Talk:Westland Scout

Engines
Our 2nd para of the Design and development section says:
 * The P.531 was developed with the 635 shp Bristol Siddeley Nimbus and the 685 shp de Havilland Gnome H.1000 engine, which flew from 3 May 1960. The production Scout AH.1 used a 1050 shp Rolls-Royce (RR having acquired Bristol Siddeley by then) Nimbus 101 engine, torque limited to 685 shp, and achieved its first flight on 29 August 1960. The Nimbus power ratings were 1050 shp for five minutes, 685 shp for one hour and 650 shp could be maintained up to 7000 ft at 30 degrees Celsius.

But, looking for a source for this, I came across: this article which says similar things - but not the same things (eg: "The first Scout AH Mk 1 for the Army flew on August 4, 1960"). Hence CN the tag. It doesn't look like something anyone would make up so, hopefully, whoever put it there would be able to add the source. --Bye for now (PTT) 14:47, 15 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Nothing reliable but XP165 first flew on the 29 August 1960 (the first production aircraft) but the second helicopter XP167 actually flew before it on 4 August 1960. Just to note XP166 was actually a re-built P.531 and had first flown in 1959 (dont have a date for first flight after conversion). MilborneOne (talk) 17:00, 15 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Flight in 1963 says the "pre-production" aircraft flew on 4 August and that "a substantial production order for the Westland Scout AH.l was announced, and the first off the line left the Fairey Aviation Division factory at Hayes on March 6, 1961." Also that production had a 685 hp Nimbus 102 and the "P-531-2 "Wasp Mk 1" - effectively the prototype for Scout and Wasp had a BS Nimbus of 1,050 hp.
 * Flight of 2 September 1960 talks of Sprite and Wasp as "the military and civil versions respectively of the Saunders-Roe P.531, and are powered respectively by an 885 s.h.p. Blackburn A.129 Nimbus free-turbine engine derated to 650 s.h.p., and a 900 s.h.p. de Havilland Gnome similarly derated"
 * There's probably a lot more in Flight to be found. Whether it's got the clarity of the North Sea or the Med, is yet to be determined. GraemeLeggett (talk) 17:10, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll work my way through it - I'm sure the sources are all out there somewhere. Cheers, --Bye for now (PTT) 17:30, 15 November 2014 (UTC)


 * "Scout And Wasp" a 1964 Flight article here:  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.29.18.153 (talk) 12:05, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

What replaced Scouts
Re: this edit Could you please provide a source for this content? ie: that Gazelles replaced Scouts. Cheers, --Bye for now (PTT) 17:15, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, the British Army was using the Gazelle in the reconnaissance, light freight, communications, and light attack roles, the same roles that the Scout had previously been allocated with. The Lynx also took on some of the jobs performed by the Scout, but it was a considerably heavier-duty helicopter, the Gazelle was a more like-for-like replacement. The same squadrons that were using the Scout were often reissued with the Gazelle and continued to do the exact same operations that they were doing before, only there was less of an operational emphasis on using the Gazelle for attack missions - that's what the Lynx was there to do in the doctrine. It's not easy to find a nice neat source that says that in a single sentence, but lots of squadrons can be found where the pattern is readily apparent: No. 663 Squadron AAC adopted the Gazelle as the Scout was being binned, No. 656 Squadron AAC adopted the Gazelle and as Gazelle numbers increased binned the Scouts. It'd be easier to find examples if the current squadron articles on Wikipedia weren't typically non-existent or scant in detail; but that's an issue aside. Kyteto (talk) 18:13, 16 November 2014 (UTC)


 * A few quotes:

--Bye for now (PTT) 20:41, 16 November 2014 (UTC) --Bye for now (PTT) 21:33, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
 * "The Lynx was the replacement for the Scout" see page98
 * 1980: "The Westland Lynx AH.l is the British Army Air Corps' (AAC) new anti-tank helicopter. Armed with eight Tow anti-tank missiles—and with another eight reloads in the cabin — Army Lynx replaces the SS.ll-armed Scout." photo captions "Left Lynx armed with its full complement of eight Tow anti-tank missiles. The periscope-mounted sight is clearly shown ... Right A first generation tank-killer in the form of the popular Westland Scout and its armament of four SS.I Is "
 * Both the Scout and Sioux provided excellent service and this new role changed the AAC from a Supporting Arm to a Teeth Arm. However, both aircraft were aging and during the 1970s and early 1980s, were replaced, the Sioux Light Observation Helicopter by the Gazelle and the Scout Anti-Tank helicopter by the Lynx with TOW. The Lynx/TOW was armed with twice as many missiles and those missiles had an extra thousand metres range." (includes 663 Sqn)
 * 1970s: "The armed Lynx was teamed with the Gazelle, which was to scout ahead for targets"

it may well be that "lots of squadrons can be found where the pattern is readily apparent:" but the two examples you give (No. 663 Squadron AAC and No. 656 Squadron AAC) don't show any such pattern to me. Could you be more specific please, --Bye for now (PTT) 21:47, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

I think that maybe what we have here is a difference in perspective/viewpoint/interpretation of events. For example if 3 squadrons of mixed Gazelle/Scout become two Gazelle Squadrons and one Lynx squadron then it might appear that (in 2 out of 3 cases) Scouts were replaced by Gazelles. But in the remaining case, from a purely squadron perspective/viewpoint, the Gazelle aircraft would appear to have been replaced by the Lynx. Bearing in mind that the Gazelle and Lynx were part of the same aircraft buy-programme this would be quite bizarre - even by the sometime quirky decision making processes of the UK MoD. Looking at it from a regimental (or an actual role/purpose) perspective/viewpoint it could simply appear that the tank-killing role of the Scout was superceded by the Lynx and the function of an individual squadron was redefined to be (predominantly) either reconnaissance or tank-killing. ie: organisationally, some squadrons had their Scouts replaced Gazelles but (functionally) the Lynx replaced the Scout. Whatever, I still think we should only put into the article what we can verify by reliable sources.--Bye for now (PTT) 11:03, 17 November 2014 (UTC)


 * For 847/3 CBAS: "The Sioux were replaced with 12 Gazelle AH1s in 1974/5 and in 1982 6 TOW-equipped Lynx replaced the Scouts." --Bye for now (PTT) 11:50, 17 November 2014 (UTC)