Talk:Westfield High School (Virginia)/Archive 2

Assess for Schools Project
I must compliment the editor of this page. The page is still clearly about the school and not about recent events. I have given it a B based on the good references. The alumni list sometimes contains explanations of who they are. However one goes on much too long - if he is that interesting then he would have his own page. I have set this as high as I expect this school will receive a lot of attention. Thanks for submitting. This page needs to be reassessed in a year or so (at least) when its importance will be clearer. Some of the lists are ephemeral (ie will anyone be interested in a few years time). Thank you. Victuallers 07:40, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Notable Alumni, and archiving some talk
The Alumni section should be changed to "Notable Alumni" and some people should be cut. They should only be listed if they are famous or notable somehow. Being a college athlete isn't notable unless the person is a top athlete, one that might be worty of a Wikipedia article. That drummer isn't notable unless the band is notable somehow. And so on.

Also some of the stuff on this talk page should be archived, it's old and outdated. --Howdybob 05:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It had been "Notable alumni" until someone changed it earlier today. I changed it back. Closenplay 13:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Per the criticisms comment, I know from my personal experiences and from friends that some them continue. Unfortuntly, as a public high school there can be no real citations; to delete them would also mean erasing 3/4 of the article anyway. Zidel333 16:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Possible Citation
Westfield was mentioned by the Anderson Cooper 360 blog today. []. Zidel333 19:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * More permanent link to the specific entry. Arsonal 20:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Criticism section
I suggest merging criticism points with the rest of the article. For example, criticism of school size can be put into the building addition section to get a more wholistic point of view. Arsonal 20:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, also I think a History section can be done as needed. Zidel333 23:20, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The Criticism section ought to be removed in its entirety, as it is completely uncited - there is precedent - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:La_Salle_College_High_School/Archive1. If there are citations for this stuff, lets get them out here Brett 02:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Current Event
Westfield has gained national attention now for the 2nd time in a year becuase of shooters who graduated from this school. Also, FCPS has a media ban on the school banning all news and sports reporters. And werent some students here just arrested for armed robbery? I'm thinking this all needs a palce in the article. KeepOnTruckin Complain to me 03:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm looking for citations right now Truckin for both. I think there may have been a Washington Post write up for the robbers. The media has several possible citations already. Zidel333 03:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I found a citation for the armed robberies Teens Charged in Robberies, however 1) it doesn't state the suspects names as they are juveniles, and 2) doesn't mention they are Westfield students. I'll keep looking, but this is all that I've found so far. Zidel333 04:00, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * HEres a county page, says they were arrested at Westfield, but why else would they be there except if they were students? KeepOnTruckin Complain to me 04:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It acceptable to me if both citations are used in conjugation together. If there no objections, we should put it up. Zidel333 04:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Any luck with the University of Wisconsin Cease and Desist citation? FoundUW targets schools using its helmet logo but doesn't mention Westfield by name. Zidel333 04:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Apparently Westfield Alums are being contacted by various newsagencies and groups via Facebook to help them on sensationalistic articles about Monday. And from what I understand, these articles are not positive by any means. Indeed, there were referred to as tabloids, and gossip by those involved. These groups include but are not limited to : USA Today, Washington Times, the Today Show, and especially, Splash News. Just a heads up. Zidel333 05:52, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Due to restrictions on media presence on the Westfield campus, only a few media agencies have reports about today's memorial pep rally. One is this: I have photos from it that I can use for the article when I get back to school. Arsonal 23:22, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

We have another arrest involving firearms. Arsonal 00:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * And this story confirms that the four arrested in February were Westfield students. Closenplay 01:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

History Section / Cho & Kennedy section needed
There needs to some sort of History section for the article, which could explain Cho and Kennedy's connection to WHS. Perhaps even a sub section dealing with them alone. Personally, I think this would work better than the current version, why has them simply as Notable Alumni, while true, does not detail the sitation as it should be written. Any thoughts? Zidel333 04:40, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I was actually just thinking about that. TJHSST does a "Recent Developments" section in their article. Arsonal 06:57, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Excellent, I think that is the next logical step for the article. I like what you have been doing to the article, it looks far nicer, and more logical now. BTW, I've requested Semi protection, and an Assessment from the WikiProject Schools group. Zidel333 07:03, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Jummy Olabanji '02 puts it really well on Westfield students' confusion and shock in her interview regarding Cho. Arsonal 00:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Amazing find, this really should be a major support for the section. Im not doing anything tonight, I think I'm going to take a go at the History Section. Zidel333 00:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Jennifer Chapman '03 on Cho: Arsonal 09:45, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * This article makes it appear that he was not bullied in HS (although just because this one girl didn't see him as picked-on, it doesn't mean that it didn't happen).


 * High school struggles with infamy, tragedy of Va. Tech killings Daily News article about the coincedence of Kennedy and Cho, features comment with past Principal Mike Campbell, as well as WHS's reaction. Zidel333 05:07, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Other Links

 * CBS Evening News wrote an article on May 6th, 2006 about the VA high school ban of energy drinks on atheletic fields, and interviewed students and faculty at Westfield for comments. I'm unsure if this can/should be used for the article, but I'm putting the link in case it can be added.


 * Soundprint Media Center Inc. did a peice about an average day in the life of Westfield High School.


 * A Westfield Group won 2nd place at States for National History Day, Senior Group Preformance.

Add other links as found. Zidel333 06:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * DECA States first place


 * Michael Kennedy's father arrested for possession


 * Westfield bans reporters

Arsonal 07:07, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Second place Foreign Extemp

Arsonal 23:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Arsonal 22:57, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Mike Greiner, English
 * Science fairs and focus on education, features former Science dept chair Jim Jarvis
 * This link about high school journalism came up while searching for Westfield, but I can't read its content, so I don't know its usefulness
 * Advertisement in FCPS schools, may feature Westfield
 * Moment of silence, Westfield context

The Impersonal Nature of Large Schools
I'm not going to revert my citation request again (removed by Arsonal), but the citation that follows "bolstering the criticism of the impersonal nature of large schools" contains no criticism of large schools whatsoever. In fact, the only mention of the school's size at all is that "Westfield is one of the largest schools in Fairfax County." Without citation, that statement reeks of POV and should be deleted. Closenplay 13:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I've removed the sentence due to issues with NPOV. Personally, I think that the section needs to expand into that area, but with direct citations. Zidel333 20:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Westfield is the largest high school in terms of population. Robinsion SS is larger but it has a middle school too. KeepOnTruckin Complain to me 22:31, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Korean American backlash
Several articles on Korean American backlash relevant to the Westfield community: ,

Music
In editing the Music section, I came away with a number of questions. I didn't want to be too bold, or overload the section with citation requests, so here are some things that should probably be addressed:
 * "Westfield's band has been named a Virginia Honor Band for both its marching band and highest concert band."
 * What year(s)?


 * "Most recently, Westfield traveled to Chicago for the Heritage Music Festival..."
 * What year?


 * "The "winter guard" placed third at finals in Raleigh, NC, in their competition."
 * What finals, what year?


 * "The chorus program under director Jessica Lardin is noted.."
 * Noted by whom?


 * "They have also performed Vivaldi's Gloria."
 * Pretty sure this is non-notable and should be deleted.


 * "In the spring, the choral program presents "Disney Dazzle," a singing and dancing revue of popular and well-known Disney songs."
 * Is this an annual event, or just an upcoming show? If annual, maybe change it to "every spring"; if just this year, either delete it, or change it to "in Spring 2007..."


 * "every Westfield orchestra that has gone to festival"
 * Is there only one "festival" or are there different ones? If only one, it should be capitalized, if different ones, it should maybe read "gone to A festival".


 * "members have also frequently held principal positions"
 * How often is frequently? Unless they really place a LOT of members, "frequently" should be removed. Closenplay 12:43, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


 * As an Orch Dork myself Closenplay, I can tell you that when musicians or teachers refer to Fesitval (sing.) it means a general competition, such as Fairfax's sponsered events in March, the annual trip such as Fiestaval, Chantilly's Jazz Invitational or numerous smaller events. As for the orchesta fact, it's true and we pride ourselves that we have always gotten Superior. Personally, I think much of this needs to be delated, because quite frankly, it will get very dated very soon. We need more editors from within WHS to help with keeping it up to date. Zidel333 18:24, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I thought I remembered Festival being a kind of catch-all term. I just wanted to throw some ideas out there; you guys (esp. you and Arsonal) are doing an awesome job with this article and I didn't want to step on any toes. I'm just jealous that my high school's article is incredibly lame in comparison to yours. I'm trying to psych myself up to help out there but the amount of research necessary is a bit daunting. Keep up the great work. Closenplay 00:21, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, West Potomac shouldn't be that bad in terms of history because it's not as old as some other schools. We can work on other FCPS schools when this improvement frenzy of Westfield dies down. There's a lot of good references out there. Arsonal 03:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * First of all, thanks for your effors, Closenplay. It's very much appreciated. I've manage to get citations for Virginia Honor Band, Disney Dazzle, and the Percussion Ensemble. I will look into getting some for the others. Arsonal 21:30, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Glad to help out. However, regarding the percussion ensemble citation: all it says about them is "eight high school concert percussion ensembles, in exhilarating performances". That's hardly "considered to be among the finest … in the country". That sentence definitely needs to be toned down to meet NPOV. Please see my above comments regarding your work on this article. Nice job. Closenplay 00:21, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll see what I can do. Arsonal 03:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

WHS Comparison to Featured School articles
So, I check out the School Wikiproject Featured Article List, and I have to say that Westfield is fast approching roughly the same number of citations, length, and dare I say it, the rough level of them. THe only real notable difference between WHS and the others is that WHS has no real history, and the lack of pop culture influences which is understanable since Westfield opened in 2000. Besides that, WHS despertly needs photos, include coordinates, more in the See Also, and perhaps a list of maps and aerial photos in the external link section from Geohack. I think this is totally doable. Any thoughts? Zidel333 22:22, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I've added in the Geohack coordinates. The campus picture in the article right now is actually stitched together from US Geological Survey satellite images (where all those satellite maps come from anyway). I took some photos of the school today, but could only get externals because the academic wing was locked down for the weekend after all that's happened this week, and I'm going back to school on Monday morning. Maybe someone can go back sometime? Arsonal 03:18, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I can try when I go home in 2 weeks for the summer, starting May 6th or so. If I take internal shots, what should I take? We don't have to use all of them, but I'm thinking of taking the following:


 * Gym
 * Football Stadium
 * Track Stadium
 * Students between classes (to show evidence of overcrowding)
 * R Hallway (the new wing)
 * library
 * music hallway
 * Aerospace Classes
 * Theatre
 * Art Section
 * Main Office area
 * Trailers
 * Trophies and Banners
 * Wall Murals
 * Commerative Boulders


 * Speaking of the Boulders, there are some Facebook pics of them memorializing Samaha and Peterson. What is the policy for taking Facebook pics? Fair Use acceptable? Zidel333 03:25, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I took pics of the murals and memorial rocks today. I'll put them up somewhere and we can decide which one to choose. I'll release it on GFDL/CC licensing. See if you can talk to Mr. Bender or Doc McCarthy about using yearbook/newspaper photos that are not by Blanton. If you saw the 2005 yearbook, there's actually a lot of good stuff on the school overpopulation. And I know this is gonna sound weird but maybe talk to the main office if we can get a digital version of westfield's crest? I'm actually not sure what the copyright situation is for works created by public school employees. Arsonal 03:36, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll try, they know me (for good or bad), and I'll see what I can do. As for the copyright question, it is my understanding that government work is free to the public. But I think that is federal, not state per se. I can ask Wikiproject Schools to see if they know. Zidel333 03:39, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * If you prefer not to, I can ask Bender. I was on yearbook staff junior/senior years. Arsonal 04:14, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * No, it's cool. Bender knows me as I was his history student, and we've had run ins with Yearbook. Dr. McCarthy knows me cause of an article, and other teachers told him about me. I can tell them you want it too if you'd think it'll help the cause. Zidel333 04:52, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I think FCPS has no problem with people taking pictures of their stuff, ive dont it before. However, if the picture has studnets in it then all studnets parents have to sign a waiver or somthing. KeepOnTruckin Complain to me 23:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Thoughts About Article
There has been some discussion that WHS is turning into some sort of principal training center, considering that it's first two principals (Dale Rumberger, and Mike Campbell) led, and then left to be principals at other schools. I've been looking for citations without really finding anything specific, and I don't even know if it's note worthy.

Also, I think it might be better to put the Controversy section farther down in the article. Unless it is incredibly notable, most Controversy sections seem to be near the bottom after all major factual info.

Any thoughts? Zidel333 03:14, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Hm, I think we should keep it near the history because it's pretty important to Westfield's short history. Maybe it'll become less important in the years to come. Arsonal 03:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, it just seems ... odd that the controversy section is larger than the Westfield's history section. Reminds me of Colbert's comparison over the Truthiness and Lutherans articles.... Zidel333 03:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I heard Campbell moved to Cville HS becuase it was closer to where he lived. I know this to be true becuase he lives down the street from me.

On a side note, does anyone find it interesting that the school motto is "Proud of our past..." KeepOnTruckin Complain to me 21:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Bizarre coincidence I think, though it evokes the response to the VT massacre. It was the theme since the beginning of the year (they change it from year to year) that was displayed on the website. Arsonal 22:09, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Holy crap Arsonal, SIXTY ONE citations?!?! Zidel333 22:42, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Google works, especially Google News. We're almost at Stuy's citation amount. I think we can eventually reduce the number of citations if there are articles that can sum up a bunch on information in its entirety. I'd say a quarter of the citations are about Cho and Reg 1320.1. It's also all over the place because there are tons of articles in the Washington Post that are pay-per-view, so I can't judge how much information is in there. Arsonal 22:47, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, unfortunatly it is due to the fact its only the previews we're relying on. My friend suggested going to the Centreville Library to look up printed Washington Post articles instead of using the online versions, but that seems incredibly excessive. Besides, that would be the final step before i know I'm addicted to Wikipedia, and have to go on a extended Wikibreak. Yowza. Zidel333 23:04, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * That is a good hope, but the citations are so specific I would think it would be hard to find a good citation that covers a section of info, excepting of course Kennedy, and maybe Cho. Good work, and I mean that. If WHS ever becomes FA, or beats TJHSST, I owe you a drink. :) Zidel333 22:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Does that qualify as a Bounty? LoL. Zidel333 22:57, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Alumni Listing
I suggest cutting out Kennedy, Cho, Samaha, and Peterson from the list. Stuyvesant High School didn't include their alumni list killed on September 11 in their list of Stuy people. The people were incorporated into the September 11 section of the article. Arsonal 02:19, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, but that would make it POV and we at wikipedia strive for a NPOV style of writing, that is, covering both or all sides of the story. KeepOnTruckin Complain to me 03:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I meant since we already have them mentioned in the actual article, do we need them mentioned again on the list? Arsonal 03:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I would say yes, look at the West Point article, it mentions specific alumni, and then relists them on the Notable alumni list. Readers look at the lists as the info is right there, whereas having alumni buried within the sections would mean they have to dig to get the info, and potentially not be realized as notable per se. Zidel333 03:40, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

State Champions
Should we cut out the individual state champions? I saw the trophy case at Westfield and it's getting way too long. Unless it's something really notable, I don't think anyone will be interested in all of the individual state champions. Schools are usually only notable for team state champions, not that it's any more important that individual ones. Arsonal 02:54, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * There were two things I noticed when I first saw Westfield HS in 2003: 1, it was overcrowded, and 2, they needed more trophy cases. So yes, I think the individual champs sould be gotten rid of unless they are esp. notable. KeepOnTruckin Complain to me 03:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I say keep, the trophies can come from any source: invitational, regional, local, private, etc. etc. but State championships are Virginia wide, and as such, I think more notable, especially considering that WHS is only seven years old.


 * Bear in mind, that NO article lists individual, and excepting Plano Senior High School, even bothers with team lists. This is unknown territory. Zidel333 03:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The trophy case for individual state champions (the names engraved on metal cards on a board) is a lot of people. It's hard to maintain this list anyway if we don't have a current student helping us. We already mentioned football and track states in the article. Theater can be easily incorporated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arsonal (talk • contribs) 04:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC).


 * I think an commitment to review the Virginia High School League (VHSL) site to review any updates could take care of that. I think the music and sport sections are more hazadous due to the dating of its information, for that will need insides at WHS to help us. Also, bear in mind Arsonal I will have siblings at WHS for the next ten years, so I can use them to keep tabs for me, or I myself can go when I visit home. That being said, I will abide by your decision. Zidel333 04:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Arsonal's Reorganization
Arsonal, I know what you're trying to do, but I don't like it.There is no real precedent for your reorganization. Virtually all FA universities list alumni at the very bottom of their articles, the champions should be in Extracuricual or in Other, and Community should be worked in elseway. Zidel333 04:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I was actually going to move the Community and State Champions section up above students and alumni, but I didn't because I'm not sure where community should go, and the champions table needs some makeover. Arsonal 04:51, 23 April 2007 (UTC)