Talk:White House Farm murders/Archive 3

Campaign website
A recently-added link to http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/ was with the edit summary "there is no official website about the White House Farm murders" (which was odd, as it was actually labelled "Jeremy Bamber Campaign Official Website"). I, with an amount of reformatting and a more NPoV link text. It has, with the edit summary "please gain consensus for this on talk".

Quite apart from WP:DNRNC, no cogent reason why the link, which is clearly relevant to the article, should not appear on it has been advanced. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:33, 28 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Bamber has been convicted of the murders, and the view that it was a miscarriage of justice is not one that current RS support. His websites are self-published, it isn't known who controls them, and over the years they've contained unsupported allegations against named living people. SarahSV (talk) 19:41, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
 * "His websites are self-published" As are many other external sites we link to. So what? "view.. not one that current RS support [...] unsupported allegations against named living people" Just like many other sites we link to. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:03, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Inclusion of the website would violate UNDUE and WP:BLPEL:
 * "External links about living persons, whether in BLPs or elsewhere, are held to a higher standard than for other topics. Questionable or self-published sources should not be included in the 'Further reading' or 'External links' sections of BLPs, and, when including such links in other articles, make sure the material linked to does not violate this policy. ... In general, do not link to websites that contradict the spirit of this policy or violate the External links guideline."
 * SarahSV (talk) 00:12, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
 * There is no breach of UNDUE involved, and your quote from BLPEL is clearly meant to refer to adding hate sites to their subject's biographies, not a case like this. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:52, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
 * BLPEL doesn't state or imply that it refers to hate sites; it means exactly what it says. SarahSV (talk) 20:05, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Missing word
In the section "Events outside", this sentence is garbled: "After the bodies were discovered, a Dr. Craig, was called to the house to certify the deaths, which he testified could have occurred at any time during the night." I think it needs to say "the coroner, a Dr. Craig". Fences &amp;  Windows  22:02, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
 * It's Dr. Ian Craig, and he seems to have been a police surgeon rather than a coroner (that was just my guess). Fences  &amp;  Windows  22:08, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Another small issue: why are different pound signs used, i.e. ₤ for older amounts vs £ for newer? The pound has not changed as a currency over the time since these murders. Fences  &amp;  Windows  22:19, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Citation style
Noting here, per WP:CITEVAR, that I'd like to introduce sfn for the 2002 appeal citations to create clickable links. Please say here if there are objections. SarahSV (talk) 20:24, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

BRD
Hi Simply-the-truth, re: the recent text removal and reverting (marked as minor), please observe BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. The article has been carefully written and has been stable for some time. If there's anything mistaken, please list it here with a source, or if there's something not in a source, please add a cite tag or add a better source yourself. But don't keep removing text. SarahSV (talk) 02:24, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Style consistency
I have made minor changes to the article to make it more consistent throughout in regards British English style conventions, ie. Dr rather than Dr., Mr rather than Mr., and 3.30 rather than 3:30. Aerach (talk) 18:58, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Alleged crime-scene damage section
White House Farm murders is very one sided, and should be amended or removed entirely. Mick Gradwell is very cautious in his comments, being sure to clarify that he has been shown portrays damage to the crime scene, and that it would be serious if that has happened, and that hasn't been disclosed. This was all brought up during the original trial, I refer you to the 2016 book The Murders at White House Farm: The shocking true story of Jeremy Bamber and the killing of his family by Carol Ann Lee (ISBN 978-1447285755):

Page 185 The two men examined her more closely, noticing a bloodstain on her nightdress under her wrist. In order to see it clearly, Cook moved her hand and asked DC Bird to take shots of it. Crime scene photographs thus show Sheila's hand in two positions and from a slightly different angle. At trial, Cook explained that his aim had been 'to demonstrate the blood marks which were not readily visible under the wrist'. Bird confirmed that he was present and had already taken 'a series of photographs' when Cook moved Sheila's hand 'to show the marks on the nightdress'. Acting Sergeant Woodcock also mentions Cook's action in his witness statement

Pages 346-347 Queried about the different positions of Sheila's hand in the crime scene shots, he clarified that both photographs were taken at the same time, but Detective Inspector Cook had moved her hand 'because he wanted to show the mark on the nightdress'. He was also questioned about a photograph in which the rifle could be seen leaning against the master bedroom window. Bird told the court: 'I had finished taking photographs in the main bedroom. I had come out and photographed the top landing, and I stood on the middle of the upper set of stairs and took that photograph from up there.' He hadn't been present when the gun was moved from Sheila's body.

Detective Inspector Ron Cook was next into the witness box. He described arriving at the scene and directing his team, adding that he was under DCI Jones's directive. He agreed that he was responsible for moving Sheila's hand in order to view 'the blood marks which were not readily visible under the wrist'. When Junior Counsel Andrew Munday asked him about the rifle photographed in the master bedroom window, Cook replied: 'When we commenced work, I instructed Detective Constable Bird to commence taking a series of photographs. This is normal procedure. Before anything was moved in the main bedroom, I asked him to photograph it first, and then to continue to photograph the remaining parts of the house. This photograph would have been taken after he had taken his original photographs of the main bedroom.'

'Who moved the gun to that position?'

'I did sir.'

'Would that be before or after it had been checked by a firearms officer?'

'It was checked as we removed it from the body, and then stood there having been given a safety check.'

Any suggestions on how this rather important information should be incorporated into the article? 2.123.144.37 (talk) 21:39, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Image size
Why are the landscape-format images on this article set with 1.2, overriding users' default preferences for image sizes? Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:21, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Having had no response, I've reset the images to default dimensions. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:05, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Names
Several sections use the name "Bamber" or "the Bamber's". It is not always 100% clear who is being referred to. Generally 'Bamber' appears to relate to Jeremy Bamber, however in some areas when talking about other relatives it would be clearer if the first name was used to distinguish which relative is being referred to. e.g. "Bamber's call to the police" section is not clear when reading as there were 2 Bambers (father and son) involved in the various calls. Suggest changing name to Jeremy where he is being referred to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.138.69.40 (talk) 17:56, 7 February 2020 (UTC)