Talk:Westminster Quarters

Errors in midi file
The second four-note-sequence of the MIDI file is wrong. It should be C D E C (but is C E D C). The hour chime is F but should be E (because Big Ben is also in E)... Jordbaer 19:43, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The music example should of course be written in 3/4 time (not 4/4, though the note values are correct)! Anyone have a version where the barring is correct? 195.217.52.130 14:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, the notes are over-specified too. They don't have to be in C - I think the Westminster Chimes are in E or E flat. But it may be "C" in bell-ringer terms. David Brooks 15:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The midi file cannot be downloaded from the article page at all. T.E. Goodwin 08:33, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Works for me. HairyWombat (talk) 04:11, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

The article states they're in E, which is correct, but the MIDI file plays in another key. It ought to be consistent, or have an explanation as to why it is not. 77.99.184.41 (talk) 11:59, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

History
It would be interesting to know if there's any affinity with the traditional chant of the Dies Irae. [[User:JKeck|

JKeck]] (talk) 18:47, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

is this 3/4 metrum correct?
As a musician I have a problem with your 3/4 metrum. When I hear the audiofile of the Westminster chimes, I can hear a sort of 5/4 metrum, but not a single waltzlike accent. What do you mean?

Best greetings from Germany

--Metzner (talk) 00:21, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Discrepancies
Several discrepancies seem to exist here... May need clearing.

The Westminster Quarter bells are (as of 10/07/2009) (according to Parliament-Big Ben Official Site) :
 * 1) G# (1.1 tonnes, 1.1m)
 * 2) F# (1.3 tonnes, 1.2m)
 * 3) E  (1.7 tonnes, 1.4m)
 * 4) B  (4 tonnes, 1.8m)

As for time signature... well there are plenty of actual recordings of the chimes, Big Ben has a recording, as does BBC - Big Ben Archive and the Parliament site linked above. -- J.P.Lon (talk) 19:25, 10 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Where do you see discrepancies? G#-F#-E-B is the tune in E major, which the article says is the actual key of the Palace of Westminster chimes. The article also says, that the notation samples used in the article are transposed to C major for legibility. Maybe it would be better to give the samples in E major as well, but simply removing the valuable samples without proper substitution (as an IP now repeatedly did) is by no means any improvement to the article. --FordPrefect42 (talk) 23:55, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I think the transposition to C is good, because the actual key of the bells is between E and F anyway. MJ  (t • c) 06:19, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

There is definetely a discrepancy between the recording and the written music. The first line of the last quarter is different! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.210.29.184 (talk) 13:20, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Chimes are the little musical tunes played on the quarter hour. Strike is the bong that counts the hour. This article had "strike" a couple of times when "chime" was intended. JackOL31 (talk) 04:54, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

You call the melody fragments "pernutations", but the 3rd one is not a permutation, since it contains twice the e4, but lacks the b3. (added by Thierry Pauwels, 2011-03-09) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.87.217.68 (talk) 21:23, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Looking for a reference for a reference
I'm listening to the soundtrack from the (2009) Sherlock Holmes film, and just picked up the Westminster Quarters running through certain parts of the music (appropriately, since part of the film involves a plot set to go off in Parliament at a certain time, as shown on the clock tower). Can't find anything explicitly referencing this to make it citable in the article, though. Help? Ubernostrum (talk) 07:03, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't have a reference for you, but question whether you need one. Over at Verifiability it says you only need references for statements that are contentious and likely to be challenged. So I would put it in and then, if somebody challenges it, take it out again. HairyWombat (talk) 16:56, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

These are not "permutations"
"The melody consists of five different permutations of four pitches in the key of E major. The pitches are B3, E4, F♯4 and G♯4." Not quite: The one that is labelled (3) isn't a permutation; a note is repeated. jftsang 01:07, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Additional citations
Why and where does this article need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth (talk) 13:24, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Big Ben = E?
Are you sure that Big Ben is an E? I hear it as down a fifth from the tonic, which would make it an A. --vckeating (talk) 14:31, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

The chime melody itself sounds more like F Major to me. Cbsteffen (talk) 18:54, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

5 4 time?
If it is heard in 5 4 time, why not have it that way in this article. I have always heard it as 2/4 with a pause on the fourth note. It has Never sounded like triple time to me. It is Duple: One two /One two,(wait....) One two /One two, wait....)  etc.....   It does not sound like Triple time:  One two three /Four ( wait wait ) One two three /Four (wait wait)    If you count it out and get my meaning.   It is Not is triple time. It is in Duple time. Ding dong, Ding dong..... etc, ..... not Ding dong ding/Dong..................

So, yes.... change the staff notation, since it is wrong. It isn't correct. The fourth note is not three beats anyway, so it is wrong. It is only 2 beats. And that can be justified as a single beat with a fermata/pause. It is most certainly NOT a three beat note. So the Westmisnter chimes tune is not and never was a tune in three/four time.

208.72.123.224 (talk) 01:56, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

-rob

208.72.123.224 (talk) 01:46, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Other uses - New York City Subway?
It says, "Each of New York City Subway's rolling stock since the R44 model features the first two notes of the chimes as a warning to the passengers that the doors are closing.", but this seems absurd. Two notes only form an interval, which is not enough to imply a connection to another tune. Even the exact interval, in the correct key, with identical timing, is still not enough to imply a strong correlation. The linked reference mentions that a two-tone signal is sounded, but does not associate that signal with any preexisting melody. Can anyone verify that the two-tone signal was inspired by the Westminster Quarters? -- Hypoon (talk) 19:35, 9 January 2016 (UTC)


 * If there's nothing in the referenced pdf to document the inspiration, then there's nothing here, nor at the R44 article to support that. I should restore my citation needed template that was taken down about a year ago, or perhaps a badref citation. I haven't read the pdf, because its site wants too much ID-related information from me. Dhtwiki (talk) 11:49, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Found a few possible citations
As I was researching for clock chime I happened across a few relevant sources for this article that I don't have time to incorporate right now. But I wanted to leave them here for others (and for myself!) who might be working on this article in the future.


 * https://books.google.com/books?id=0SwAAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA275&dq=origin+%22westminster+chime%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjR_orst5LRAhXk7YMKHSDBAMoQ6AEIJDAC#v=onepage&q=origin%20%22westminster%20chime%22&f=false
 * http://www.clockguy.com/SiteRelated/SiteGraphics/RefGraphics/ClockTunes/WestminsterTune-HerschedeCatalogue.jpg - would need to track down a bit more info about this one
 * https://books.google.com/books?id=7iuZ6HaEMmoC&pg=PA131&lpg=PA131&dq=dictionary+clock+chimes&source=bl&ots=hNkjJdbPHk&sig=zkWxwM2Eb-tUSk0xDHlSxWeVvDI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjGkp-ruJLRAhXC8YMKHfXJBZk4FBDoAQgbMAE#v=onepage&q=%22Westminster%20chimes%22&f=false - musical reference
 * https://books.google.com/books?id=aN0TDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT64&lpg=PT64&dq=randall+westminster+chimes&source=bl&ots=QDn44Ow7AE&sig=mZpN9OlaUmXpu5v1o3QkBTLD6dc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiItPS9t5LRAhVMw4MKHcX7D_EQ6AEISzAJ#v=onepage&q=randall%20westminster%20chimes&f=false

--Vivisel (talk) 19:07, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Simplicity
The rather convoluted description was doing my head in. I have tried to simplify and clarify what was actually being said. Lost quite a few words to say the same thing too. If it is still unclear, make a not here or do better. E x nihil (talk) 16:15, 19 May 2022 (UTC) This started out as a minor job but took on a life of its own. Done now. E x nihil (talk) 10:52, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Different sequence for dusk???
>Just before sunset, the half-hour chime of Westminster Quarters plays, except slightly differently, with >the notes G♯4, C5, A♯4, D♯5, C5, G♯4, A♯4, D♯4.

Huh? That would mean there are other bells which play other notes in the Tower (as well as the five listed near the top of the article) just for one time of the day. I find this unlikely. 80.43.250.79 (talk) 23:19, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Different sequence not true. There are only the four quarter bells, the ones you see in the engraving, and they can only be played in the sequence described. There is no way to change the mechanical program that drives the sets. Ex nihil  (talk) 14:50, 13 March 2024 (UTC)