Talk:Whale tail

The whale picture
It's not clear if the picture of a whale at sea was added as a joke or to illustrate the shape for comparative purposes. If it's the latter, then a better picture is needed. In this one, the tail is dark against a dark background and doesn't stand out clearly. Rodparkes 02:07, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Until a better image can be sourced, the one we have will probably do. It does serve as a good comparative illustration. --  JediLofty User ¦ Talk 09:31, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * So does this term define the rear spoiler of a car or a visible thong? Why do we need that picture to illustrate this? What is the significance of this word and where are the sources that say it's used how this article claims it is? This one's on life support and if it doesn't improve rapidly I'll nominate for deletion. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 18:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It can be used to mean both, as the sources verify. Sure the article is a stub, but it does have sources which is a lot more than many articles that have survived AfD.  While we don't NEED the picture, it is USEFUL to illustrate the first definition. --  JediLofty User ¦ Talk 09:08, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, which term is this article about? Is there a documented source that says this is actually a commonly used word and this article isn't trying to promote the spread of a protologism? Cumulus Clouds (talk) 21:55, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Cam we please get a less discusting picture......please —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.109.80.180 (talk) 04:20, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Did anyone else notice that the thong in the picture is misworn, as in her waist is through a leg hole? Just curious. Hooya27 (talk) 01:52, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Merge to Cleavage (anatomy)
This term is not notable on its own and will likely fail another AfD. It should be merged into Cleavage (anatomy) if this information is to be retained. If there's no opposition, this will be done in 48 hours, otherwise I'll file another AfD. Thanks, Cumulus Clouds (talk) 20:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose Winner of the American Dialect Society's Most Creative Word of the Year and other sources establish notability. I look forward to the much-threatened AfD. Alansohn (talk) 21:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The American Dialect Society isn't a notable organization and the award means next to nothing in terms of notability. I'm trying to avoid process here and I would really appreciate some flexibility that doesn't involve you opposing this merger in all its forms. Thanks, Cumulus Clouds (talk) 22:07, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, the term was given their "most creative" award, not Word of the Year. So it's notability here is in great doubt. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 22:10, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I found 48 references to the American Dialect Society since 1981 in The New York Times. The several hundred found elsewhere in Google News / Archive would establish notability. If you see the article and my statement above, I agree 100% that the word won the organization's "most creative" award, which is a strong claim of notability. 20 sources exist in Google News Archive for the search of "American Dialect Society" "whale tail". Can I suggest that you submit the AfD for American Dialect Society first and then this article, so that your claim that the organization is not notable can be confirmed. I have shown tremendous flexibility on toe cleavage. You have proposed merger for every single one of these articles, including one that has passed three separate AfDs. Alansohn (talk) 22:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I appreciate that you're not opposing the Toe cleavage merger. I don't intend to remove any significant amount of information from these articles in the merger, I only think they would be better together under one header. In addition, if we merged them we could avoid any prolonged debate about the deletion or inclusion of the material itself. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 22:25, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Pull Me Thongs
Some voyeur sites on the Internet call these "Pull Me Thongs" or PMTs. Is this usage widespread enough to be mentioned in the article? Rodparkes 09:34, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Reliable source
Urban Dictionary may not be a reliable source but it's obviously better than adding a thousand links to all kinds of retailing sites and porn sites that refer to the term. Please, run a google test before you remove the word. Language develops bottom up, i.e. a coinage starts in the streets, creeping up to quasi-academia (like the Urban Dictionary) and eventually is recognized by the academia (like the ADS). While citing the coinage off the streets would amount to original research, it may very well be cited off sources like the Urban Legend. The coinage is notable, and, at that, should not be removed. If the source looks like unacceptable, replace the source. that obviously requires more initiative than simply pressing the undo button, but, I guess, it's worth it. Aditya (talk • contribs) 05:39, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * This is an article that is prone to vandalism and as such any new addition really needs a reliable source which Urban Dictionary blatantly isn't. If you're saying that a Google test will find suitable sources, why not add them in the first place? --  JediLofty User ¦ Talk 09:33, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No dear, I "never" said a google test will find a suitable source. That's not the task of a google test. What it would do for you wonderfully is that a google test will prove that the coinage is pretty widely used. This is something we do to establish notability. Wikipedia is a growing project, and articles and improvements are not supposed to be borne perfect. Not here. If there's clear notability, the addition may stay. What you are doing is destructive and reductive, and is a deterrent in developing the project. Insisting on academic standards for every single thing is not something we do here. Aditya (talk • contribs) 10:23, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but you can't include unsourced statements on the "prenumbra" of notability as given by a Google search. That's a roundabout way of inserting original research on the basis of prior original research. JediLofty is right to want to remove the text, since it fails WP:RS. The reason we insist on having sources for statements, Aditya, is to prevent original research. Claiming that this requirement is somehow damaging to the project is absolutely baffling. And yes, we can and do insist on having sources for every single statement. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 19:37, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The article just survived a deletion attempt that rested on the basis of not recognizing its potential. I guess the same is happening here. Explain a reliable source, please. And, also explain why a quote should not be supported by primary source, when it's perfectly acceptable by Wikipedia standard. Please, also cite a policy or guideline or, at least, an essay that warrants the removal. Aditya (talk • contribs) 20:01, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I object to your insinuation that I lack foresight, Aditya. I also object to your immediate revert, since now two people have complained about the statement and you've yet to offer any valid reason for including it. As for your request for protocol: WP:Wikipedia is not for things made up in school one day specifically notes that "Many articles of this nature describe new words or terms coined by a small group of friends. But Wikipedia is not a dictionary, it's an encyclopedia. Meanings of words and phrases go in a dictionary, such as Wiktionary; however, adding your own new words and phrases to Wiktionary is also unacceptable. Wiktionary requires evidence that a word or phrase has been attested before it will accept it. A new word that one person or a small group of people have made up and are trying to make catch on is a neologism, and isn't acceptable at Wiktionary. Take a look at Urban Dictionary instead." The "Pull Me Thongs" reference is pointless and honestly isn't worth fighting for. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 20:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * (reduced indent) I am really sorry if you feel that way. At the same time I object to your insinuation that you have perfect foresight, and pointing to one or two mistakes is unacceptable. I am not perfect, and neither are you. Repeating "Wikipedia is not a dictionary" is not reason enough to remove alternative coinage for a concept. Many things, including whole countries and people, have different names, and if those names are notable by Wikipedia standards they can be incorporated into articles perfectly. And, you may haven't noticed, but "that one person or a small group of people" (i.e. Urban Dictionary) is not a school-boy website. It has been covered and acknowledged by Time Magazine, the Guardian and other mainstream authority (it also is a mainstream publication). And, finally, if you're looking for a fight worth fighting, please, remember Wikipedia is not a battleground. Thanks. Aditya (talk • contribs) 06:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The trouble is that Urban Dictionary is a wiki - a wiki, I might add, that requires NO sources and is full of original research (and blatant slander in some cases - look at the second definition for Fred Astaire). Wikis and blogs are not acceptable as sources (see WP:SPS). --  JediLofty User ¦ Talk 10:23, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you guys real? Are you saying that I can't say X said this and provide a link to X saying that, because I didn't said Y said that X said that? What part of a direct quotation is unclear here? Aditya (talk • contribs) 13:36, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The issue is that the only sources you've provided for the phrase "pull me thong" are Urban Dictionary. It doesn't matter that The Guardian and other papers have used UD as a source; it is not allowable as a source on Wikipedia.  If you can find a source for the phrase that is not an open wiki or blog, feel free to cite it.  As it is the only sources you're providing are not suitable, per WP:SPS. --  JediLofty User ¦ Talk 14:15, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I just came to know that Cumulus Clouds has left us to meet the great omniscience in heaven. I feel so bad that the only few exchanges I had with this great editor was not congenial, and we belonged to opposite ends of an opinion spectrum. This is for you CC, no matter what was said and what action was taken, I believed and still do that you're a great editor, and you'll always remain in my memories as so. Thank you for your patience and efforts. I wish I could a fraction of a good editor as you were. Aditya (talk • contribs) 02:44, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

www.whale-tail.com
Various users seem intent on adding a link to www.whale-tail.com - is such a link really necesary in the article? Does it provide any useful information, other than access to a gallery of whaletail pictures? -- JediLofty User ¦ Talk 10:45, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The site, dedicated to the phenomenon, has been quoted by mainstream media like the NY Times, and is suspected as a catalyst to make the term popular (though, I haven't been able to find a reliable verification for that fact, yet) . It is notable, and is significant enough to be included. I have put the link in piped form into the article where is it mentioned. There shouldn't be much confusion anymore. Aditya (talk • contribs) 11:11, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * If a verifiable citation is found, feel free to re-add the link. As it is the link adds nothing to the article. --  JediLofty User ¦ Talk 12:39, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It is already verifiably cited. The citation is the 13th one of the references, and is linked at the end of the sentence. And, what exactly are you referring to in WP:LINKS? "External links should not normally be used in the body of an article"? If so, then explain how the diligence in removing the link, where edit summaries like and, and talk page discussions failed to show the point, represents a normal situation. If it is something else, then please, say what it is. I piped the link to make life easier for people who failed to see why the link is there, not remotely to ignite a bout of lawyering. I have also crossed out the part of my explanation that leads to misquoting arguments like "find a verifiable source".  Aditya (talk • contribs) 14:00, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * In referring to WP:LINKS I did, indeed mean the part that states that External links should not normally be used in the body of an article. However I think this misses the point.  What purpose does linking to the site serve?  WP:LINKS has a section headed What should be linked.  www.whale-tail.com meets NONE of those guidelines and I am yet to be persuaded that there is ANY reason to link to it. --  JediLofty User ¦ Talk 16:06, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

www.whale-tail.com was the website that created the term, without it this page would not exist. A history of the term and the creation of the website was listed here http://www.whale-tail.com/index-history.html as well as documentation of the fight for getting www.whaletail.com can be seen here: http://www.greenguyandjim.com/board/showthread.php?t=13478 I will try and get Garv over here to discus this as last I heard he's been trying to get it Trade Marked for the past 3 years.

Maybe have a section saying, "The creator started it on October 19th 2003 when he released the website www.whale-tail.com to the world" google listing has "Google began in January 1996, as a research project by Larry Page, who was soon joined by Sergey Brin" so why does a creation by another person in the online community not get credit? Maybe just have a page for Garv as he also created Fripples http://www.fripples.net/

It's redundant not to have it as part of the history! User ¦ Talk 08:51, 11 April 2008 (GMT)
 * Thanks. But, it'd require stronger cites. Forums, promotional sites, self published sources or user contributed content sites are generally not accepted as reliable sites, like the IMDb citation on Radiator (band), the modeling agency citation for one of representations on Athelston Williams or the company website used as a source on Serverware Group plc.
 * In the meantime it may be noted that there can't be a relevant policy for every possible situation on the Wikiepdia (otherwise there would be more policy pages here than actual content) and that is why polcies and guidelines are painted with a broad-brush. They are supposed to be used in conjunction with spirit of increasing knowledge, not petty lawyering. And, that is why the link, which actually leads directly from a NYT quote, putting it in perspective should stay. If someone is interested in the policies, there is the WP:LINKSTOAVOID, which has nothing against this link. Cheers. Aditya (talk • contribs) 09:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Do we have any third party links that say that created the phrase? If we can find that, then a section on Origin of the term would be an excellent addition to the article. As it is a couple of forum posts and a comment on the guy's own website aren't really enough. --  JediLofty User ¦ Talk 09:09, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * the second website to list it was http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=whale+tail but that was written by garv. This is listed here as reference 1: http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/whale_tail/  which takes it's reference that it was taken from a blog by garv.  That was the 3rd listing by date after the original site. User ¦ Talk 15:07, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Urban Dictionary can't be used as a source. WP:SOURCE clearly states that "open wikis, blogs, forum postings, and similar sources are largely not acceptable". I think the jury is still out on Double-Tongued Dictionary! --  JediLofty User ¦ Talk 14:18, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

What do we have here?
Quoting policy after policy (Connective trivia, WP:EL, synthesis etc.) and eroding stuff from the article by the people who tried to get it deleted, declaring it would never have any value, and who never contributed a single typed-in character to develop the article - that's what we have here. Please, discuss before you remove, particularly if it's a direct quote with direct relevance from a highly reliable source. Also, use rationality. "Wearing pants below waist and thereby exposing skin or intimate clothing" is indeed a law that concerns whale-tails, unless you are totally bent on lawyering. And, stop removing stuff that contextualize the subject, like the rise of the g-string and low-rise pants, especially when the context has been adequately explained through sourced information. Eroding stuff little by little may eventually get the article minimized to a level when it's ready for another deletion proposal, but that may not be a very desirable situation. Aditya (talk • contribs) 14:13, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Why is an external link to a site showing pictures of female back side surrounded by explicit advertisements for pornography sites being re-added to this page? The site clearly fails two items of WP:LINKSTOAVOID by not being a unique resource beyond what is already in the article and by large amounts of the site's displayed content being dedicating advertisements.   Even if it is argued that a mention of this site is appropriate as part of a trash comment aimed at a celebrity (see Biographies of living persons for the problem with this), that does no necessitate adding a link to the site when the site clearly does not satisfy Wikipedia guidelines and policies on external links.  I have no objection to adding an explanation that a whale tail can be considered a fashion faux-pas, but using that explanation as an excuse to linkspam an advertisement heavy site and spread negative celebrity gossip is not in the spirit of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. --Allen3 talk 16:57, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Therefore, our moral diction stops us from using the link to the only cite dedicated to whale tails, which has been quoted by mainstream media and which has been around for quite a long time by web standards. Even if we can live with that, what really warrants removing a direct quote used without prejudice, synthesis or commentary? Aditya (talk • contribs) 17:18, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The answer to your question is that no one has shown the comment adds any encyclopedic value while it is at odds with the spirit of a core content policy (WP:BLP) and a widely accepted guideline (External links). --Allen3 talk 18:01, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Whale_tail_display.jpg
The woman is obviously wearing a G-string incorrectly. I noticed before I even enlarged it, any woman who wears thongs and the like should be able to tell. One of the thigh bands is passing between her legs; she's wearing it sideways. Maybe I'm a little obsessive for being annoyed by that, but shouldn't there be a better picture? 207.172.186.128 (talk) 16:08, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * There's no better picture available at the commons. If you find one, please, feel free to add it. Aditya (talk • contribs) 16:29, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * We've already got a perfectly good image (Image:Whaletail oc.jpg), I don't see how having a picture of a girl who doesn't know how to dress properly (Image:Whale_tail_display.jpg) adds anything to the article! ;-) --  JediLofty UserTalk 12:20, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

is trying to censor the Image:Whale tail display.jpg. I have added it back.  Otolemur crassicaudatus  (talk) 02:29, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Remember to assume good faith, also pick up a dictionary and brush up on the definition of "censor". No one is censoring the image, it is just not needed when there is already a better picture in the article.  Also, the image is tagged for privacy concerns.  Since the image is redundant (with a better image already in the article), tagged for problems, and, as pointed out above, is an inaccurate image as the woman is wearing her britches incorrectly, there is no reason to have it in the article.  Cheers. L0b0t (talk) 02:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Britney Spears
A free image of the person described as the major proponent of popularizing a fashion trend isn't necessarily irrelevant. I have rewritten the caption to make the situation simpler. It would have been lot better if the image showed her flashing a whale tail, but that can't be an absolute necessity (it would have been so for a non-free image alright). I find no problem with pertinence or encyclopedicity in portraying a catalyst of a phenomenon, especially when contextualized and clarified by the accompanying caption, as well as the body of the text (I also intend to add to the cultural depiction stuff already in the caption). May be you'd like to explain your stand with little more clarity instead of simply removing content. I may be completely mistaken here, but so far that isn't looking like the case. Please, help clear the situation. Aditya (talk • contribs) 17:07, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You said it best.
 * "A free image of the person described as the major proponent of popularizing a fashion trend isn't necessarily irrelevant"
 * In this instance, it is.
 * What was the point of the image other than to gratuitiously put up a photo of Britney Spears?
 * Nothing.
 * If anyone 1. doesn't know who she is and 2. cares who she is, they click the link.
 * Kinda the whole point of linking.
 * Not only that, but the caption took up more screenspace than the image.
 * You had also stated when restoring the image, "you also have undone the information".
 * Information thusly retained.
 * This whole article is and
 * Please spare us... for instance: "Whale tails were a common vista in the mid 2000s".
 * How about, simply and un-editorialized: "Whale tails were common in the mid-2000s".
 * This is an encyclopædia, not a (poor) fashion show, and not a weekly tabloid paper.
 * Let's not even start about how the page is over-imaged (and those ones a mostly poor, too).
 * Yeah. Put Britney Spears (the picture) out of her misery.
 *   Vengeance is mine,  saith   the Prime  00:45, 7 Aug 2008 (UTC) 

Ah! You didn't have to post this poem-like thing to respond, and you didn't have to start an alround attack because I wanted to have the matter discussed before actioned. An elegant show of "I don't like it" done in style, with an edit war to go with it, supported by an incivil attitude. Is this how you plan to build an encyclopedia? Aditya (talk • contribs) 05:37, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

tags

 * tone, weasel, and NPOV for phrases such as:
 * "And even usually tasteful Halle Berry succumbed to the thong craze"
 * Please, can we get a major rewrite?
 * Also, 108 references? It's like someone's trying to prove something. Too much!
 * Considering half the article talks about non-thong whale-tails, perhaps a lead would be better as:
 * "A whale tail is, at its literal, the tail or a whale. In common usage, the term is used to describe a number of phenomena or occurances which may resemble the tail of a whale, most often a thong of g-string (undergarment) rising visibly over the top of a woman's pants, and also a specific type of automotive spolier, superconductor characteristic, and more."
 * (I say woman's because I don't think gender-neutrality is perticularly important here; when was the last time you hear, saw, or read about the whale tail on a man?)
 * Thoughts.   Vengeance is mine,  saith   the Prime  01:03, 7 Aug 2008 (UTC) 
 * Perhaps you didn't notice that it was direct quote. If you really want to post a template for tone, you could try posting it to Chicago Sun Times. This is exactly the reason I used direct quotes and words used by sources, which Wikipedia thinks is better than devising original thoughts, no matter how good much intention worked behind them. Please, don't rewrite what is documentation as other people's words, that would be very much like those photo manipulation techniques used by authoritarian regimes (in other words it would be generating false statements). As for 108 refs, it show that someone was trying to be very meticulous and and was conforming to relevant guidelines with all the heart. It's a high commendable way of creating articles here. I hope you are not creating loosely reference articles you create, as it reduced the credibility of the information.


 * Thanks for the comment on the lead. It will need work anyways (doesn't summarize the article too well, which it should). But, I think gender-neutrality needs to be maintained as much possible in as many article possible. Finally, I never saw an over-imaged article here (like you said in the previous comment). An average of less than one image per section is nowhere near over-imaged. Perhaps you haven't met those articles that has an average of 10 or so images per section, some even more. Aditya (talk • contribs) 05:54, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I think I'm probably partly to blame for the abundance of references. A user was trying to get the article deleted or merged, and was complaining that there were no sources, and that there was too much original research (have a look at the history of the article and the edits that were made in February 2008). --  JediLofty UserTalk 09:33, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That's usually how it goes with "over-referencing"; it's a (legitimate) reaction to a delete attack. I just think that it can break up the flow having every sentence reffed once or twice. I'm not necessarily saying to de-reference it, but somehow can it be cleaned up? Refs moved to paragraph ends, multiple reffs used fewer times, something that won't impact the WP:RS integrity of the article while clearing up some of it.
 * As for over-imaged, the thong-over section was probably fine and the vehicles...okay. That's minor and probably more influenced by the "vista" comment. Also, I think there's far better images available for the lead photo.
 * Just because something is a direct quote doesn't mean that it is neutral or appropriate tone; think Undo Weight. An encyclopedia, by definition, summarizes information, so while quotes are good, they're not the end all and be all. The quote (re: Halle Berry) is grossly inappropriate for this article as it is so opinion-based.
 * And if you think Chicago Sun-Times should be so tagged, tag it. Quit whining to me, though.
 * (BTW: should I be offended at being compared to an authoritarian regime?)   Vengeance is mine,  saith   the Prime  17:20, 7 Aug 2008 (UTC) 
 * Lending a hand to copyedit the article will be highly appreciated. But, please, be careful while doing it, as this is an article that has been accused of everything that can be thrown at an article. After contributing significantly to three FAs and seven GAs, including one that was nominated twice for deletion, I should find it hilarious that in one form the article is accused of no-ref and original research, and in another form it is accused of over-reffing and undue weightage (though that last accusation looks like a bit misplaced), but good humor is difficult to keep up when personal attacks start flooding in. You could, of course, suggest an edit to convert a direct quote to original prose that would keep the same information sans the commentary (well, newspapers are known for their commentary even if we don't like them). Please, reconsider comments like "Please spare us", "This is an encyclopædia, not a (poor) fashion show", "It's like someone's trying to prove something. Too much" and "Quit whining to me" (all that seem to be rather incivil), before taking an offense at pretty innocent clarification of my stand. And, if you think there's far better images available for the lead photo, please, replace it with an appropriate image. I personally couldn't find one. Aditya (talk • contribs) 18:19, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Geez, can you please calm down...
 * I have not made accusations.
 * Yes, there is the "no ref" attack and it's polar opposite, the "over-reffed" attack.
 * I made neither; I pointed out that it seems to be referenced to the point of distraction.
 * Not saying that refs need be removed, just noting for thought.
 * If you hadn't gone off the deep end on the first round, the "please spare us" would not have surfaced.
 * Thanks for providing your WikiRésumé...
 * I get the impression that any comment on the talk page, such as "surely there's a better image", you take as a personal affront.
 * Take a breath. We're all here to be constructive.
 *   Vengeance is mine,  saith   the Prime  12:36, 8 Aug 2008 (UTC) 
 * OMG!
 * Can't you leave out these pointless personal attacks?
 * Even when I agree to you
 * Saying it needs a copy edit or please, replace the image,
 * You manage to come up with
 * Another insult.
 * What a waste!
 * I really hope,
 * Someday you shall see
 * How you behaved here.
 * Aditya (talk • contribs) 04:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * So I was thinking last night as I couldn't connect...
 * The article Scottish Fold I vastly increased and then went to Editor Review.
 * One of the first comments was that it was over-referenced.
 * I had the same reaction: "Articles can't be overreferenced!!!
 * But I understand what they meant.
 * This article is the same way.
 * Now, articles that people don't like often will be attacked as not referenced enough. It's a poor argument.
 * But it ends up with articles that are distractingly referenced.
 * Sometimes necessarily so.
 * What I don't understand is why you're still fighting. I'm not fighting with you; you're effectively fighting by yourself.
 * This isn't worth it. Good Article, someone mentioned? Perhaps.
 * Someday someone else will see how you behaved here.
 * I'm working my best to be constructive. Have I re-added the tags, even though I still believe they are needed?
 * No.
 * I'm not here to edit war or to fight.
 * Remember: This is not serious! If it were, it would be Citizendium!
 *   Vengeance is mine,  saith   the Prime  14:36, 9 Aug 2008 (UTC) 
 * Ah! A supporter of pedophilia who was proved to be a sockpuppet and was indefinitely blocked... I like VigilancePrime's behavior. Lolz. Aditya (talk • contribs) 02:16, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah! A supporter of pedophilia who was proved to be a sockpuppet and was indefinitely blocked... I like VigilancePrime's behavior. Lolz. Aditya (talk • contribs) 02:16, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Good article
The article is well-written and well-referenced. Anyone wish to nominate it for GA?  Otolemur crassicaudatus  (talk) 08:18, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

No, the article needs a thorough copy-edit, the first half of the article reads like it was written by someone for whom English is a second language. The title should be changed to reflect the fact that "whale tail" as a fashion term is very recent and that "whale tail" has a much longer pedigree in the automotive, bicycle, and masonry industries. There is too much weight given to the underwear-related use of the term. Also the tone used throughout is inappropriate for an encyclopedia, much of the prose would be better suited in a tabloid or Sunday supplement. This article has a long way to go before GA status is considered. Cheers. L0b0t (talk) 14:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Wish I'd said that.
 * Or did I?
 *   Vengeance is mine,  saith   the Prime  <small style="font:9px Arial Narrow">14:44, 9 Aug 2008 (UTC) </FONT>
 * Well, it's a good article now. With love and care it may even grow into an FA someday. Aditya (talk • contribs) 14:28, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Citations got boldfaced
Is there a reason why some of the refs at the end of the article are appearing in boldface types? I couldn't locate the formatting error. Can someone help identify, or better fix, the problem? Aditya (talk • contribs) 03:25, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Image war?
Is there any particular reason for the edit war over images? As far as I understand, Wikipedia policies and guidelines have nothing to say against images that are in alignment with article context, especially when it involves free images. Aditya (talk • contribs) 12:49, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Redundant images
There are enough images in the article already. The more images you add the more you stymie a legion of users who access the encyclopedia via mobile device or even older computers. The allure of the image is far outweighed by the slowdown of the page load when there are already several images in the article that illustrate the subject quite nicely. Cheers. L0b0t (talk) 13:04, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice intention. But, you have reduced the page size by about 44,011 bytes, which counts for almost nothing. Intentions and technology don't always match. Please, also read the post above. Writing before reading not be very conducive of discussion. And, please, understand that edit warring over trivial matters outside a valid reason isn't very constructive either. Aditya (talk • contribs) 13:27, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Lolz. Another editor came forward to revert without any care for a discussion. And, I can only watch helplessly, for today, as I don't want to get into the 3RR trap. But, incivility and reasonlessness are exactly that - incivility and reasonlessness. I don't think the other editor is going to discuss anything here. So much for consensus loving Wikipedians. *sigh* Aditya (talk • contribs) 15:33, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You weren't trapped, you made   three edits within three hours, as did Lobot, so you both need to step back from this article, but if you're looking for a consensus then you have found it, 2:1 to have one image on the page. This page got to GA without the March image, it can get to FA without it as well. I would also recommend removing one of the car images, pick the best, lose the other one. Darrenhusted (talk) 17:53, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Copy-pasted from User talk:Aditya Kabir and the deleted stuff from User talk:Darrenhusted

Good rule. Who introduced it, and when? Would you explain, please. Aditya (talk • contribs) 14:40, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "You can't have both"

Are meant to illustrate a point, so it is accepted (and I suggest you look as any FA for use of photos) that is two pictures essentially portray the same thing then only one needs to be kept, hence one of those pictures is redundant. By all means put the other picture back in, but you would have to remove the other. Also you are on your third revert on that page so I would step back from it for a while and you may want to read WP:OWN, I understand you have done a lot of work to that page, kudos, but you don't own it and wikipedia policies and guidelines trump everything. I would suggest you give them a quick read, if you were un-aware that articles are not meant to be overload with pictures then it suggests you are not fully versed in the finer points of WP. Darrenhusted (talk) 16:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Photos

I don't own the article. But, I definitely own the Wikipedia, as much as you do. Trapping into 3RR was good move, and that proves you're pretty well versed in the Wiki-ways. But, where it really says that five images in a pretty long article is overload? Aditya (talk • contribs) 16:46, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry

You weren't trapped in to 3RR, you made three reverts, you could have stopped after the first, or the second however you didn't. The other editor said "superfluous" and "redundant", you reverted saying to build a consensus on the talk page but you didn't make a case for keeping the image. Instead you attacked those who had reverted you and implied a 3RR trap. If you want consensus then you have it, at the moment, 2:1 to keep the image out as it is redundant. The two images show the same thing, so if you want, pick which one is the best, then keep that but there is no point in having two images showing the exact same thing. And on the talk page the other editor did already establish a consensus, in August, when the picture was changed. You stated in November that you wanted to get it up to FA, that's not going to happen with two pictures. You need to show a whale tail (on a whale) a whale tail (on a car) and a whale tail (on a woman). The article has these, duplicate pictures would be the first thing that an FA reviewer would ask to be changed. You got the article to GA, but fighting over something that goes against policy is never going to improve an article. Darrenhusted (talk) 17:47, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Photos

Which policy exactly was violated? Can you, please, lead me to it? Aditya (talk • contribs) 18:08, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Which policy?

Undoing unfavorable posts repeatedly didn't get erased from history


 * Perhaps you should check Wiki policies a bit more. The first edit you quote restored more than the image, and isn't the same thing as reverting for the image. BTW< you mention on my talk page that L0b0t violated 3RR, but didn't mention that here. Any reason for that? Aditya (talk • contribs) 04:20, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Even if you're right on the fashion images. You're completely wrong about the car images. One whos a duck-tail, the other a whale tail. If you took time to read the captions (even if you let the body copy rest) you would have seen that. Aditya (talk • contribs) 18:11, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Is there any policy about image use like you describe? If there is, can you, please, lead me to it? Aditya (talk • contribs) 19:32, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Aditya, there is not much reason to remove this image. This article is only ~47 KB in size, there are only 6 images, including the lead one, which is not much at all comparatively, and the images are well-spaced throughout the article. "Whale tail" referring to a thong is the main topic of this article and having two images of different types of thongs is not that redundant. Lastly, you are wrong about there not being a lead image when this article was promoted to good article. Click on the link at the top of this talk page, the image was in the now-deleted infobox that was on that page, that's why you can't see it (File:Whaletail oc.jpg was the image). For all these reasons I'm adding the lead image back in, however, since File:Whale tail, thong.jpg currently has a deletion tag on it I'm going to add back in the image that was there previously. If the other image is not deleted and is actually in the public domain then it can be added back in then if you think it's a better lead image. LonelyMarble (talk) 06:01, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think L0b0t is going to discuss this on the talk page, not with his elaborate background of reverts and removals and rudeness on this article without any participation on the talk page (see:, , , , , ... for example). L0b0t seem to own this article in a negative way, which also deters L0b0t from making any constructive edit to this article. I wonder what the problem is. Aditya (talk • contribs) 04:17, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Wow, you need to assume good faith and confine your comments to content, not contributors. My participation on the talk page is evident from my postings to this very talk page. This is merely an editing disagreement, there is no need whatsoever to have such a burr under your blanket. Your accusations are unfounded and I ask that you please retract them. Cheers. L0b0t (talk) 15:58, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay. Retracted. Though it's not always a necessity to assume good faith when evidences point to something else. Aditya (talk • contribs) 16:09, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you, now you can retract the accusation that I violated 3rr. A quick glance at the history of the article will show that I have only made 5 edits to this article in all of 2009.  1 edit on 25 February, 1 edit on 4 April, 2 edits on 9 April (this is the day you claim I violated 3rr), and 1 edit on 11 April.  Cheers. L0b0t (talk) 17:54, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Can you, please, refrain from making false acquisitions? And, also from making rude commands? Aditya (talk • contribs) 17:58, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * In light of the editor's superior participation on talk pages I, regrettably, am retracting my retraction. Respect has to be mutual in a community. Cheers. Aditya (talk • contribs) 02:22, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I personally think that the whole "to help users with older computers or on mobile devices" is a smokescreen. Don't get me wrong, it's a quite terrible image, and I much prefer the one with the white thong (though that could do with cropping), but as was mentioned, the image is about 50kb, which is pretty small. Unless you're on a 28k modem it's not an issue, and if you are then you probably disabled images anyway. If you don't like the image, just say so, let's find a better one. But as the article is primarily about thongs, having two pictures is not unreasonable. -mattbuck (Talk) 14:55, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think the image in the history section should be cropped because it shows that "whale tails" were/are often visible in public, which is the main intent of the image I think. The lead image could be better since it doesn't show the top part of the "tail" but I think it's a pretty good image for the lead since it's a close up of a whale tail, the main subject of the article, without anything else in the image. The two images are serving different functions so I don't really think they are redundant. The lead image also contains a lower-back tattoo, which isn't that important, but it's another reason it fits with the content of the text. LonelyMarble (talk) 15:53, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * With the context of availability of free images at the moment, I think, LonelyMarble is right. But, the lead image isn't good looking (it's good to look good, even for an encyclopedia, right?) and, if and when available, it could and should be replaced with a better picture that fits equally (like Mattbuck suggested). Therefore, I guess both of you are right. Aditya (talk • contribs) 16:19, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Not a dictionary
Not sure how this passed good article review with the article covering more than one entirely separate topic, but hey. I've split the section on the spoiler out to Spoiler (automotive), I've added that definition to wikt:whale tail, and I've added the definition of "wikt:whale's tail" for a bifurcation of an artery. I have removed the lengthy caption about the tails of whales (anyone interested in this can visit whale) and I have removed all the other poorly sourced and obscure meanings of "whale tail" as this is an encyclopedia article about the visible underwear, not a dictionary. Fences &amp;  Windows  22:03, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
 * User:Aditya Kabir reverted my move, telling me to discuss it here - I already did make this note, to which they have given no response. I think the onus is on Aditya Kabir to justify why irrelevant material that has nothing to do with visible underwear belongs in this article. Fences  &amp;  Windows  15:32, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

[Carried over from my talk page]

You restored all the irrelevant material about "Other whale tails", which is disappointing to see. Wikipedia articles are about single topics (in this case a type of visible underwear), not topics that happen to share a name. That is not an article on the phrase "whale tail". Surely you understand this?

I merged the material on the spoiler to Spoiler (automotive), and added entries to wiktionary:whale tail and wiktionary:whale's tail (where they could be supported). I've restored the material about the car spoiler to the Spoiler (automotive) article - please don't revert. Removing it from that article and adding it back to an article on visible underwear was a poor editing decision, because the content is about spoilers, not visible underwear. The cobbled together section remaining on various obscure uses of the term "whale tail" that uses some fairly unreliable sources definitely detracts from this article, and I don't see why you're defending its inclusion. Fences &amp;  Windows  15:30, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

[Carried over text ends]


 * This looks like a difference of opinion. I personally think other variations and usage of the word needs to be included here (it's alright to have it at automotive spoilers). But, a word that has been awarded the the Word of Year Title, and has meaning beyond it's major use needs to be put in context. You remove this part and you remove the context. Probably you have noticed that almost all historical articles carry some geographical context and almost all geographical articles carry some historical context, even when there are separate and more detailed articles on the geography or the history.


 * Why put out the context of forerunners, connotations and legacy and make the article more limited than it should be? Being comprehensive is important, and that requires the context very much. This is nothing personal. If I have missed you earlier post here, I apologize. Please, be assured that I'm fine with a discussion, and ready to accept better judgment when it's put forward through proper arguments. You removed a large chunk of information from a good article without discussion to begin with, and that was probably not too appropriate.


 * I'm sorry that I'm restoring the article to it's good article state. I hope nothing will be removed before an appropriate discussion. Aditya  (talk • contribs) 18:30, 2 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Update Well another look at the summary convinced me that yours is a better way. Keeping the summary style, though I kept the etymological part and social impact of the coinage there. I also have tweaked the copy to keep the etymology and the impact in distinct chunks of text. I hope this serves the purpose. Aditya  (talk • contribs) 18:48, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "I'm sorry that I'm restoring the article to it's good article state." Now, that's not a good argument. Nobody owns the article, having a good article tag on it doesn't mean it is anywhere near perfect. To emphasise my point, articles are about *one topic* and one topic only. Topics that happen to be related by name/title do not belong on the same page - that is what disambiguation pages are for. Brief mentions of related terms that are connected are OK, but a mishmash of various things that have been coincidentally called "whale tail" is not the way to write an encyclopedia article about this type of visible underwear - they have nothing to do with each other. Look at Sun. It doesn't mention the newspapers etc., does it? That's what Sun (disambiguation) is for. Fences  &amp;  Windows  22:10, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I moved unrelated material to Whale tail (disambiguation), and some of it was deleted because whale tail was not mentioned in the linked article. Please note that the Word of the Year title was given to the fashion meaning, and only cetaceans are related to it, not spoilers or arteries. Turesable (talk) 01:49, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I have removed the "Other meanings" section altogether since it has nothing whatsoever to do with the fashion but similarities to the dorsal fins of large whales.
 * The article is clearly being coatracked. The article is about the definition of "whale tail" in relation to underwear fashion. Anything that isn't directly related to that belongs in the Wiktionary entry (if it's properly attested). I'd like to stress that if the irrelevancies about car parts, flash diffusers, sculptures and other trivia is put back, the article will be put up for reassessment per criteria 3b, ie article focus.
 * Peter Isotalo 14:24, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

The image and a full whale tail
While exposure of the waistband is a whale tail, it is never the case that the exposure needs to be full. In fact, most of the cases of whale tails noted by media and academia did not represent full exposure. Therefore, changing the lead image to signify that would be putting a wrong implication forward. Aditya (talk • contribs) 12:38, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I disagree. The definition of a whaletail, as shown by the image in the article of an actual whale's tail, is a stylized "Y" (for want of a better term) - this makes necessary the full exposure of the waistband to define the top of the tail.
 * Additionally, there is no way of knowing that the other images are actually thongs - which are a requirement of the whale tail. It's entirely possible that they are some other type of underwear which has simply ridden up to show some material.  None of the other images show this distinctive Y shape, and are at best triangles of exposed underwear.


 * I also disagree on your comment that the exposure doesn't need to be "full". To give the best definition possible we should use the best image possible - and that means a full exposure.  I have nothing against use of the second image including the tattoo, but not as a primary example - especially when better images are available.    a_man_alone (talk) 13:29, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I believe you need to validate the statement that it needs to be full with some kind of reliable sourcing. It's really not evident anywhere. But, I can definitely agree to the concern that the other garment may not be a thong. Aditya  (talk • contribs) 03:48, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I believe you need to validate the statement that something which looks like a triangle can be correctly defined as a "whale tail". Also, do you deny that the image I am putting in the lede is a whale tail?  If so, please qualify why it is not a whale tail.  If you agree that it is a whale tail, please describe why it is a worse image to use as an example of a whale tail than the image you prefer?  If you also agree that the image you prefer may not even be a thong, why then can it be used as an example of a whale tail at all?
 * A quick look through the already plentiful sources on the page shows that the following three whcih contain images all show the "full" whale tail, and not the partial look which you advocate.
 * http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-512321/So-long-thong-women-reject-chav-look-big-pants.html
 * http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/12/fashion/12THON.html
 * http://whaletailworld.com/top-13-hottest-celebrity-whaletails/
 * a_man_alone (talk) 09:19, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

First of all, I never made a statement that something which looks like a triangle can be correctly defined as a "whale tail". I don't understand why I need to validate that. And, I am not advocating anything. Where did you find that idea? And, I never said the other image is not a whale tail. Where did that supposition come from? And, why are you challenging my agreement with you about the slight possibility that it may not be a thong? I thought reaching an agreement is a good thing.

Anyways, I hope we can close this now. I have made some changes to the article, though the sample images are no definitive validation. I have moved the the image you put in the lead back to the lead, though the sample images showing in the linked pages are no definitive validation. I also have kept the other image on the basis of your statement - "I have nothing against use of the second image including the tattoo". Please check if you find the changes suitable. Aditya (talk • contribs) 13:08, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Perfectly happy now. As stated I felt that the best example should be used int he lede - which is a full "Y" shaped whale tail.  Nothing against any of the other images, apart from the fact that better were available, and so should be used in preference.  I'm still not convinced that the tattoo image is a "true" whale tail, but that's a minor issue.  The request for you to validate your stance was merely a response based on your own statement that I also needed to validate my position.  However, as we are both now happy, I don't see that it's necessary.   a_man_alone (talk) 15:18, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Whale tail. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120418230031/http://television.aol.com/show/whale-tail-thong-dreams/10219721/main to http://television.aol.com/show/whale-tail-thong-dreams/10219721/main
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20150106060121/http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0015YZU8M to http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0015YZU8M

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.—<sup style="color:green;font-family:Courier">cyberbot II <sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS"> Talk to my owner :Online 20:14, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Image inclusion
I'd just like to comment on this edit by Montana and express my support. This is not a topic that really requires more than clear illustration of what it is. These types of images can easily be construed as personality rights violations, and there's the obvious potential for sexual objectification. The images removed by Montana were of very low quality and it's quite unclear how they actually improved a reader's understanding of the topic. If they are merely decorative, they don't belong in the article.

Peter Isotalo 16:45, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

lede image - full whale tail, or a delta
As the lede image has been recently changed from a full whale-tail to a delta (ie just a triangle of underwear) and back again, in the spirit of BRD, I'll discuss my reasons for keeping the original whale-tail image:

Let's clarify that I'm not insisting on that particular image being kept, and would be amenable to a change - so long as that change personified the whale-tail, and the "Y-shaped waistband".
 * Well, essentially the argument has already been covered here, and is still valid - the lede image is supposed to show the best representation of the topic, and for that a full whale-tail is really required. I've nothing against the other image being included as well (even though I don't think it's actually a whale-tail, I'll agree that it is a variation on a theme)
 * This is further reinforced by the lede paragraph itself - "Whale tail is the Y-shaped waistband of a thong or G-string when visible" - the replaced image doesn't show a "Y-shaped waistband" so is inapplicable.

I invite the IP editor (and anybody else, of course) to comment here rather than to blindly revert - especially reverting without using edit summaries. Chaheel Riens (talk) 10:16, 17 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Additional - I've just looked and I see that the copyright is under dispute for the replaced image File:Whaletail oc.jpg, so it's probably not a good idea to use that image for that reason as well. Chaheel Riens (talk) 10:18, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 5 external links on Whale tail. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110706100638/http://www.adultawards.com.au/shownominee.pl?nominee_id=1403 to http://www.adultawards.com.au/shownominee.pl?nominee_id=1403
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090116180323/http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/archives/news/world/20070830-US-Alexandria-pants-baggy-banned-Louisana.php to http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/archives/news/world/20070830-US-Alexandria-pants-baggy-banned-Louisana.php
 * Added archive https://archive.is/20130201152918/http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/xp-18334 to http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/xp-18334
 * Added archive https://archive.is/20070628153120/http://www.montereycountyweekly.com/articles/7128 to http://www.montereycountyweekly.com/articles/7128
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081009234404/http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/style/11464496.html to http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/style/11464496.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 15:04, 19 January 2018 (UTC)