Talk:Wheat beer/Archive 1

= Discussions started at top of page =

Mere terminology?
I don't know how many of you that have worked on this have spent significant time in any of these countries, but there Weissbier, Weizenbier and Witbier are all really seen as the same thing under different names. Though they certainly vary, I think it is incorrect to call Witbier and Weizenbier different varieties.


 * Read the article carefully and you will see it says that weizen and weissbier are different names for the same thing. Belgian witbier is different from weizen. BrendanH 10:34, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * It would be more correct to say that there are four main kinds of beer brewed from wheat, where three are German and one is Belgian. Witbier is Belgian and very different from the German varieties, in that the Germans follow the "purity law", whereas the Belgians couldn't care less. --LarsMarius 19:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

It also should be noted that witbiers can also contain spices such as coriander and nutmeg which the rheinheitsgebot forbids in german beers (although wiessbier itself doesn't conform to the rheinheitsgebot as it contains wheat) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.203.48.217 (talk)  23:22, 9 May 2007
 * FWIW, Reinheit means purity. Rheinheit might mean Rhenishness, the quality of being from the Rhine or its surrounding Rhineland region. --Jerzy•t 19:53, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Malting

 * For top-fermented beer (ales), the German Biersteuergesetz (beer tax law) permits grains other than barley, as long as they are malted. Thus, all wheat beers brewed in Germany must be top-fermented. The Belgian Wits are traditionally produced with unmalted wheat, in order to maximize the grist which would fit into their mash tuns (according to Rajotte, I believe, they were taxed for a while on the size of their tuns, not on the quantity or strength of beer they produced). Lovibond 17:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Duplication
The Wheat beer and hefeweizen articles have some of the same information. I will be working on expanding the hefeweizen article, but there is some organizing that needs to be done. The information of hefeweizen on the wheat beer page ought to be removed, and refered to the hefeweizen article. There is still alot that needs to be moved from the wheat beer to the hefeweizen page. If anybody is interested in this project, or in creating more articles on wheat beers, let me know on my talk page, there is allot I think could be added. Dionysus83 19:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Hefeweizen is now a section-Rdr to the Weissbier secn. --Jerzy•t 19:53, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

= Discussions started w/o section headings =

Batch sizes
This is now longer true, even Heinekin brews witbier now:
 * Unlike lagers and pilsners, most wheat beer is produced in small batches and sold at the brewery/bar in which it is made.

-- Viajero 14:33, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Cloudiness
I have made some changes. One contradicts what was already there: the cloudiness of wit and hefeweizen comes from wheat proteins, not primarily the yeast. Yeast will settle to the bottom, given enough time (a day or two), but these beers remain cloudy. BrendanH 12:46, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)

Wheat vs. white
It is a common mistake that 'witbier' is named for its colour. But, as far as I know, the 'wit' is etymologically related to the German 'Weizen' meaning 'wheat'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Renke (talk) 09:12, 28 April 2004


 * Renke, you might be right, but I think you're not. Without corroboration I think the claim should stand. Also note that German wheat beer has two names -- Weissbier and Weizen, the former also meaning white beer. Some popular brands of Belgian wit (e.g. Bruggse Tarwebier, IIRC) are labelled "bi&egrave;re blanche" in French, which isn't exactly a foreign language to Belgian brewers. BrendanH 11:20, Apr 28, 2004 (UTC)


 * OK. Maybe someone else knows more?Renke — Preceding undated comment added 12:21, 3 May 2004


 * I'm sorry I don't know more either, but I believe that the German term "Weißbier" is actually no more than a derrivation from "Weizen" (wheat), and that the equality with the colour is rather incidental. Not sure though, --Jakob Stevo 21:26, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Jakob is correct. This is evident from the fact, that in Munich, we have light wheatbeer (called helles Wei&szlig;bier or helles Weizen) and dark wheatbeer (called dunkles Wei&szlig;bier or dunkles Weizen). The actual color is the same as the of Helles (light Munich lager) and Dunkles (dark munich lager), namely golden yellow and medium brown, resp. Actually, the light Wei&szlig;bier is even darker than the light lager, because it is usually unfiltered. Simon A. 11:59, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Bottle fermentation
I'd like to add the following fact, but wanted to ask around first, whether you all agree that it is correct (as I am not 100% sure):
 * While most types of beer are stores in barrels for fermenting, wheat beer is bottled before and ferments in the bottle.

Simon A. 12:03, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * The final stages of fermentation can be done in bottles, i.e. "Flaschengärung" (bottle fermentation). But there are varieties without "Flaschengärung". Flaschengärung is more expensive. 141.13.8.14 09:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I think somebody else makes this point somewhere else but bottle fermentation with respect to beers usually refers to the carbonation stage, a small amount of fermentables are added(or remain) in the beer which is then bottles. The yeast suspended in the beer then works on the fermentables to create C02 and alcohol. Because the bottles are sealed this C02 is forced into the liquid and gives it the carbonation. This is what is meant by bottle conditioning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.203.48.217 (talk) 23:22, 9 May 2007

More on white vs. wheat
I'm a little confused about this line in the article:
 * 'Weissbier or simply Weisse: "weisse" is the German term for "white", so "Weissebier" is just the German translation for wheat beer.'

First it says that weisse is German for white, but then it says that means Weissebier is German for wheat beer. Doesn't that mean Weissebier is actually German for white beer? Which is correct? amRadioHed 04:50, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I hope I have fixed it. Weissebier is not a correct word. --Trexer 18:09, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

More on cloudiness
the german and american hefeweiss are cloudy due to yeast. often a separate yeast strain (sometimes a lager strain, even) is used for the bottle conditioning.
 * 'While most types of beer are stores in barrels for fermenting, wheat beer is bottled before and ferments in the bottle.'

this is incorrect, as american and german hefeweiss still goes through a primary fermentation before being bottle conditioned.

I also think it would be good to point out that american and german hefeweiss styles are very different in flavors, as they use completely different yeast strains. I believe that the american widmer hefeweiss uses an altbier yeast strain that came from the zum uerige duesseldorf brewpub. a true german hefeweisse yeasts produce much more banana and clove esters and phenols, while the "american" strain is much cleaner fermenting. compare a widmer hefeweisse with paulaner, franziskaner, or ayinger. the widmer has no clove or banana flavor components.

--tfinn Mar  6 06:40:33 UTC 2006


 * Hefeweizen is cloudy because it is not filtered, not because of the yeast. Unlike other beers bottled with yeast, it will not drop clear if left undisturbed for a few days. Obviously, if you agitate the yeast it will become more cloudy, but the basic cloudiness is due to suspended proteins (which are there from the wheat and the lack of filtration). --BrendanH 10:32, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

The yeast used in :Hefeweizen has low floculation. This means that unlike say yeasts used in ales and lagers at the end of fermentation it doesn't settle out of the beer and remains suspended in it. While I'm sure the wheat proteins contribute to the cloudiness one they are not the only cause and I would imagine that yeast is more significant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.203.48.217 (talk) 23:22, 9 May 2007

german weißbier terminology
Weißbier is a Bavarian term. Asking for a weißbier almost anywhere outside of Bavaria will elicit a very confused look from the waiter. Despite the fact that almost all weißbier in Germany is made by Bavarian (usually Munich) breweries, and labeled as "Weißbier" or "Hefeweißbier", everyone up north only knows it as "Weizen". Conversely asking for weizen in München will immediately identify you as someone from out of town. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Andrew Edem (talk • contribs) 01:20, 14 December 2006 (UTC).

And some weizens are dunkel (dark) and so not weiß! 1Z 22:07, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Any waiter worth his salt will know what a "Weißbier" is in Hamburg and what a "Weizen" is in Garmischpartenkirchen! TinyMark 13:18, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

= Discussions w/ long-standing headings ==

Do not merge
My understanding is that white beer is a sub-category or sub-style of wheat beer, as is hefeweizen, Kristall Weissbier, or any number of other styles. I think the pages should not be merged--the article on white beer could easily be expanded...and I think separate articles on each sub-style of wheat beer could be warranted...and the material on them then deleted from the master article. Otherwise the master article will grow too large. Cazort 23:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * There are a number of generalizations in this article which pertain to some styles of wheat beer, but not others. It is getting a bit confusing. I took out much of the material on Bavarian Weissbier and placed that into a separate article, taking with it many of the statements which did not pertain to other wheat beers (such as the clovey flavour and aroma, or pouring techniques). I hope this removes some confusion points. Lovibond (talk) 00:06, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Technical information in this article
Fellow editors and users: It has been suggested to me that this article is not an appropriate place for technical information pertaining to wheat beers, such as the German requirement that wheat beers produced there be top-fermented. How does the community at large feel about this? Please let me know. Thank you! Lovibond 22:22, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow! This is now the third time (!!) I am telling you that I have NO OBJECTION to the top-fermenting information. In fact, all that I have said (twice before) is that since the law is not specific to wheat beer, I have simply moved it to the German beer article where it makes more sense. If you don't believe me, look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=German_beer&curid=1745155&diff=155636642&oldid=155633727 Perhaps reading your talk page might be a good idea? Mikebe 11:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I do not mean to offend those of you who have been here far longer than I, but this is a very crowded page as it is, and I am not sure how much more information it can handle without becoming indisputably unwieldy. It strikes me as being very difficult to have this master topic, "wheat beer," and then have deep and informative articles on such vastly different types of beer. Sure, the law about non-barley malts and yeast types seems relevant. Isn't there an abundance of information, though, that is even more relevant to the topic at hand, and yet is not in the wheat beer article? I am thinking particularly of the peculiar history of the style, who was allowed to brew it and when, etc. But then other beer types like Gose would be dwarfed. I would be more amenable to the addition of this information if there was a separate article for Bavarian-style wheat beer (or some diplomatic title along these lines). This is merely a suggestion, and I wonder what others think. Dunkelweizen 11:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Examples
Belgium
 * Brugs Witbier
 * Hoegaarden

Canada
 * Blanche de Chambly
 * Boréale Blanche
 * Cheval Blanc

Netherlands
 * Wieckse Witte

United Kingdom
 * Fuller's Discovery
 * Oakham Ales White Dwarf
 * St Peters Brewery Wheat Beer
 * Hoskins Brothers Ales White Dolphin
 * Titanic Brewery White Star

United States
 * Allagash White
 * Blue Moon 
 * Celis White
 * New Belgium Mothership Wit Beer
 * New Belgium Sunshine Wheat Beer
 * Ommegang Witte

WeizenWeb - wheat beers around the world —Preceding unsigned comment added by SilkTork (talk • contribs) 23:06, 6 November 2007

Pouring Technique Questions
Aside from the fact that when doing the immersion technique the outside of the bottle touches the beer, what makes this method incorrect? Also I've heard before that to properly pour a hefe weizen takes 7 minutes. Has anyone else ever heard this before? Is there any truth to it, if so why must it take so long? Thanks! Ultratone85 (talk) 22:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I put the fact in that is incorrect. Apart from the (possibly) dirty outside of the bottle touching the beer, there is no reason why you should not use this method. I think the article also says that this is the method preferred by barmen. I would dispute this strongly and say that it is entirely up to the barman involved.
 * The seven minutes myth is just that, a myth. This is used whan talking about "a German beer" (in Germany), which generally means Pils. This is also rubbish. I have been to four German breweries and was told the same in all of them. Whichever method you want to use for Weizen, it should be done in no more than a two-part pour, and, if you take seven minutes, there will not be a lot of head on the beer. The head should stand "proud of the glass". The space between the 0.5l mark and the lip of a typical Weizen glass has got to be at least 3.5cm and about 9cm in diameter. That is an awful lot of head volume to get from a half litre of beer. My tip for any non-nitro beer that is supposed to have a good head is to fill the glass to the top making sure that the head reaches down from the top to twice the distance of the marking. As the head falls in on itself, it becomes firmer and the second pour fills up the glass, hopefully giving a rounded head above the top of the glass. This is also the reason why these glasses should always taper slightly inwards at the top. TINY  MARK  23:12, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for clearing all of that up for me! I've lived in Bavaria for 3 years with the US Army and always wondered what that was always about.  I agree about the immersion technique.  Seems to me most German Barmen prefer the other method.  I think I've only ever seen the immersion technique done only a handful of times.  Thanks again!  Ultratone85 (talk) 06:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

weizenbock
A weizenbock is clearly a German wheat beer brewed with a lager (bottom fermenting) yeast.

I'm not familiar with the source cited here, but it seems like it's been misinterpreted, or misreported. It could be that at one time it wasn't allowed because of oddball regulations. Over the course of history, govt's have restricted use of a yeast or an ingredient to try to manipulate the business to their own ends.

Anyway, if anyone has the passage in the Warner, I think they should post it so we can review it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wendelgee2 (talk • contribs) 22:35, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

"Hefe"
Hefe is a Dab page that links to the accompanying article, which reflects the fact that Hefe is occasionally used on the Web when Hefeweizen or occasionally Hefeweißen (perhaps hyphenated) is on the label; given that fact, people who key in "hefe" and are talking abt beer should be led here. But please don't add references to Hefe as wheat beer to the article; its use alone is not recognized in German WP, and appears to be rare even among us ignorant Yanks. --Jerzy•t 16:41  & 20:15, 1 June 2009 (UTC)