Talk:Wheel of the Year/Archive 1

The wheel in the tropics
Hmm.. I recently moved from Australia to where I am now, 3 degrees north of the equator. So Beltane is coming up, but technically if I travel just a few hundred kilometers south i might choose to celebrate both Beltane and Samhain. *confused* also in the Chinese calendar there is all soul's day as somewhat part of my heritage (dabbling in wicca was a "non-hereditary" choice of mine if this makes any sense whatsoever)


 * Yes. The article seems to be exclusively about the wheel in high latitudes. Within the tropics things are very different. Eg, at the equator the mid-day sun is highest at both equinoxes (not one of the solstices) and lowest at both solstices (but relatively low to the north at one and similarly low to the south at the other). And things get rather more complicated as you move either side of the equator. Laurel Bush 12:45, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC).
 * The wheel was developed in temperate zones. It would not have much bearing, if any, on the climates in tropical zones.

Verification of the History of the Sabbats
Does anyone know if the history of the Sabbats is accurate? I'm referring to the part of the the article where it states that Ostara was selected to relate to Easter, and that the entire Wheel of the Year is largely a modern construction. Most people I speak to seem to indicate otherwise, so it would be interesting to see this information verified and perhaps elaborated upon.
 * Yes, it's accurate, drawn from The Pagan Religions of the Early British Isles among other sources. I can cite them and provide quotations if you like.Cavalorn 15:44, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * The individual festivals all have historical European roots from somewhere or other, plus evidence that a festival around the spring equinox existed before Easter, however, the there is no evidence that the entire wheel as it is currently known was used by any historical group until the mid 1900's.

Assumed link to Gregorian calendar
I removed

''"Samhain, Imbolc, Bealtaine and Lughnasadh are sometimes defined as cross-quarter points and their dates seem to pay anachronistic respect to the Gregorian calendar. Unlike the astrological calendar the Gregorian is not aligned with particular astronomical events in the wheel of the year.  Both the cross-quarter dates and the Gregorian calendar may represent however some ancient (now forgotten) practice in the alignment of a twelve-month calendar, practice in which the alignment is deliberately one-eighth of a circle (45 degrees) out of phase with that of the astrological calendar. It is morelikely that these dates have become attached to the Calends of their respective months, along with their corresponding and closely intertwined Christian Holy Days (Samhain ... Halloween etc).

''In the Gregorian calendar four boundaries between months are close to but several days earlier than the precise midpoints between solstices and equinoxes. If the Gregorian calendar had equal-length months and were accurately aligned with the precise cross-quarter points then the solstices and equinoxes would fall halfway through the months of December, March, June and September, and the true cross-quarter points would be on the boundaries between October and November, January and February, April and May and between July and August."  to this talk page as, while there may be some useful material that can be salvaged, the entire argument is based on incorrect historical data and an assumption that the 'true dates' of Samhain etc derive from the zodiacal year and from the gregorian calendar. The "some ancient and now forgotten" comment is wooly and unreferenced, the "anachronistic respect" comment is itself anachronistic, and the whole thing looks more like original research than an encyclopedia entry and thus,unsuitable for wikipedia. --Nantonos 15:49, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

ACK! Definitely pull anything that says, as above: "the Gregorian is not aligned with particular astronomical events in the wheel of the year."- -good lord, nailing the Vernal Equinox down to not stray from (a Vatican/Rome date of) March 20th-21st was the whole reason for the formulation of that calendar! This the very reason that the dates of the solstices and equinoxes are not as ambiguous as pagan authors seem to assume. My apologies to the Kiwi's but the whole system was meant to be fixed from Rome (and later Greenwich) - -which often leaves the New Zealanders way out ahead on a different day of the week than the rest of us. earrach Sept18th2007.


 * Going back to the version that the above replaced might have been more useful that just removing it. Of course I may be biased.
 * Alex Law 12:02, 9 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The text I removed was an addition, not a replacement. However, in checking that, I found that there was a large deletion here and some of that material might usefully be reincorporated.


 * Your comment about the kalends was on the right track, but saying that they "have become attached" is incorrect- that was their original definition. --Nantonos 10:44, 11 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I added back the quote and the comment about the modern construction of the wheel, as those are very true. I also rearranged the article slightly, as there seemed to be too much text in the introduction.

Dates of the Solstices and Equinoxes
[|The US Naval Obseravtory publishes "the" national standard data for the dates and times of the solstices and equinoxes. The times given there are in UT (Universal Time -similar to GMT) so they read 5 hours ahead of what clocks are reading in the US's Eastern Standard Time or 4 hours during Eastern Daylight Saving Time. Neopagan publications have been mis-stating the dates of the solstices and equinoxes for generations now, probably just by copying from each other and being befuddled by the seemingly ambiguous nature of the dates from year to year they find when referencing the astronomical data. The following values represent the actual/correct dates based on USA time (EST/EDT).

MARCH EQUINOX: usually March 20th; occasionally the 21st; NEVER the 24th or 25th...

JUNE SOLSTICE: usually June 21st; occasionally the 20th...

SEPTEMBER EQUINOX: usually Sept. 23rd; occasionally the 22nd; NEVER (never) the 20th, 21st 24th, 25th...

DECEMBER SOLSTICE: usually dec 21st; occasionally the 22nd

Earrach


 * Depends on where you are in the world. If you're in New Zealand like me, the June Solstice might fall on the 22nd. The only befuddling I've seen so far has been assuming that everyone's in a US Eastern Standard time zone (quite a common mistake, making people like me have to be quite careful).
 * Lets see, looking at the (UT) times given for solstices and equinoxes from 1992-2020, and figuring out the possible dates in all possible time zones, we have:
 * March equinox 19-21 March
 * June solstice 20-22 June
 * September equinox 22-24 Sept
 * December solstice 20-22 Dec
 * I haven't looked at a wider range of years, and it looks like the Sept equinox might occasionally slip back into 21 Sept, but I haven't confirmed this.
 * There are also many folk traditions in England and Europe that (quite separately from the neopagan movement) have fixed on slightly wrong dates for celebrations. If someone's observing a "traditional" date that doesn't coincide with the actual solstice or equinox this is a likely explanation. Fuzzypeg ☻ 23:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, I'm wrong, the range of dates is even wider. The link you added to the article regarding seasonal error shows that even if you think in just Universal Time (pretty much equivalent to GMT) the December solstice falls anywhere between 20th and 23rd Dec. I'll go looking for the correct dates for the other solstice and equinoxes. Fuzzypeg ☻ 00:04, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, I've found the limits. The earliest times for the solstices and equinoxes (close to our current century) will be in the year 2096, and the latest times were in the year 1903. The calculator I used was precise to within 20 minutes. The possible date ranges, then, in Universal Time alone, are:
 * 19 Mar 13:52UT — 21 Mar 19:12UT
 * 20 Jun 06:19UT — 22 Jun 15:07UT
 * 21 Sep 22:47UT — 24 Sep 05:46UT
 * 20 Dec 20:47UT — 23 Dec 0:18UT
 * which makes the possible dates, allowing for all time zones:
 * March equinox 19-22 March
 * June solstice 19-23 June
 * September equinox 21-24 Sept
 * December solstice 20-23 Dec
 * Fuzzypeg ☻ 00:36, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Added - complete lexical lineage, links to Sabbath (christian), Shabbat (judaism), updated text 'derived from "sabbath"' to 'see also "sabbath"'.

Not everyone accepts the implied religious lineage. For many, sabbat is a major holiday observance, as opposed to a weekly religious obligation.

Added &mdash; history of the use of the term. &mdash;NakedCelt 06:54, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Neopaganism?
Might it not be wiser to move this page to Sabbat (Wicca)? As far as I'm aware, only Wiccans refer to the eight festivals as "sabbats". If there are no objections I shall do so. Dewrad 18:08, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

It would seem more sensible to merge it (apart from the last section) with Wheel of the Year... --Ant 11:09, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Cross-quarter points
This section seems more generally applicable, and should be an article in its own right... or maybe part of Season, merged with the Reckoning section. --Ant 11:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

This article still has the erroneous section Cross-quarter points on the Gregorian and astrological calendars which was sustantially edited for accuracy Wheel of the Year (see Talk:Wheel of the Year).

In general this article seems less well structured than Wheel of the Year. Its alsocluttered with inaccuracies and over-generalisations.

I would however support a rename of Wheel of the Year to Wheel of the Year (Neopagan). --Nantonos 13:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Not disagreeing with you, Nantonos, but if you don't have time to fix the inaccuracies and over-generalizations, it would be helpful if you could list some of them so they could be addressed.
 * Septegram 13:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Fair point. But what I mainly meant was, since there seems to have been more fixing up of erroneous stuff on Wheel of the Year - some by myself, some by others - it would be sad to see that material replaced by (apparent dupes of the same stuff) in Sabbat if the former merges into the latter. The main thing to note is that the idea that the four Celtic fire festivals are secondary (cross) quarters derived from the solstices and equinoxes is a fairly recent Neopagan invention; they were originally entirely separate (and originally lunar). --Nantonos 01:59, 25 June 2006 (UTC).


 * If I end up doing the merge I'll keep your comments in mind. I can see there's better-written material in Wheel of the Year, and my intention is that most of that will replace most of what's here. No-one's yet objected to a merge, so I may do it in a week or two if no-one pipes up... Fuzzypeg ☻ 02:20, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I beleive that this article itself is different than the wheel of the year article in the sense that the wheel of the year adresses the ensemble of the eight festivals and how they interact with each other. While this article adresses each festival as an individual happening and therefore should be kept seperate. Merging the two into one article could become a messy and complicated affair. Afterall this web site is open to anyone on the net and many may not be familiar with the festivals at all and therefore keeping the articles seperate could make the info. more precise and on topic for those who are solely looking up data about the sabbats who do not wish to get involved with the whole subject of the wheel. Pentagram101 16:25 11 August 2006


 * We don't really want an article that "adresses each festival as an individual happening" though; these festivals each have their own article. Surely if the Wheel of the Year article has a prominently-placed list of the Sabbats/festivals, with links you can follow to read about each in detail, that would serve the purpose? Our goal is to avoid unnecessary repetition! Fuzzypeg ☻ 13:44, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

May I remove the Gregorian Months and Astrological Signs sections?
The Gregorian months and Astrological signs seem to add very little to the article other than words and space. I'm not sure why one would want tables like this, when the dates of the festivals allow you to figure it out easily enough. They're not that easy to read anyway, and a diagram would be better. I suggest just remove these sections and let people look up Zodiac if they want, or else if anyone's really keen they can draw up a nice simple diagram that includes months, zodiacal signs and festivals. Fuzzypeg 14:19, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Paganism vs. Wicca
I changed this line in the intro "In Paganism all of nature is cyclical" because it seemed overbroad to me. Such sweeping statements are risky, and I'm uncomfortable letting it stand. The very term "Wheel of the Year" is primarily/originally a Wiccan one, to the best of my understanding; to assume that all of Paganism (or even NeoPaganism) uses this model is not supported in my experience.

I'm more than happy to be corrected, but until that happens I'd like to keep this as supportable as possible.

Plus, of course, the Paganism=Wicca notion, all too prevalent, is one that irks me, and I struggle to keep it from flourishing whenever I can. Septegram 20:02, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation
I notice that Samhain and Lughnasadh have pronunciation notes, but the others are lacking. I'd update that with appropriate notes if I could, but I don't know how to create the pronunciation annotation. Imbolc, Beltaine and Mabon are ones which particularly need attention, as Imbolc is (I believe) correctly pronounced "imm-olc" or "imm-olg," I'm told the Gaelic pronunciation for Beltaine is something like "bee-yaw-nee," and I've heard "Mabon" mispronounced "May-bon." Anyone?

Samhain should probably include the pronunciation "so-ven," too; it's not as common, but it is used.

Septegram 20:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree pronunciation in IPA should be added. Needs a native Irish speaker who also knows IPA to do it. --Nantonos 08:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Proposed merge
Wheel of the Year and Sabbat (neopaganism) seem to cover exactly the same ground, indicating that they should be only one article. I suggest that Sabbat (neopaganism) be the main article and Wheel of the Year be a redirect, since "sabbat" is a more distinctive term, and the first term I would think of searching under. Wheel of the Year can be a redirect. Also, "Wheel of the Year" is not exclusively a Wiccan or a neopagan term.

Both articles need substantial rewrite, and possibly need to shed some excess information such as in Wheel of the Year where the Gregorian months are enumerated (seems totally unnecessary to me!). This should be done either before or after the merge process, so the diffs don't get too confusing (i.e. delete or rewrite before merging or after, but don't just drop information during the merge). Fuzzypeg ☻ 06:38, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

while i can't believe that i'd bother considering how abusive and vile wikipedia is, i'd just like to point out that amongst other things, pagan groups other than neopagans use the wheel of the year...sorta like one of those duh moments...no, don't merge those things, only people totally ignorant would even ever consider doing that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.129.49.65 (talk • contribs)


 * I am aware that other groups use that term, however Wheel of the Year as it currently stands represents purely a neopagan perspective. A "Wheel of the Year" article from a broader perspective is, as it were, an article still waiting to be written. What I'm interested in at the moment is cleaning up and rationalising existing material.
 * Now, I don't really appreciate your bolshy remarks or your suggestion that I'm "totally ignorant". Perhaps take a look at my recent contributions to Wikipedia before you make such judgements. Please don't turn up making derisory and abusive statements right off the mark, as this is exactly the kind of behaviour that promotes the flame wars you profess to dislike. Please read the Wikipedia policy "Assume good faith". Thanks, Fuzzypeg ☻ 07:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Wheel of the Year should neither be merged into nor become a redirect for Sabbats. This is because the same eightfold wheelis used in neodruidry,and has the same origin (collaboration between Gerald Gardner and Ross Nichols). However,in neodruidic use the festivals are not termed sabbats. On the other hand, renaming Wheel of the Year to Wheel of the Year (neopagan) would probably be a good idea. --Nantonos 08:51, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point. I would still like to limit the amount of repeated information; what do you think of merging Sabbat (neopaganism) into Wheel of the Year (neopagan) and making Sabbat (neopaganism) a redirect to that? Fuzzypeg ☻ 03:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Having just found Sabbath (witchcraft) I now think it is sensible to move most of this material into Wheel of the Year, make Sabbat (neopaganism) a redirect to Sabbath (witchcraft), and include a very brief section at the bottom of Sabbath (witchcraft) explaining neopagan usage and pointing the reader to Wheel of the Year. The concept of "Sabbath" in relation to witchcraft deserves to be seen in a wider historical view, rather than just focussing on Wiccan and neopagan conceptions. Fuzzypeg ☻ 05:00, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Major cleanup required - possible merge with Sabbat (neopaganism)
Reading a bit more of the article I find some totally untrue statements, such as "In Paganism all of nature is cyclical" (see Paganism). This article has been written almost exclusively from a Neopagan perspective, with no explanation that that is the case. Also, most of the key information is repeated in Sabbat (neopaganism), suggesting a merge. My guess is that "Sabbat" is the most generic of the two titles, so that should become the title of the merged article and "Wheel of the Year" be a re-direct. Fuzzypeg 14:35, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Discussion moved to Talk:Sabbat (neopaganism). Fuzzypeg ☻ 06:39, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Please don't merge!
Sabbats, are not just reffered so as such by Wiccans. Other Neopagan faiths use this terms also.

Also, merging with "Wheel of the year" would not work, as they refer to two different things.

The Wheel of the year, is basically the story of the Goddess and the God, and how the cycle of life happens year after year.

The Sabbats however refers to each individual sabbat, and how the sabbat fits in with the Wheel of the Year. Each Sabbat has a different meaning, and different celevrations are held on each on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Norfolkdumpling (talk • contribs)


 * Yes, of course Sabbats have greater usage than just within Wicca. The term derives mainly from Wicca though, and most of the symbolism has been adapted from Wiccan sources, so Wicca would probably feature strongly in an article about Sabbats, but it would not exclusively be from a Wiccan perspective.
 * I see your point that the wheel of the year is the full cycle, whereas a Sabbat is one spoke — however at the moment both articles cover pretty much the same ground. It's really hard to clearly separate these two ideas so that the two articles don't just repeat each other. I believe it would be easier to have a single article that describes the festivals briefly (remember that they are each more fully described in Imbolc, Samhain, etc.) and also gives an overall picture of how they fit together on a mythological level.
 * I'd also like to add a word of caution right now about the "story of the Goddess and the God": there are countless variations of this story, and none of them seem to date back very far. There are various ancient myths that we can look to for comparison, but we can't make these comparisons ourselves, according to Wikipedia's no original research policy — we need to find reliable sources who make these comparisons for us. I think it's going to be a difficult section to write, and it's probably going to end up as a survey of the two or three most well-known versions. Fuzzypeg ☻ 21:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

This doesn't sound right
The article says '"Ostara", "Eostar", or "Eostara" is a lunar Esbat, celebrated at the full moon closest to the vernal equinox. Eostre was the name given to the Teutonic lunar Goddess. See Mike Nichols.)'

For one thing, Ostara isn't an Esbat (also all Esbats are celebrations of the full moon, so 'lunar' is redundant here). Also, from what I gather Eostre wasn't a lunar goddess, she was a goddess of the dawn, her name relates to the word East which is the direction in which the sun rises.

This is based on the article by Mike Nichols referenced here, which also supports the strange theory that Eostre is the root of the word 'oestrogen' (rendered estrogen in American English).--Jcvamp 03:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Not to go off on a wild tangent, but Esbats are also new moons.
 * Septegram 14:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Eostre was a goddess of the dawn and the spring (related to the Greek Eos). It is a Sabbat, not an Esbat. Esbats are positioned purely according to the phase of the moon, while Sabbats are positioned according to either the sun alone (a calendar date or a solstice or equinox) or the sun and the moon (e.g. full moon nearest to equinox). That would be very similar to how Easter is positioned (the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox); the word Easter of course derives from Eostar:
 * According to Bede (c. 672 - 735), writing in De Tempore Ratione ("On the Reckoning of Time"), Ch. xv, "The English months", the word is derived from Eostre, an Anglo-Saxon goddess of spring, to whom the month answering to our April, and called Eostremonat, was dedicated;
 * "Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance." 
 * What is secure in Bede's passage is that the lunar month around the month of April in the Julian calendar was called the Eostre-monath. And as the Christian tradition of Easter, which has also fallen in April, arrived in some Germanic-speaking regions, the people named the then-unnamed Christian day after the festival, that is, in English as Easter, and in German as Ostern. It is alleged that remnants of Eostre's characteristics can also be found in the Easter Bunny celebrations, based on Jacob Grimm's research into connections between the 'Ostern Hare' and the Germanic Ostara, which he believed to be another name for the same goddess. (quoted from here)
 * Taking up Septegram's wild tangent, how traditional is a "new moon" esbat? ("...and better it be when the moon is full") Fuzzypeg ☻ 02:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Good question, Fuzzypeg. I know we have esbats on the new moons, but I don't know how traditional or widespread the practice is.  However, the Charge does say "better it be..." not "only it be...", so I don't think it's heretical or anything.  In fact it says "Whenever ye have need of any thing," now that I think about it, so if the "any thing" we need happens to be "Circle time," we'd be entirely justified.
 * Ha! I am a mighty rationalizer!
 * Septegram 19:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I know it's fairly common amongst Wiccans and other witches to avoid working on a dark moon; that's not to say it's wrong (the conjunction of Sun and Moon could be seen as very propitious, depending on your viewpoint), I just wondered how common these "dark moon" esbats were, and where they came from. Probably an impossible question, I know... Fuzzypeg ☻ 13:50, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure how common they are, or their origin. I guess we're kind of weird Wiccans in Blue Star... {grin}
 * I didn't think you were implying we were "wrong" to Circle on the New Moon, either.
 * Septegram 21:09, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm aware that people celebrate Esbats on new moons too, I didn't check what I was writing. The point on that section was that lunar is redundant. Anyway, the overall point was that she, according to every other source I've read, was a goddess of the dawn, not a lunar goddess. Is there a consensus that this should be changed?--Jcvamp 21:29, 20 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm in agreement. I'll change it now, and if you wish to make further improvements, feel free. Fuzzypeg ☻ 06:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Just a quick note, though. You've left in the reference to the Mike Nichols page that says Eostre was a lunar goddess. Can this be replaced with a source that, correctly, identifies her as a goddess of the dawn?--Jcvamp 02:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If it hasn't already been answered, the reason Ostara (etc, etc) was used is because this particular Sabbat celebrates the returning strength of the Sun (aka the God), at least in Wicca. I don't have any of my books with me, but it is either when the Goddess returns to her 'maiden' aspect, or she is going to in the next Sabbat. :) Just to clarify. Disinclination 04:20, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I knew that much. The issue was about her being called a lunar goddess. Thanks anyway.--Jcvamp 06:12, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Information
I'll be adding information from my college textbook "A History of Pagan Europe" by Prudence Jones and Nigel Pennick; if you do merge the articles please make sure that information gets put in the right place. Thanks Kuronue 15:24, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

History
Would you like me to add the histories of these holidays based on my college paganism textbooks? I added a little info at Wheel of the Year but this article seems to lack history at all. I'll also be tackling copyediting. Kuronue 15:33, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't add the histories yet, I could add a nother section for that. I added section headings. The main problem that I found was the tendancy to throw more information that is needed into the article-- for instnance, if someone wanted to learn about the astrological year, they'd be reading Astrology or Zodiac, not Sabbat. I also deleted things that seemed suspicious or fluffy; if you add them back in, please cite or add an unreferenced tag. Also, where do we get off saying what "most" pagans do? I left such statements in, but, I feel uneasy about our assumptions that all of pagandom follows these exact procedures. Kuronue 15:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

links
bbc link has moved, its now http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/paganism/holydays/year.shtml --Yakumo 16:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I've updated it. Fuzzypeg ☻ 23:32, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

heathen?
"Druid and heathen festivals have different names" -- heathen redirects to paganism. Sabbat is neopagan... Druidry is a religion but there is no religion (that I know of) named Heathen. Who put that sentence there, do you want to justify leaving heathen there or shall I change it to "Druid and other pagan festivals"? Kuronue 15:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It's my understanding that Asatrua often refer to themselves as "Heathens." Thus, a "Heathen" festival would be one run by and for Asatruar.
 * Septegram 15:51, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If that's true, shouldn't the link to heathen instead be a link to asatru? Makes more sense. Kuronue 22:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't let me stand in your way. If you think it makes more sense that way, then Be Bold.
 * Septegram 02:52, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I did, immediatly after posting that ~_^ Kuronue 15:06, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Introductory text
"It is interesting to note that pagans usually also observe secular holidays in their culture, and sometimes festivals from majority religions - for example, participating in Christmas gatherings if the rest of their family does so; however, they do not usually commemorate these holidays by rituals in their or another religion." -- Is this paragraph really necessary in an article on the sabbats? Observance of secular holidays isn't unique to pagans, and most people with multi-religious families will take part in their various celebrations. - 23:43, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I can't see any particular value in keeping that text in the article. Fuzzypeg ☻ 22:27, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't either. I probably wouldn't bother removing it myself, but see no reason not to remove it if you think it wastes space.
 * Septegram 17:42, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Murray
I don't ever recall Murry creating the sabbats/esbats. All she did was document and string things into something totally inacurate (Old Religion). So I'm putting up a citation needed. If nothing comes up in a month, I'm taking it down. That should be sufficient time. Disinclination 20:48, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that's supposed to mean the modern versions. The actual holidays all were celebrated in one culture or another, but never in a coherant group like they are now. Kuronue 16:09, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * She didn't create the modern versions either. If someone has to be credited, it would be Gardner. Murray's information was proven inaccurate a long time ago. It's deleted now. Disinclination 20:39, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

MERGING THE WHEEL OF THE YEAR WITH 'SABBATS'
In whatever authority I would have as a 5th degree Fam/Trad and a Norse-Magick Seithmothr & Runester/ or just as a wikiperson, I would like to say this about the proposed merge:

- It would be good as the Sabbats follow the Wheel of the year, and the Wheel of the Year is kept sacred through the Sabbats. - It would be bad as they are two different ideas & even schemata at work. There should not be the dogma of Inherent Imposition in the Craft.

SO- I think that there should be a) a edited version as an appendix,        and/or simply note the facts cleary @ the top and have clear links and         a full understanding of the connections within the body of the "Sabbat"          article text.

My 2 cents~ Jigiggidykadabra!

~Drew Beckett.->[]


 * Hi Drew. I'm sorry, I don't understand everything you've written: what do you mean when you say the Wheel and the Sabbats are two different schemata? And what is "the dogma of Inherent Imposition"?
 * The "edited version as an appendix": is that an edited version of the Sabbats article as an appendix to the Wheel of the Year article? And I can't actually figure out from your comments, are you saying you're in favour or not in favour of merging the two articles? Sorry if I'm being dense.
 * Oh, you can sign your comments easily by typing four tildes ( ~ ) at the end of your message. These get turned into name/time/date, like this: Fuzzypeg ☻ 20:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Merge with Sabbat (neopaganism)
I'm now working on merging the two articles. I know there's been alot of discussion about it. The opposition seems to be over the term "Sabbat" because it is not used in all forms of Neopaganism. Therefore, I'll merge it to "Wheel of the Year", and make "Sabbat" the redirect. The community can then move the page to wherever it chooses. Regardless of the naming, these articles must be merged! Leaving them separate is like having separate pages for "The Week" and "Days of the week". I'll also try to organize the festival information into a small table, and make a footer template for the differnet festival pages. --gwc 03:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * There's also a contradiction btw the two articles. One states that "fire festivals" are the Quarter days, the other says that they are the Cross-quarter days. Someone who is sure which one is correct please correct this! --gwc 03:13, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The merging is done. No information was removed, except for the following sentences (either because I couldn't put the information in smoothly, or because it was repeated elsewhere in the article):
 * Sabbath was also used during the European witch trials to refer to supposed gatherings of witches engaging in Devil worship; such gatherings were earlier referred to as "synagogues of Satan". Jews, at the time, were widely believed to be Devil-worshippers, which explains the use of Jewish terms to describe the activities of witches.
 * Pagans usually also observe secular holidays in their culture, and sometimes festivals from majority religions - for example, participating in Christmas gatherings if the rest of their family does so. However, they do not usually commemorate these holidays by rituals in their or another religion.
 * In addition they seem to align with the 1st of the four months in the Gregorian calendar, but are in fact several days later. If the Gregorian calendar had equal-length months and were aligned with the cross-quarter days then the solstices and equinoxes would fall halfway through the months of December, March, June, and September, and the true cross-quarter days would be on the 1st of November, February, May, and August.
 * Druids do not order their meetings by the moon but also hold regular working and study meetings.
 * The eightfold wheel of the year punctuates the path of the sun through the twelve-fold Tropical zodiac.
 * Most witches also hold smaller rituals, alone or with a coven, Lodge, or Circle. These are held monthly, often at each full moon but sometimes at the new moon; see Esbats.

--gwc 08:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The talk pages were not merged at that time. Since the sabbat talk covered Aug to Nov 06, I moved it to Talk:Wheel of the Year/Archive 1 rather than interleave it. This means that the present talk page and Archive 1 overlap in time. JJB 06:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

An image
Would an image (or more appropriately) a 'wheel' be appropriate to show everyone the wheel of the year as a visual? I would include north and south hemisphere information. I just thought i should ask opinions, and, should it be a simple black one. or a decorative one with a pentacle on it and a cat hanging off? :P I think i know which one is more appropriate! I think once an image is added, that this would make a nice featured article for the release of the Wicca Portal, but thats completely another discussion. Brenton.eccles 09:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Did you have an image already in mind? I think it's a good idea. If you've got one, go ahead and put it up; then I think you'll get a better idea about what people think. romarin [talk ]  19:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Creating it now, will show later, when am online next. --Brenton.eccles 10:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Added note: Ive tried a few ways of presenting the wheel simply, but havent come up with something clean enough, getting there though. :) --Brenton.eccles 04:56, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Added my image of the Wheel of the Year, and i just realised, that ive got some of the seasons wrong, according to the names chosen here at Wikipedia. Chaning them. --Brenton.eccles 08:30, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh yes, i have fixed those names, :)! Hope everyone likes it, i know its not the best graphic ive put up here at Wikipedia, but as with all things on Wikipedia, its open to improvement, i hope it illsutrates the wheel decently enough for the article. Do you think we should have one for the Southern Hemisphere as well? --Brenton.eccles 10:53, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it looks great, Brenton. Good job! --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫ ♦ ♫ 04:36, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thankyou, i was a little apprehensive about it at first, but now i look at it, i think its good how it complements the article. There is still much work to be done on this article though. For example, we need to get sources going on this article soon. So im going to go to my town library and borrow one of my favourite book about the wheel of the year, so i can start adding sources. --144.131.178.19 06:55, 20 December 2006 (UTC) (aka brenton forgetting to login)


 * Just to throw a spanner in the works, the very common choice to display the wheel as progressing "clockwise" is directly contrary to nature Herself. As seen from above the northern hemisphere,the Earth goes around the Sun COUNTER CLOCKWISE ("widdershins") while it turns on its own axis counter clockwise (widdershins) - and so on pretty much alike with the rest of the solar system. We're on the inside looking-out like kids riding in an automobile wondering "did that house and tree just go from right to left - - or did I just go from left to right? / PS: The image is nice, but could you ditch the name "Mabon" ? Must we move into the future driven by the lowest common denominator? Maybe "September Equinox" and "March Equinox"? (that's even fair to the Kiwis) earrach

Cleanup
While prior to the Sabbat merge the Wheel article had flaws, I can't see how the merge has helped this article. What we have now is badly structured and confusingly written, including redundancies and errors that need to be cut. The tone also jumps around, and there are numerous unsourced bits. So I've put the cleanup tag on this until the problems can be fully dealt with. --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫ ♦ ♫ 20:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I've gone through and knocked some holes into the article for restructuring. Clearly, the article is a mess and some bold changes are necessary here. If anyone feels the need to restore what I've killed, please keep in mind why I did it. bloodofox: 14:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Alright, after knocking down several walls and putting a new facade up, this should be at least somewhat more approachable. I've removed the tag. bloodofox: 15:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Time for footnotes
We've managed to whip this into pretty good shape. Now it needs thorough footnoting, as it currently has none at all. --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫ ♦ ♫ 21:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Seriously, unless someone starts doing footnotes, we're going to have to flag this as unsourced. This could be a good article, but not without citations. --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫ ♦ ♫ 06:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Positively Disgusting
Someone put the sabbats box in with the wheel thumbnail, and it looked horrible, so i put it all back as was. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Brenton.eccles (talk • contribs) 11:04, 16 January 2007 (UTC).

I thought it looked much better with the boxes aligned vertically. If you don't like them both in the same box, do you know a way to put the sabbats nav box below the Wheel graphic? With them side by side I think it squishes the text too much.  ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫ ♦ ♫ 08:35, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

A "Moon Sabbat" is an Esbat.
Pretty self explanatory. Any Wicca book I have read only uses the term "moon sabbat" when saying that is what an esbat is. Disinclination 07:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * There is also no citations in that whole section. I really don't think it is relevant, since sabbats are meant to be solar festivals, not lunar. Disinclination 05:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds like maybe it needs to go then.  ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫ ♦ ♫ 05:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

What they're describing there is not an esbat, though; it's the idea of celebrating the sabbat at the nearest convenient full moon (or dark moon). It's only the terms "moon sabbat" and "sun sabbat" that I'm unfamiliar with; the concept itself is fairly widespread. The idea is that the "old" festivals are the cross-quarter days Candlemas, Beltane, Lammas and All Hallows; these supposedly derive from agricultural festivals predating the solar calendar, so the setting of their dates is thought to have been luni-solar. The four quarter days are thought to have been a more recent addition, their dates being set strictly according to the astronomical solstices and equinoxes. I don't know the actual history of the 8 festivals, but this is the "received wisdom".

This is not the only (or even the most common) way of determining the dates. Many groups just observe the cross-quarter festivals on their modern dates (2 Feb, 1 May, 1 Aug, 1 Nov), some shift them all a few days to account for old Julian-Gregorian calendar disparities; some put them exactly midway between the equinoxes and solstices, and some hold them at the nearest full or dark moon.

But I've never heard "sun sabbat" or "moon sabbat" before. They're just "sabbats" in most of the literature, regardless of how their time is fixed. Sorry I don't have references with me... Fuzzypeg ☻ 23:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps then we could merge this in with other sections, that some groups move the dates to coincide with certain solar dates and certain lunar dates (like the full moon or the new moon, etc)? If some groups do do this, I think it should remain. Just not as its own section. It's not really in the majority, either, it seems. Disinclination 19:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Clearing up some stuff
"Wiccans, and some Neopagans who base their practices on Wicca, observe eight festivals, which are commonly referred to as 'sabbats'. These fall on the solstices, and the equinoxes, sometimes known as 'quarter days,' and the four dates falling (approximately) midway between them, known as the 'cross-quarter days' or 'fire festivals.' In some calendars each cross-quarter day marks the start of a season."

Here are some questions I have about the above:
 * What sabbats are the cross-quarter days/fire festivals?
 * What sabbats are the quarter days?

I have a few assumptions, but I really don't want to go ahead with it until I read it from someone else.. or get my hands on a book later today. The sentence structure right now is really kind of sloppy and doesn't make sense, and its hard to understand what is being referred to. What are these "four dates falling midway between"? WHAT are they falling between? Also.. which dates are the ones changing the seasons? Samhain, Imbolc, etc? Or Yule, Ostara, etc? I just really think we need to clear this up and fix the sentence structure.

Just another thing, perhaps we should mention the origins of the sabbats, like what kind of culture they come from? I remember reading somewhere that four of the festivals have Germanic/other origins, and that some (I believe that are "fire" fesitvals) come from Celtic origins. Disinclination 19:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The cross-quarters are the four that are not solstices or equinoxes: Beltaine, Lammas/Lughnassadh, Samhain, Imbolc.
 * I have not heard this term "fire festivals" applied to the cross-quarters, myself.
 * The four dates fall midway between the solstices and equinoxes (that's the "them" in the sentence), i.e. Beltaine falls between the vernal equinox and the summer solstice.
 * I believe this sentence is my rework of a somewhat less-readable one: I apologize if it's still unclear. If you have ideas for improving it, edit mercilessly! {grin}
 * *Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 20:06, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your help. :) I really just wanted to make sure not to mangle it up anymore before doing anything. I'm just uncertain about one more thing: which of the two "sets" change the seasons? Quarter or Cross-Quarter? Disinclination 20:44, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Long before I even heard of Paganism, I thought that the seasons should change so that the longest day was actually the middle of the summer, not the beginning, the shortest the middle of winter etc. However, strange though I think it is to have it work that way, I and everyone I know recognizes that mainstream society considers the summer solstice to be the beginning of Summer, the vernal equinox the beginning of Spring, etc., and goes along with that.
 * *Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 21:02, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The date that a season begins varies with local climate, so it's kind of silly for there to be a declaration that a solstice or equinox is the first day, no matter where one lives. In Irish and Germanic lore Summer Solstice is "Midsummer", not the beginning of Summer.  In Celtic folklore the festivals are often called "fire festivals" or by similar terminology. I assume this is because bonfires were usually an important part of the festivities.  On Imbolc, depending on where one lived (climate at that time of year in the north of Scotland will vary significantly from that in the south of Ireland, for instance), people were less likely to have outdoor bonfires, but fire is still an important part of the festival in the form of hearthfires, candles, and the focus on Brighid, who is a Goddess of the fires of the hearth and smithy and the fires of inspiration (among many other things).  Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 22:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, there does seem to be some kind of cultural consensus that spring starts on the vernal equinox, summer on the solstice, etc.
 * And yes, She's associated with a great many things. IIRC, to the Brigantii, She was pretty much Goddess Of Everything In Sight...
 * *Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 21:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I should have phrased that more clearly. Yes, *now* there is the general agreement in mainstream, American culture that the Solstices and Equinoxes are the official beginning of the season, no matter where you live. But in terms of, say, Gaelic culture, the beginning was marked by local seasonal phenomena. I think it's silly to set the same date for every bioregion, but it is the norm :-) Beannachd Bhrìghde leat -  Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 22:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it's actually an astronomical thing, more than a US cultural thing, but I agree that it's silly. And if you feel you must set a universal date, it seems even sillier to have summer begin at the solstice.
 * But, as with so many things in this world, they neglected to ask me before making these decisions. And people wonder why the world is in such sorry shape...
 * *Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 13:42, 16 March 2007 (UTC)


 * giggle* :)
 * I want to thank those that went through and corrected my (horrible) grammar. :) But yeah.. I was just thinking about how.. we can't apply one function to each of the solstices/equinoxes. Some "start" and some are in the "middle" of the seasons they .. represent, I suppose. Although.. now that I think about it... The Solstices seem to mark the middle of the seasons.. and the Equinoxes "start" the seasons. Although I suppose that all depends upon what tradition you are.. or what you believe in. But most of the books I have read seem to coroborate this.. to a certain level. Or am I making any sense at all? :S Disinclination 19:24, 16 March 2007 (UTC)


 * If the solstices mark the middle of the seasons and the equinoxes mark the beginning of them, then you only have two seasons. Back when I was ten or twelve, long before I'd even heard of the cross-quarters, I thought it made sense for seasons to begin and end halfway between solstice and equinox.  Imagine my surprise to discover that there actually are such holidays, even though not practiced or recognized by most people nowadays.
 * *Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 20:05, 16 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I find it all a bit strange, the dates that our modern beaurocracies have set for when the seasons begin. Midsummer is called midsummer because... it was the middle of summer! And there's a reason why so many May Day traditions talk about that day being the first day of Summer: because that was the traditional beginning of Summer! "Unite and unite, and we will all unite, for Summer is a-comen today". People don't pay much attention to tradition nowadays... Fuzzypeg ☻ 00:49, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I didn't mean for there to be only two seasons. I would think that the other sabbats would begin/mark the middle of the seasons. Disinclination 21:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Candlemas, May Day, Lammas and All Hallows are known as the "Cross-Quarter Days", and are the modern forms of the old Celtic festivals of Imbolc, Beltane, Lughnassadh and Samhain. These are sometimes described as "fire festivals". They fall roughly at mid-points between the solstices and equinoxes (Candlemas is between midwinter and Spring equinox, etc.), although there seems to be no consensus as to how the ancients determined the precise dates. Hence the variety of dates now observed: everyone has their own theory (or uses the modern dates).
 * The Quarter days (solstices and equinoxes) were a recent addition to the set of sabbats (see the article). These were observed to a greater or lesser extent by the English public: Christmas is the most obvious one; midsummer had a variety of folk observances; the autumn equinox was marked with various odd traditions including the widespread observance of the Devil's nutting day; and spring, I can't remember at the moment... It seems unlikely that these observances were thought of as part of a greater set of 8 festivals until the Bricket Wood coven's innovation (see article). The Quarter days were also observed by English neo-Druids and ceremonial magicians in the 19th and 20th centuries.
 * The terms "Quarter days" and "Cross-quarter days" come down to us as economic/legal terms, for they were (and still are) rent days or term days on which rates were due and servants were hired. The English and Irish "Quarter Days" were the solstices and equinoxes (roughly); the "Cross-quarter days" were the old Celtic fire festivals. In Scotland they had "Term days", which were the close to the English Cross-quarter days. See Quarter days. Fuzzypeg ☻ 02:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry ('Peg?), I trimmed the first 3 words from your text above ("The solstices at")and now it's ok. I just couldn't sleep at night with you calling the crossquarterdays "solstices" (typo, eh?) earrach
 * Thanks. A bit of verbal diarrhoea, I'm afraid. I was probably thinking "sabbats". Fuzzypeg ☻ 03:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay. I tried to re-write it. Tell me what you guys think? :)

"Wiccans, and some Neopagan groups, observe eight festivals, which are commonly referred to as 'sabbats'. Four of these fall on the solstices and equinoxes, which are known as 'quarter days', and the other four fall (approximately) midway between, and are commonly known as 'cross-quarter days' or 'fire festivals'. The 'quarter days' are loosely based, or named after, the Germanic festivals, and the 'cross-quarter days' are similarily inspired by the Gaelic festivals. However, modern interpretations vary widely, so Wiccan groups may celebrate and conceptualize these festivals in very different ways, dominantly having little in common with the cultural festivals outside of the adopted name. The 'quarter days' and the 'cross-quarter days' are also referred to as 'Minor' and 'Major' sabbats, respectively."

"It should be noted that exact dates for the sabbats, and the fact that there are 8 of them, is a relatively new concept that did not exist in pagan religions in the past and was popularised by the Wiccan religion."

References in order: Wiccan Veterans waging new war Devon Haynie March 3, 2007, Wicca For The Rest Of Us: The Wheel of the Year/the Sabbats", The Eightfold Wheel of the Year Moonhunter 2003.

Any good? :) Disinclination 19:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Looks pretty good to me.
 * *Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 21:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you. :) I'll go put it up.. and if anyone has a problem with it, just.. edit it? I suppose. I just wanted to make it a bit clearer to the average reader. Disinclination 21:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * One query: is Gaelic not a subgroup of Celtic, and would not Celtic be better, including as it does the other inhabitants of the British Isles? I'm not the expert on this, but it looked slightly strange... Fuzzypeg ☻ 00:49, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Origin of the term 'Litha'
I am not sure that Litha was invented by Aidan Kelly; it is the Anglo-Saxon name for Midsummer, I thought? Tolkien refers to Aerre Lithe (before midsummer) in one of the Appendices to Lord of the Rings. --yewtree 13:18, 21 May 2007 (UTC) ---

I think the inferrence was to be that Kelly introduced the usage into the Neopagan scene so I wedged that in as a fix. A further reference to the Bede source ("de Temporum Ratione" by the Venerable Bede, 8th century) would be good there too, it -is- the sole ancient source for the terms "Litha", "Modranect"(Mothers Night), and "Eastre"( "Ostara" is a guess-word Jacob Grimm gave us the 19th century ). Earrach (talk) 22:52, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

More Cleanup
Since the last overhaul on this that I was involved with, I see a certain amount of Neopaganism defaulting to Wicca has crept back in. So, I'm clarifying a few things, more along the lines of what was here after that cleanup. I'm also moving the Moon Sabbats thing here to the talk page, as that has been waiting on a source for many, many months.

Additionally, there's still a lot of OR in this article. Though a lot of it is "common knowledge", there really needs to be more sourcing. I've held off on flagging it, but we have whole sections that are without even a single source. -  Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 21:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Fire festivals
It's just plain silly that 'fire festival' defaults to 'Wheel of the Year'. I was looking for something about Japan's Katsuyama Sagicho and ended up here in this very Euro article. Alpheus (talk) 04:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed - much better to have a disambiguation page that leads to both. Set one up, or I'll do so myself if I can find the article you mention! Kim Dent-Brown  (Talk)  08:02, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

8 Festivals and the connection with Ross Nichols, Druidry etc?
This doesn't really explain why we have these 8 though? I've seen several reports that Gerald Gardners coven was only celebrating the fire festivals/cross quarters at that nudist camp, and the inclusion of the solar festivals/quarters was partly a) to give an excuse for more meetings (& potlucks), and b) after discussion with Ross Nichols, being involved with meso-Druid movements that celebrated those only. Ross Nichols went on to use all 8 as well when forming OBOD, which gave us the 'Wheel of the Year' being used in the Wiccan & Neodruid tradition (to use Isaac Bonewits terms), and so associated with Neopaganism in general. Did Hutton cover this? I know Phillip Carr-Gomm has mentioned it. - 222.154.238.36 (talk) 01:00, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The reference is clearly given in the article: Fred Lamond, 50 Years of Wicca. As he explains, the Wiccans were celebrating the cross-quarters, but adopted the solstices and equinoxes (while Gardner was away travelling) as obvious seasonal points they could add to their list of celebrations. Lamond surmises that one reason Gardner was happy to accept these additions was because it brought them more in line with the Druid practices of his friend Nichols. And no, I don't believe Hutton mentions this; he seems to assume the 8 festivals was an innovation of Gardner's.
 * I can't speak for OBOD and why they ended up with eight festivals. Fuzzypeg★ 00:43, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Correspondence Table?
I have looked on the 2009 and 2012 year of, pages and found nothing, as well as the Cross-quarter day, and Neopaganism page... Would it be possible to list the dates of the Wheel, for upcoming years, I am trying to get organized for next year, but cannot find anything. 76.170.118.232 (talk) 07:38, 10 October 2008 (UTC) 2008-10-10 T00:38 Z-7
 * The times of the Sabbats differ depending on which sabbat, where in the world, and what method you decide to calculate them by.
 * The equinoxes and solstices have the most widely agreed-upon dates, but these differ depending on what time-zone you're in. See those two articles for the dates/times in UTC for the next few years.
 * The Greater Sabbats are calculated differently by different people. One common scheme is 2 Feb, 1 May, 1 Aug and 1 Nov, however many people celebrate each of these festivals on the eve before, and others choose quite different dates.
 * And if you're in the southern hemisphere, remember to switch all the festivals six months apart. You can probably see by now why a single correspondence table might not work. Fuzzypeg★ 00:36, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Sabbat names
I've done a little rearranging so that newfangled names like Mabon and Litha aren't necessarily the first names listed. I've tried to follow the namings given in authoritative sources describing traditional Wicca, such as the Farrars' books, Doreen Valiente and so on. Fuzzypeg★ 01:38, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

"Christian Wiccan" propoganda in lead section?
I'm sorry guys but a 172 word entry wedged into the lead section of the article attempting to justify/rationalize so-called "Christian Wiccans"? The article is about the Neopagan Wheel of the Year, not a soapbox for promoting a tiny population of a subsection of Neopaganism that by many NP folks' estimation is as legitiamte a classifcation as "Nazi Jews", "Black Klansmen", or "Republican Liberals". I'm pulling it and leaving the text below: PULLED: "In some instances Christian Wiccans, also called 'Celtic Christians'(termed as adherants of Celtic Christianity ) utilize these festivals and their framework, while adhering to the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Bible. In Wiccan belief an individual has the freedom to select the deity of their own conscience, therefore Jesus is permitted; further because the historical church did utizile these festivals in Celtic and Germanic lands in earlier history, it is equally appropriate for Christians who want to honor their heritage to utilize these festivals as for Pagan Adherants to utilize them.  In this way both Pagan and Christian people with an interest in the festivals and culture of their own heritage can find satisfaction in celebrating European Feast Days that may stem back into the Bronze Age, while continuing to honor their own  inner beliefs and faith.  In this way, both groups use Celtic and Germanic Festivals as a framework for worship, symbol, the teaching of morality, and so on, and both are free to choose the deities of their choice.'' ENDQUOTE Earrach (talk) 23:50, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Discrepancy about location
In the Yule section it is said that Bethlehem is in "the SOUTHERN hemisphere" which is clearly not the case seeing Israel lies about 29 degrees north of the equator at its southernmost point and Bethlehem is at around 	31°42′11″ if we use the commonly accepted location for Jesus' birth. LeoDaVinci (talk) 18:57, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


 * You are right, and doesn't this invalidate the whole argument that is set forth in that section? Julienvr (talk) 20:53, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Someone is vandalizing Samhain
I removed obvious false information from the section on Samhain (someone claimed that children pursue candy to ward off demons, among other things). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.180.49.1 (talk) 05:16, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

wheel of the year in other religions??
The wheel of the year is sometimes said to reflect the growing season and harvest cycles of agrarian communities. There are references to such cycles in other religions and traditions? Perhaps a section could be added on that (after all there is much comparative religion in other articles esp amongst the Abrahamists). I was just looking here ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual_Decalogue

and it struck me the similarities with the harvestings and the wheel of the year. Maybe there is more like that. I have not added it as some might see it as original research. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.231.178.239 (talk) 17:05, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Oak King and Holly King
The version of the story of the Oak King and Holly King is contrary to any version I have ever heard. I had always heard that the Oak King wins at the winter solstice and the Holly King wins at the summer solstice. I read through the citation given and the only mention of the Oak King was in reference to St. John. There was no mention of the Holly King. Does anyone have more accurate information on this story? WarriorPrincessDanu (talk) 15:06, 20 June 2011 (UTC)WarriorPrincessDanu

Narratives, Celtic sub-section
I've started cleaning up this article as I can. Admittedly, I've been letting a lot slide (for the interim) given the original horrid state of this article, but it looks like Wheel of the Year is getting more attention again! I am glad to see a return of at least a few discerning eyes. To that end, some collaboration:

removed the Oak and Holly kings story from the Celtic narratives section.Honestly, I'm a little tossed on how to treat the segment. The battle is too common a Neopagan narrative to omit but as the result of speculation on the part of Robert Graves, it can be claimed a modern non-Celtic story. On the other hand, it has acceptance in modern Neo-Druidry, thus can be argued at least a modern addition and this article's focus is on modern Paganism. — Sowlos (talk) 07:25, 17 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I do think the motif is significant, and should be included in an article or section that covers the groups who incorporate this myth cycle: usually Wiccans and Neopagan traditions derived from Wicca. The Neo-druid groups that use this are rather eclectic, but as long as it's not mislabled as Celtic, I think it can be added back in. Let me look at the article and see where it might fit. Slàn, -  Kathryn NicDhàna ♫ ♦ ♫ 17:54, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * On it. Editing now. - <font face="Georgia"> Kathryn NicDhàna ♫ ♦ ♫ 17:55, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Not sure I improved the Celtic section. I basically explained that we don't have a cyclical narrative. I will not be offended if you want to cut it or move it elsewhere. Slàn, - <font face="Georgia"> Kathryn NicDhàna ♫ ♦ ♫ 18:33, 17 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Expanding the Wicca section to accommodate the Graves narrative should work for now. I still feel like there should be a better way to categorize it.
 * You are right to keep the Celtic section. Normally, I see no reason to mention a historical culture that lacks a narrative fitting into the WotY. There are many. However, given the high ratio of 'Neowiccans' to other Pagans and the lack of historical understanding prevalent among many of them, I think it is necessary. I am going to try clarifying the wording, though. — Sowlos (talk) 06:26, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The source you used for They observe the four Celtic holidays, also known as "fire festivals," and do not generally refer to their calendar as "The Wheel of the Year." clearly states modern Celtic practitioners may adhere the modern Wheel — illustrating my what do you define as Celtic, only historical or modern developments too? dilemma. Also, Welsh seasonal festivals, which you subsequently linked to, lists festivals for all eight major points on the Wheel.
 * I have removed mention of what festivals are/aren't part of Celtic practice due to the conflicts and its off topic nature in the context of narratives. — Sowlos (talk) 08:30, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Article template
I would like some clarification on the appropriate template for this article. My understanding of the templates is that the article should be a part of the relevant series, i.e. linked in the template. It seems more appropriate to me that the WiccaandWitchcraft template containing the Wheel of the Year link is used for this article rather than the Contemporary Paganism series template which does not contain such a link. See also Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Neopaganism/Templates, my understanding is that only the most appropriate one should be included. Thanks in advance for any feedback on this. HelenOnline (talk) 10:02, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

P.S. I am interested in general as this would also affect other pages I am working on. HelenOnline (talk) 10:06, 23 November 2012 (UTC)


 * This article was originality written from a Wiccan point of view, but it was expanded quite some time ago. The described celebration cycle is not exclusive to Wiccans.
 * Due to the low activity on Pagan related articles, there are still some remnants of the old state of affairs (e.g. this article being linked in WiccaandWitchcraft rather than Contemporary Paganism. However, they are not indications of how things should be; they are issues in need of updating.
 * Wheel of the Year is properly categorized under contemporary Paganism, but Sabbats may be suitable for expansion into a full article covering the Witchcraft-only angle. — Sowlos (talk) 20:32, 23 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the feedback Sowlos. HelenOnline (talk) 07:06, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Additional citations required
I have added some citations, but am not sure exactly where more are required. I would appreciate some inline Citation needed templates for guidance if anyone can help with that. HelenOnline (talk) 07:37, 24 November 2012 (UTC)


 * It's not just how many sources are cited, it's also the quality of those sources. Most paragraphs and all sections now are sourced, but several of them need replacing or support from sources with broader coverage. — Sowlos (talk) 14:56, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

RfC: Should this article be moved/split?
<div class="boilerplate metadata vfd xfd-closed" style="background-color: #F3F9FF; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * ''The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A user recently raised some issues based on this article's name. "Wheel of the Year" is a term often associated with Wicca. Based on the history, this article was originally Wicca-centric, but later expanded to a more general overview.

The issues at hand:
 * Might this article's name be inappropriate to its current state? Perhaps it would be better located at something like Pagan holidays?
 * Should Sabbat be split into its own Witchcraft focused article?
 * Is there anything else I'm missing?

Remember, this is an RfC, not a poll.
 * ''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Glitched edit, please fix
Hello! I attempted to edit this article from my phone. It went fairly well (although I had to use desktop mode and an external editor), but it seems to have glitched a bit. For whatever reason, a section header got messed up. Fixing it should be easy for a desktop user, but would be almost impossible from my cellphone. Please press ctrl+F (Windows / Linux; idk if that works on Macs), and type "==" (w/o the quotes, ofc), and your browser should take you right to it. I'm guessing some nowiki flags must have been automatically added to it. Just remove those, and it will hopefully be fixed.

Also, regarding my last edit, is there any information available on how the Wheel works for those of us near-ish to the equator? For example, where I live (Naples, in southwest Florida), we have a tropical climate with two seasons: wet/warm (during the N Hemisphere's summer), and dry/cool (during winter). No snow of course, and very little change in day length.

Alrighty, that's it for now. :)
 * ~MaiyaH78 04:59, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

✅ Helen  Online  06:45, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Imbolc on the second of February in the picture?
Imbolc is the 1st of February.

Candlemass the Christian ceremony is the 2nd of February — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.198.154.8 (talk) 09:20, 13 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, you're right. The lead image contradicts the text, although the text is not directly sourced. It looks like the image should be corrected. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:46, 20 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, I've noticed this also, and left a comment on the file's Talk page, though I doubt it would be noticed there. There is a way to have this fixed, but I haven't gone about it in so long that I have no idea how to start.
 * One thing I should point out as that the image displayed is an SVG version of the original GIF file, the GIF marked as having "some rights reserved" while the SVG based on GIF is marked as released to public domain without restriction.
 * It may be simpler to upload an original design (with the dates corrected) than to fix the old files.<BR>
 * Christopher, Sheridan, OR (talk) 06:29, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅: Dates have been corrected by another editor. — Christopher, Sheridan, OR (talk) 18:14, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Mabon (band)
The name Mabon has been used as the name of the Celtic folk band formed by Welsh composer-accordionist Jamie Smith. The band seems to be notable: "jamie smith" + mabon produces 49,200 GoogleSearch results. If not in this article, where should this band be mentioned? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:30, 20 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Because this is not an article about Celtic music or bands. If the band is notable, WP:WTAF. - Co rb ie V    ☊ ☼ 22:56, 20 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, I had spotted that "this is not an article about Celtic music or bands", thanks. But it was a "where" question. I had thought a mention could have been added at the Main article Equinox, but I see that Mabon is not even mentioned there. I guess these archaic terms will eventually have no real relevance to contemporary life. A shame, I guess. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:33, 21 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Mabon is not an archaic term for the equinox. Nevertheless Mabon is linked from the September equinox article. For what it's worth. Happy equinox! --Editor B (talk) 05:14, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I must have missed that, sorry. I had assumed it was an archaic term for the Autumn equinox. Perhaps the band could be mentioned at September equinox? But I'm not very hopeful. It does appear in other names, such as Mabon ap Modron and the Welsh Trade Unionist bard Mabon. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:25, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Jewish Sabbath a heretical celebration?
I apologize if I'm misinterpreting what's being said here, but to me, the following sentence clearly implies the Jewish Sabbath to be a heretical celebration.

Among Wiccans, the festivals are also referred to as sabbats /ˈsæbət/, with Gerald Gardner claiming this term was passed down from the Middle Ages, when the terminology for Jewish Shabbat was commingled with that of other heretical celebrations.[2]

Taken from the first, introductory section; 3rd paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Msredzinski (talk • contribs) 19:36, 5 July 2018 (UTC)


 * I assume it's trying to say that "Witches' Sabbat" was originally intended as an insulting term. AnonMoos (talk) 04:53, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Christian terminology
Most of the quarter and cross-quarter days have Christian names that were sometimes used even by pagans not all that long ago: Christmas, Candlemas (Feb 2), Lady Day (Mar 25), May-Day, St. John Baptist (midsummer), Lammas, Michaelmas, All-Saints Day. The wheel of the year concept in fact originated as a distillation of popular folklore of observances of these Christian-named holidays, not from the examination of ancient pagan texts, so purging the Christian names from the "Wheel of the year" article is unfortunately historically anachronistic... AnonMoos (talk) 05:04, 26 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Your argument would be relevant and valid, if a few key historical events had not transpired: 1)the planned influx and imposition of Christianity and its monotheistic and patriarchal belief system upon the Druid bards and all of Ireland, 2) the wheel of the year was originally configured to honor and celebrate specific agricultural times/ seasons within the year (in order to perpetuate the turning of the wheel, pagans showed gratitude, made offerings, celebrated the coming season), and 3) it was in fact, Christianity that pilfered holidays' names for itself.  bear in mind, pagans and witches have been around since the emergence of the Neanderthal. VeravonviXXXen (talk) 05:13, 29 October 2021 (UTC)


 * I think it would be a hard case to make that anything resembling modern witchcraft and/or Paganism is traceable back to the era of the Neanderthals. We have exactly no reliable data on religious practices of forty thousand years ago. We can make educated guesses, but they're little more than that since the earliest writing is under six thousand years old. We don't even know anything about the practices of the Druids, who were wiped out under two thousand years ago. As a Pagan (subset Wiccan) myself, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but in the context of this encyclopedia we have to stick to what can be affirmed from reliable sources.
 * *Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 15:21, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Is the origin of the Wheel of the Year critical to understanding the article?
As the lede section is now, it does not explain when the Wheel of the Year was invented. This is only explained in the Origins section, where it says that it originated in Britain in the 1950s. I added a few words to the second paragraf of lede section, as the lede otherwise might give the impression that the concept is very old. I changed from this: "Observing the cycle of the seasons has been important to many people, both ancient and modern." To this: "Observing the cycle of the seasons has been important to many people, both ancient and modern, although the concept of placing them in a calendar based on four or eight solar events was invented in the 1950s."

reverted my edit and pointed to MOS:LEAD, saying that the information is "not critical to undersanding the article". Is it really not? As the lede currently reads, someone who is new to the subject and only reads the lede could very well end up believing that the Wheel of the Year comes from ancient pagan practices - when the Origins section say that it's from the 1950s. I can't see how the very origin of the article subject, especially with the way it's currently presented, could be anything but critical to understanding the concept. The article would be about an entirely different subject if it actually was a pre-Christian concept, and not one that originated in the 1950s. Hsvinet (talk) 21:36, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

'Alban'
This article contained many references to the effect that 'Alban' means 'light' in Welsh (e.g. 'Alban Hefin' as 'Light of [the] Summer'. This is simply incorrect. I say this as a professional Welsh-language translator and as somebody with a post-graduate degree in Welsh literature.

For confirmation, see Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru (The University of Wales Dictionary), a historic dictionary of the Welsh language similar in scope and purpose to the Oxford English Dictionary in the English language): http://welsh-dictionary.ac.uk/gpc/gpc.html?alban. See both senses of the word, none of which mention 'light'.

There is no room etymologically for this, even at a stretch. It seems that the miss-attributed meaning of 'light' to 'alban' is a result of imaginative guesses by American and English neo-pagans with no knowledge of the Welsh-language. Indeed, this twisting of the Welsh language to Romantic ends is nothing less than cultural appropriation, which is another reason to desist from it, in addition to its being incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.144.57.93 (talk) 15:45, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Dagda and The Morrigan's Annual reunion
Brigid was conceived near a riverbank in Ireland, whereby Dagda and The Celtic Triple Goddess, known as The Morrigan, unite every year. (The Morrigan is not some nameless commoner from the Tuatha De Danaan. she is a worshipped deity who deserves respect and recognition as such.) VeravonviXXXen (talk) 04:45, 29 October 2021 (UTC)