Talk:Westfield High School (Virginia)/Archive 3

GA Review
Although this is a pretty good article, it's not quite up to Good Article. I'll first give the basic overview of how it compares to the six criteria, then I'll list my suggestions below.
 * GA review (see here for criteria)


 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
 * 1) It is stable.
 * 2) It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
 * a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA):  c (non-free images have fair use rationales):
 * 1) Overall:
 * a Pass/Fail:
 * a Pass/Fail:

Images

 * I recommend changing the pixel size of the last image, Image:Whsbulldog.jpg, to shrink it closer to its original size thereby decreasing the distortion. ✅
 * Upon rescanning the article I noticed that Image:Whs.gif is appropriately tagged but is missing a fair use rationale. If you have any questions about this, let me know. -- Lara Love Talk / Contribs  16:31, 2 May 2007 (UTC) ✅

Lead

 * "At 3,232 students, it is the largest 4-year high school in the Commonwealth of Virginia."
 * "4-year" needs to become "four-year". Needs citation. ✅

History

 * "By 2005, Westfield had grown so large that it had become the largest 4-year high school in Virginia. In its peak, the school had 34 trailers to deal with excess students. An additional wing was planned to help deal with the overcrowding, which was completed in summer of 2006."
 * "4-year" needs to become "four-year". Needs citation. ✅


 * "...the university administration issued a cease and desist letter to Westfield for its usage of the symbol."
 * Needs citation.

Note: I can not find a source that backs up this statement. If one can not be found, it needs to be removed. ✅

Regulation 1320.1

 * "Local radio station DC101's Elliot In the Morning show held a contest in fall 2004 for area high school students whose winners will host alternative rock band Taking Back Sunday at their school.[citation needed]... "
 * Replace the citation needed tag with Reference 14. Move Reference 13 to after the "Taking Back Tuesday" information of Campbell's address.

Note: Ref 14 is currently used twice in this paragraph. It is not a valid source for showing the school won the contest. It's also not the correct reference for the end of the paragraph. 13 would be. (I believe the ref numbers have switched around a bit since initial reviewing, so that makes this a little more confusing.) 15 would be a good ref to place behind "November 16." The first sentence also needs to be reworded for past tense. If this is too confusing, let me know. ✅
 * I hope the current ordering is what you were looking for? Let me know if it still needs changing. Arsonal 04:36, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * You were close. I fixed it. -- Lara Love Talk / Contribs  05:52, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Violence Controversies

 * "Further information: Virginia Tech massacre and Seung-Hui Cho."
 * I'm not sure what the correct format would be for this. Personally, I think it would make more sense for "Further Information" to be placed after the paragraph rather than before it. ✅

Campus
Note: There is still quite a bit of unreferenced information here. Note: There is mention of 34 trailers multiple times in this article (see History, Campus, Overcrowding). None of which are sourced. It seems unnecessary to mention them so many times. And if there is nothing published that talks about them, the statements need to be removed. Additionally, information in this section that can not be referenced needs to be removed.
 * There is not one reference is this section.
 * It's in the yearbook from 2005. I'll get it referenced here soon. Arsonal 00:04, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Overcrowding

 * "Westfield is often criticized as grossly overpopulated."
 * Says who? ✅


 * "When the school opened, the unincorporated communities of Centreville and Chantilly had grown so large that another high school should have been built to deal with the number of students."
 * Reads like a personal opinion. ✅


 * "By the 2005–2006 academic year, the school was over its capacity by 30 percent, and 34 trailers filled the parking lot originally designated for faculty and staff along with additional ground space surrounding the school's main building." ✅
 * Needs citation.
 * this is based on teh calculations that the school has a carrying capacity of 2500, and was roughly 30% overcrowded by said year. Does it still need citation if it is basic math? Zidel333 06:13, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * What I was most bothered by was the mention of 34 trailers three times in this article. To be mentioned so much, it must be important... not really. But I feel like if it's going to be mentioned multiple times, it should have a reference. As it is now, everything looks fine, as far as this goes. -- Lara Love Talk / Contribs  04:05, 6 May 2007 (UTC)


 * "The bond was approved in November of the same year, and construction for the massive new wing began in summer of 2005. Construction was completed in time for the 2006–2007 school year.It has two levels and a basement and houses most of the award-winning aerospace program. Due to Westfield's overpopulation, however, 18 trailers still remain."
 * Needs citation.

Note: Use your yearbook for reference. I see no reason this wouldn't be appropriate. It's a reliable, published work which would not be impossible for someone to get ahold of and verify. Be sure to source it using the appropriate template.
 * What is the correct template for a yearbook? I have several and you can get the from FCPS's adminstrative place, or maybe the school main office. Maybe a new tamplate for a yearbook? this would drastically improve all school articles. KeepOnTruckin Complain to me 21:19, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I used the template. It's usually for journals, but the parameters kind of fit for the time being. Arsonal 00:09, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Community use

 * "Chinese language and cultural elective classes are held on Sunday afternoons in the new building addition."
 * Needs citation. ✅

Academics

 * Much of this section is without references. ✅

Athletics

 * Much of this section is without references. ✅

Music

 * "Students from these programs have gone on to schools such as the Peabody Institute, the University of Cincinnati College-Conservatory of Music, the Eastman School of Music, the Boston University School of Music, and the Sydney Conservatorium of Music."
 * Citation needed. ✅
 * I took this statement out as it is rather pointless, and I don't believe it to be worthy of mentioning. Feel free to disagree or place it back in the article. Zidel333 06:14, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It needs to stay out if there can be no sources found. Additional info mentioned above and below still needs to be taken care of. Remove some additional information while you're at it. -- Lara Love Talk / Contribs  04:27, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * "In 2005, both Jazz Black Gold and Combo received an "Excellent" rating, and Jazz I received a "Superior" rating at the Chantilly Invitational Jazz Festival (where Westfield's Guitar Combo also received a unanimous "Superior" rating). Most recently, Westfield traveled to Chicago for the Heritage Music Festival, where every band that Westfield brought placed first in its category. Additionally, the top three scores awarded to wind bands went to Westfield bands."
 * Citation needed. ✅


 * "The orchestra is headed by Gregory Rupert..."
 * Whole paragraph needs citation(s). ✅

Literary Publications

 * "Calliope not only accepts submissions for its literary and art magazine, but it also hosts Coffeehouses in the fall and spring, where student bands, guitarists, and poets perform live. Each year, it also hosts a film festival for videos made by Westfield students."
 * Citation needed. ✅


 * "The Guardian yearbook in particular has been awarded numerous awards, including the Yearbook Pacemaker Award [48]" Note: It is now reference [59]. ✅
 * According to the reference, the yearbook did not win this award, although it was nominated for it. The text needs to be edited to reflect that.


 * "The Watchdog newspaper has received a Superior rating from..."
 * Citation needed. ✅

Clubs and organizations

 * Honors societies list needs reference. ✅
 * DECA needs to be spelled out and the acronym put in parenthasis. Disregard.
 * Reference info on academic teams. ✅
 * "Both Future Business Leaders of America (FBLA-PBL) and DECA have their own chapters for business and marketing students. FBLA-PBL members compete in regional, state, and national competitions in business-related categories." ✅
 * "Fielding one of the largest student participation in the county, the Junior Varsity and Varsity Mathematics League teams regularly compete in the Virginia Mathematics League (VAML) and Fairfax County Mathematics League (FCML)." ✅
 * "The Westfield Debate Team won first place in the Washington-Arlington Catholic Forensic League Congress Metrofinals in both 2005–2006 and 2006–2007 seasons. The Debate team has won distinctions at the regional VHSL competition in Student Congress. It placed second in the 2006 State Student Congress Finals. The Forensics team won first place in the 2007 district competition." ✅
 * Congress metrofinals results are pretty hard to navigate . I tried looking at the various results, but it's way too extensive to get an overall picture. Can someone take a look at it and help me pinpoint the location. Arsonal 00:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

UPDATE - Thursday 5/3


 * I'll look into it. I see where two students placed, but it doesn't say first place. Some of this information you want to include just may not make it in. The article is growing quite a bit; Not all of this information is necessary for an encyclopedia. It won't hurt the quality of this article to trim it down some... this would be a good opportunity to remove unsourced information and get the article promoted to GA. Run back through this list from top to bottom to see what's left. You're almost done. -- Lara Love Talk / Contribs  03:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC) ✅


 * In this section, where the forensic team information is, there's a sentence about the debate team in the middle. Restructure the paragraph to keep the forensic team information together. I would suggest putting the debate team sentence first, followed by the forensic team information. That keeps 2004 stats together while also keeping the respective teams together. -- Lara Love Talk / Contribs  03:50, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Note: I can't find any sources that mention WHS It's Academic team participating in VHSL events. Same goes for NBC 4 information. ✅
 * "Westfield also has had an Odyssey of the Mind team in the 2003–2004 school year as well as the 2004–2005 school year. Both years, the team won the regional competition, placed in the state competition and went on to compete in the World Finals."
 * This is also in the yearbook. I was the captain of the winning 2005 team. Unfortunately, NBC doesn't keep season records online despite It's Academic being a regular weekend program for 45 years. In addition, VHSL academic team tournaments don't have a central recording system, rather the host schools would have thos records, so it's pretty hard to find them online. One possibility is digging through the TJHSST academic team site because they keep a record of their tournaments. Arsonal 04:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It doesn't have to be an online publication. If there is anything published with this information--a yearbook, newspaper article, etc--it's fine for use. Possibly check with your school? -- Lara Love Talk / Contribs  06:04, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Overall
 Original research (OR) is a term used in Wikipedia to refer to unpublished facts, arguments, concepts, statements, or theories. ...the only way to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research is to cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and to adhere to what those sources say. (Just because you know it to be true doesn't make it appropriate for an encyclopedia. ALL information must be cited).

Good Article Criteria 3c states that an article can contain NO original research. This article is currently riddled with it. Another issue is stability, which I voted fail. There are no edit wars, but this article has a great deal of information being added and removed daily. Once it's achieved GA, it's going to need to be left near as-is. No great deal of changes, otherwise it will have to be reviewed again.

Considering the current quality of the article, I'm putting this review on hold for no more than one week. When the above issues have been addressed--and if there is no great deal of other edits--I'll approve the nomination. However, if citations are not added and/or information continues to flow in and out at the current volume, it will be failed until the issue(s) have been resolved at which time it can be renominated. Thank you for your work so far. -- Lara Love Talk / Contribs  19:07, 28 April 2007 (UTC)


 * First of all, thank you for your thorough review, Lara. It definitely helps in our improvement of the article.


 * I'd like to address several concerns:


 * I contemplated using the high school yearbook and newspaper as sources for citation, but I have seen no other precedent for it, so I'm not sure if it's allowed or not. That will give citations to many of the uncited information in the article, especially regarding the overcrowding of Westfield and other recent information. Unfortunately, neither of those school publications have an online version or website either.
 * DECA is no longer known by its original name "Distributive Education Clubs of America". That information can be found on the linked article. The other name "Delta Chi Epsilon" only applies if the organization is one in a university.
 * I can provide an English citation for alumna Jessica Zhang, but you should know that although the page states "2005 Wushu Team", team trials are held every 2 years, so the current 2007 trials have not been held yet. Zhang is still a member of the team currently.


 * I will look into the rest of your notes. Arsonal 06:10, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll see what I can find out about using a high school yearbook as a source. I, personally, would think it would be fine, but I really don't know. As for DECA, is see that now. Leave it as is, it's fine. And the 2005 english source for Jessica is good. -- Lara Love Talk / Contribs  18:04, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Updated Progress Everything seems to be going well. Keep up the good work. It's looking much better! I've gone through the list and marked off what has been done. Hopefully this will help keep up the motivation! -- Lara Love Talk / Contribs  18:33, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

First Reference
There is an issue with the first reference. It doesn't state the Westfield is the largest school in VA. In the research I have done, everything seems to state "one of the largest,", which is not uncommon. Forsyth Medical Center is the largest hospital in NC, but all the references I could find said "one of," so that's what the article reads.

Regardless, even reading into the excel document; the largest school, with 4,081 students, is Robinson Secondary (line 469). It doesn't specify in the document that Robinson is a combined middle and high school. For that purpose, I recommend a second reference be added so that there is no confusion. Additionally, the current reference needs to be edited to include that it's on line 495 of "School Totals by Grade," and I recommend that the text in the lead and the article be changed to reflect that it's "one of the largest..." ✅

Here's a possible reference for you to use: -- Lara Love Talk / Contribs  16:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * We actually already used that reference elsewhere, but I can't recall the article saying largest specifically. I could only find this article that directly mentions Westfield as the largest school. Arsonal 18:43, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It says largest school in the county. You can use the same reference more than once. Just name it. It's first use should have Subsequent uses will be . -- Lara Love  Talk / Contribs  20:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Major Problem
Someone please look over this site and tell me what the problem may be. -- Lara Love Talk / Contribs  18:49, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * LaraLove, I've looked over this site, but I don't understand what the "major problem" is. It looks like the site just copied pasted the WHS article into their commerical webpage, which is quite frequent with any Wikipedia article. I don't believe the site is cited, or was considered for a reference.... Pray tell, what is the issue? Zidel333 19:05, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The information there's quite old. Westfield was at 2,900 students 2 years ago. Why does the top say "You searched for 127484521 on Wikipedia. Find this info below, or use our advanced search page."? Arsonal 00:14, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I've enlisted some help from a fellow editor and looked into the history of this article to see which came first--the chicken or the egg, so to speak--regarding this article and that website. Initially I thought it must be the site because of it's copyright status, but upon further review I've concluded that it was the work of many editors over a long period of time that wrote the version of this article that is displayed on that website.

Wikipedia is licensed under GNU Free Documentation License (see Copyrights). This principle is known as copyleft. That is to say, Wikipedia content can be copied, modified, and redistributed so long as the new version grants the same freedoms to others and acknowledges the authors of the Wikipedia article used (a direct link back to the article satisfies our author credit requirement). That site violates that principle considering it states it is copyrighted and gives no mention of Wikipedia.

As far as the sentence at the top, on my computer it reads, "You searched for Virginia Mathematics League %28VAML%29 and Fairfax County Mathematics League %28FCML%29 Westfield on Google. Find this info below, or use our advanced search page." I use Google as my default search engine... I'd assume that's why mine reads Google.

Regardless, we're moving forward with the GA/n and a fellow editor is going to help me out with dealing with that website. I apologize for any confusion and also for doubting the fine work of all those who have contributed to this article. -- Lara Love Talk / Contribs  04:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Regarding the site, there's information at Mirrors and forks about what to do in this situation. Zidel333, since you wrote a large amount of the content here, you hold a substantial share of the copyright to it and would be the best one to contact the site if you want to.  There are also some sample contact letters at Standard GFDL violation letter.  ShadowHalo 04:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll work on it now then. Finished the letter, and sent it off to the two email addresses I could find from the website. I will follow the Mirror and Forks policies until I get a response from the website, or will be forced to send a DMCA Takedown Notice to Public School Review's ISP. Thanks for the help. PS I wasn't aware this was such a problem for Wikipedia. Zidel333 05:08, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. And good work. ShadowHalo noted that his high school, which he'd written much of the content for, was also on that website using the Wikipedia article. I checked out West Forsyth High School and found the same thing. So this is common practice for them, apparently. -- Lara Love Talk / Contribs  06:00, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Article Question
LaraLove, as a member of the Wikiproject in charge of GAs, what is the procedure of when an article is updated relatively frequently (say, a major change every 3-6 months, with considerable additions on a yearly basis) to it's quality status? I'm certain that WHS will have continuous major changes as it is a public high school, and that is to be expected. Because of this, will the WHS article be allowed to keep any status higher than B if citations, writing etc.etc. are up to snuff? Or will it require annual reviews to ensure its quality? Zidel333 16:04, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Requirement 5 of the GA criteria is that the article must be stable. This is to say there are no edit wars and that it does not change significantly from day to day. Articles of living persons, functioning companies, current television shows, performing artists, etc. must be updated regularly in order to stay accurate, therefore it is not a disqualification for GA that an article receives updated information on a regular/semi-regular basis.


 * Once promoted to GA, there will be a tag placed on the talk page. It will specify that if anyone considers the article to no longer meet GA standards they should attempt to improve it, nominate it for review, or delist it. As a major contributing editor to this article--and someone who will probably be doing many of the future updates--you simply need to remember:
 * All statements must be sourced; Just because you know it's true doesn't make it encyclopedic.
 * Stay focused; Information that may be important to you may not be interesting to everyone else and, therefore, does not belong in an encyclopedia. This is where WP:COI comes in.


 * If you ever question the quality of this article in the future, feel free to leave me a message on my talk page and I'll review it. -- Lara Love Talk / Contribs  03:39, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

End of ON HOLD status approaching
Time is running out on the hold. To avoid having to renominate and wait for a second review, the necessary changes need to be made.
 * Any statements that can't be backed up by a reference need to be removed.
 * I will make final changes tonight. We can always rewrite these statements when the appropriate references are found. Arsonal 19:13, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Correct issues in sources.
 * I kept the Chinese language source as a citation that Zhang was in fact featured in SINA. There would be no other possible reference for this. Arsonal 19:13, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I removed the SINA ref since Zhang is notable for being on the Wushu team, not because she was covered by a news organization. It's a subtle distinction. Zedla 06:50, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Add fair use rationale to shield image.
 * Added Fair Use rationale for Image:Whs.gif, but I cannot find where its URL. Arsonal, did you scan this? Zidel333 06:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I got it from an old course catalog that also had an online version. Unfortunately, the online version is no longer there, and the current version doesn't have the cover page with the crest. Arsonal 19:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Since the initial review, the article has grown approximately 12KB bringing it up to almost 62KB. Considering certain things shouldn't be factored into length (tables, lists, images, footnotes, references, external links, etc), it's not 62KB of readable prose, but it's still long. If it continues to grow, per WP:SIZE, it will need to be divided into separate articles. For the time being, focus on the issues at hand. Once the article has gained GA status, discuss possible options for splitting the article... which will be necessary considering it will continue to grow with time, as mentioned above. -- Lara Love Talk / Contribs  03:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * While I think dividing it up is great, I have seen several AFDs for school sub-articles. For some reason, some Wikipedians dont like having school articles and 1 article per school is too many. Jsut my thoughts. Good work. KeepOnTruckin Complain to me 20:16, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It depends on what you pull out to place in a separate article. Notability is a big deal, so pulling the Extracurricular activities section and building an article would probably not go over well. However, the Violence controversies would make a great article. There would just need to be additional information, but it could be great. And this article could stand to lose a little. -- Lara Love Talk / Contribs  01:31, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Today is the last day
I will be making my final review of the article when I return home from work—approximately 11pm EST—tonight. If the issues above are not completed, the article will be failed. When the issues have been completed, it can be renominated. I look forward to seeing your changes and hope the nomination will be a pass. -- Lara Love Talk / Contribs  04:31, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Everything should be in order now. Arsonal 07:53, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

References needed for statements
The following statements have been removed from the article to allow approval of GA/n while we search for viable sources.

History

 * "In 2007, as part of the University of Wisconsin's efforts to uphold its trademark "Motion W" symbol, the university administration issued a cease and desist letter to Westfield for its usage of the symbol."

Clubs and organizations

 * "FBLA-PBL members compete in regional, state, and national competitions in business-related categories."
 * "Fielding one of the largest student participation in the county, the Junior Varsity and Varsity Mathematics League teams regularly compete in the Virginia Mathematics League (VAML) and Fairfax County Mathematics League (FCML)."
 * "The debate team won first place in the Washington-Arlington Catholic Forensic League Congress Metrofinals in both 2005–2006 and 2006–2007 seasons."
 * "Westfield also has had an Odyssey of the Mind team in the 2003–2004 school year as well as the 2004–2005 school year. Both years, the team won the regional competition, placed in the state competition and went on to compete in the World Finals."

Notable alumni
Note: Partial sentence removal only. Arsonal 07:54, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * "Jessica Zhang '05 — Member of the US National Wushu Team, featured by the Chinese-language SINA news agency. "

Final GA Review

 * GA review (see here for criteria)


 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
 * 1) It is stable.
 * 2) It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
 * a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA):  c (non-free images have fair use rationales):
 * 1) Overall:
 * a Pass/Fail:
 * a Pass/Fail:

Comments
There are still some minor issues to be taken care of, but overall this is a good article. Job well done. Although it has been promoted to GA, these issues still need to be addressed. (Some of these appear to be new statement not present during original review) That's it. Thanks to everyone who worked so hard to raise the quality of this article to Good Article. You all should be proud. -- Lara Love Talk / Contribs  04:27, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Last paragraph of Overcrowding: "...and houses most of the award-winning aerospace program." Citation.
 * Under Music: "Every Westfield orchestra that has gone to Festival has received a final rating of "Superior"—the highest score possible. Orchestra members have also held principal positions in the VBODA Senior Regional and All-State Orchestras." Citations.
 * Under Literary publications, concerning The Watchdog: "It also has one of the largest circulations for a high school newspaper in the western Fairfax County area because the newspaper is mailed home to families of students free of charge." Citation.
 * References 93 and 97 are the same. The reference should be named to create 93 a b . Just kidding.
 * Thanks very much Lara! Your advice and guidance helped very much. On another note, refs 93 and 97 are different. One's for debate, the other for forensics, can see from the URL. Shhhh... I didn't say anything about that... you were only imagining it... you need sleep... yes... sleep... Arsonal 05:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. It was a pleasure. It's really nice to review an article and actually get a response from those working on it and the one that nominated it. Your hard work and that of Zidel333 was great. You should both be proud—along with everyone else who helped—because improving an article to Good Article quality improves the quality of Wikipedia. Just maintain it. Revert unsourced edits and keep out the OR. Also, remember WP:COI. Don't let the article get too long with information not important enough for inclusion in an encyclopedia. Also consider splitting the article, if possible... particularly as it continues to grow. Considering the large number of awards the academic and athletic teams have/will probably obtain, I would think a separate article for those would survive.


 * Let me know if you ever need anything relating to this article or otherwise. -- Lara Love Talk / Contribs  05:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC)