Talk:Westgate shopping mall attack/Archive 2

Floor collapse
This article and the one for the mall itself state that three floors "of the mall" collapsed, but aeral and ground-level images being published today appear to show the collapse occurred in the parking garage, not the mall proper. 68.146.70.124 (talk) 18:59, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Source?(Lihaas (talk) 11:46, 28 September 2013 (UTC)).

Infobox: missing people
Theres reports of over 50 people still missing in the attack, not included in the number of victims. Shouldn't the infobox have a number of missing people as well? Jørgen88 (talk) 19:52, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There is a lot of uncertainty - "Kenya's Red Cross has said that 61 people remain unaccounted for. However Interior Minister Joe Lenku has said that he does not expect the toll to rise significantly."  Best to avoid estimates until more is confirmed, in my view.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:01, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I've also seen reports that there are bogus missing person reports that have been filed. I'd suggest in the "victims" section you could add the KRC's claims, as a claim (not as an absolutely statement that 61 people are TRULY missing).--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:45, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree with Obi-Wan Kenobi. (what a change? ;))(Lihaas (talk) 11:54, 28 September 2013 (UTC)).

ex irish army ranger wing and ex british SAS
Several newspapers   have reported  that an ex irish ARW and  british SAS saved 500 people,http://www.thestar.ie/star/ex-irish-army-ranger-killed-terrorists-and-saved-500-lives-in-nairobi-33759/   http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/africa/ex-irish-army-ranger-helped-evacuate-nairobi-shoppers-1.1540066   Would this  be note worthy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.45.128.114 (talk) 12:11, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Sounds like Die Hard with a Vengeance ;-) --  Ohc  ¡digame!¿que pasa? 14:51, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Great story. If true, he deserves a fri@@in' medal! Suggest waiting till more sources confirm story, especially "saved 500 lives". May turn out to be bogus, or over hyped. -λ-220  of  Borg 16:07, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Shooting?
Let's get serious here ... even if it is not PC to call it terrorism, this is much more than a shooting ... it is at the very least an attack/occupation/hostage situation. The above discussion also supports this. Who is the person going against consensus> --65.51.209.126 (talk) 12:40, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * it's standard for RM discussions to go for 7 days - in this case there is a clear consensus forming, so it could be closed earlier, but I'd give it at least a day or two more, and then hope someone uninvolved decides to close it (I would, but I already !voted)--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Tense
Please see this discussion. Thanks.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 06:54, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Content removed
I removed the last sentence of the 2nd paragraph of the section titled "Shootings and initial siege" with this edit. Here is the text with the citation:


 * Yariv Kedar said that he was at lunch when he heard the firing.

The text does not add anything to the article and in fact does not even mention that said lunch was at the mall and not just nearby. The cited article gives interesting details about his experience and escape, but little about the incident or the perpetrators not already presented. Perhaps if we expanded to mention he was at a mall restaurant and escaped 30 to 40 minutes after the first explosion along with his lunch companion, it might add to the article. But I am not sure such details are needed.

Another option is a further reading section at the bottom and mention this article as being about an Israeli weekend visitor's account.

Richard-of-Earth (talk) 19:33, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree that it adds nothing, and we don't miss anything by it no longer being there. --  Ohc  ¡digame!¿que pasa? 01:31, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: move to Westgate shopping mall attack. --  tariq abjotu  23:33, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Westgate shopping mall shooting → Westgate shopping mall siege – The current title implies it is only a shooting. It should be renamed to Westgate shopping mall siege or, alternatively, Westgate shopping mall hostage crisis. Michael5046 (talk) 19:34, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: I would prefer Westgate shopping mall attack.  It was undeniably an attack.  Shootings were a part of it, as was the siege - but the word "attack" encompasses the whole crisis.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:50, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. I have no problem with the word "attack", but the article title needs some geographical context by including either of the words "Nairobi" or "Kenya" within the title. WWGB (talk) 00:59, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * What about Nairobi shopping mall attack? Is that sufficiently specific though?  Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:02, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That would have my support. WWGB (talk) 13:40, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment Given the usual disambiguations, Westgate shopping mall attack is sufficient. kencf0618 (talk) 02:02, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: Support Westgate shopping mall attack.-- ♦Ian Ma c  M♦  (talk to me) 05:04, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: I'm fine with 'Westgate shopping mall attack' title too. --  Ohc  ¡digame!¿que pasa? 06:10, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: Westgate shopping mall attack would be the most natural location for this article. 168.12.253.66 (talk) 13:24, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * comment: I !vote for Westgate shopping mall attack as well.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:07, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: I vote for Westgate shopping mall attack; it's more comprehensive than shooting or siege. --Article editor (talk) 07:03, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Bungled rescue Mission
PORK - President of the Republic of Kenya acknowledges that the rescue mission was bungled and this lead to friendly fire between the armed forces. The friendly fire resulted in the death of three army officers and one GSU officer who works under the elite Recce company. See [www.the-star.co.ke/news/article-138924/westgate-operation-was-bungled-uhuru] Fedelis4198 (talk) 16:21, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Bogus
Bogus refugee Hassan Abdi Dhuhulow was one of the killers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.183.73.93 (talk) 15:14, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
 * That name has certainly appeared in reliable sources like this, and I've now added it to the article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:27, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Links to do
[ http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/12/westgate-mall-crackdown-brings-fear-anger-20131223114810957153.html .> Westgate Mall crackdown brings fear and anger](Lihaas (talk) 10:24, 21 October 2013 (UTC)).

Links
(Lihaas (talk) 19:19, 4 December 2013 (UTC)).

Casualty numbers
Does anyone know which casualty number is correct? this page claims at 'least 71' (without providing a source) while 2012–13 terrorist attacks in Kenya claims 'at least 39'. --paulkeller (talk) 15:06, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Israeli connection
There is no evidence of any Israeli military involvement. If there is going to be a reference to military advisers being "reported to have participated in the counter-offensive against the hostage takers and to have joined in the fighting", it should at least say "there were unconfirmed rumours that etc".Royalcourtier (talk) 07:02, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Looting
Has there been any official confirmation or denial of the looting report?

I suggest deleting the inappropriate American slang term "lockdown". The mall was under siege.Royalcourtier (talk) 07:04, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Controversy
I would like to re-submit :Re this edit: It is encyclopedic detailed organized and categoized attributable already-published public information; and a benefit to public knowledge as any wikipedia entry.--UduXus (talk) 08:00, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Television documentary
Re this edit: all it tells the reader is that there was a television documentary about the shooting. This is not telling the reader much that is surprising, notable or encyclopedic.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 06:57, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed; no need to mention it unless the documentary itself is found to be notable. Regards, Orange Suede Sofa  (talk) 19:44, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

"unidentified gunmen"
The attackers asked victims/hostages questions about the Quran/Islam and whoever did not know the correct answer was shot. Even if you do not want to support the claim of the extremist Muslim organization, the perpetrators were obviously Muslim terrorists, Muslim fundamentalists, Islamists, whatever you want to call them (see FN 68-71). Please do not call them "unidentified gunmen" if you want to remain impartial. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.105.160.157 (talk) 10:37, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * In this instance,"unidentified" means that the names of the gunmen were not known. The article does not hide the fact that Islamist extremists claimed responsibility for the attack. I wonder if any progress has been made since 2013 in naming the gunmen, but could not find any sourcing on this. Some sourcing on the mystery here.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 11:11, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Ex-soldier heroes?
I found this article from a couple years ago stating that a former British soldier and an ex-Irish Army Ranger helped rescue civilians during the attack. Is this story unconfirmed, and thus why it's not on this page? Here's the article: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mystery-irish-hero-saved-hundreds-of-terrified-shoppers-trapped-in-nairobi-29608137.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:248:8005:2600:3D54:8E39:E888:3231 (talk) 00:39, 17 November 2016 (UTC)