Talk:White Mexicans/Archive 1

To IP Address 148.245.4.50
I removed the dated prod template you added. I completely disagree with you, the article is encyclopedic and referenced. It seems your only concern is that most or all of the sources provided don't use the term "White Mexican", but "people of European descent" instead. Well, neither do the sources on other articles such as White Brazilian and White American, and I personally see no problem with that, since whites are in a majority "people of European descent". It is also logical for the sources to mention immigration of whites, as whites didn't originate in the Americas, where Mexico is precisely located. - Lancini87 (talk) 23:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that the article should be kept. We would have to delete every single article on race for the same reasons. Articles on race or ethnic groups can be complicated and controversial, but I don't think we should avoid them just because it's difficult to write them. If anyone has specific suggestions on how to improve the article, then we should spend our time discussing those specific issues about the article. Kman543210 (talk) 23:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

This article is false
First "Mexicano Blanco" is not a good translation, it would be better something like "Mexicanos de origen europeo". Second according to the CIA World fact book, the "White Mexicans" are less than 10%. Arabs are not Europeans! Third Mestizo and Castizo can be so white as an European.--J altamirano (talk) 09:01, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Because Arabs are not people of Europe Salma Hayek and Carlos Slim are not part of the article.--J altamirano (talk) 09:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree - but the Wiki-Nazis on here don't want to change it. Salma & Carlos Slim both stand out the most of being non-white in the info box. This article is misleading.Gouryella (talk) 22:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * No one said Arabs were Europeans. Read the intro to the article next time before complaining. The article is for White Mexicans, not exclusively those of European descent (otherwise, the article would be called European Mexican rather than White Mexican), but of Middle Eastern descent as well. Yes, Arabs are too considered white. - Lancini87 (talk) 17:14, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Dah Arabs aren't European.... but people from the middle east are classified as white... look at you U.S. census... White will say of European or Middle eastern origin.--cooljuno411 06:03, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree
I agree, the article is a waste of time. NO ONE says "Mexicano blaco" in Spanish. The arguments used about Gael García being "castizo" are really obsolete. Opposite to countries where the Protestant church was dominant, the Catholic church allowed always interracial marriages in Latin American countries, which lead to a homogeneous mixture of the population. Most of the people used as examples are taken from the entertainment industry, who traditionally have been "whiter" than the the regular population (not to mention that they have to be attractive besides being talented). Why are you discussing Salma Hayek's racial group when she is an actress and her job is to look different in every movie? The same with Jenniffer Lopez, she dyes her hair and whitens/darkens her skin depending on the role she's playing...

Delete the whole categorization of races in Latin America. It's not encyclopedic.

August (talk) 11:14, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree! Please delete this article!--J altamirano (talk) 23:14, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Please use the talk page for improving the article rather than using it as a soapbox about how much you don't like it. If you feel that strongly about deleting the article, then you can nominate the article for deletion so that it can go through the process. If there is a consensus to delete, then it will be deleted. If not, it will stay, and I would hope that will be the end of the soapboxing.  Please visit Articles for deletion to find out how to nominate an article for deletion. Kman543210 (talk) 23:19, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with August and Altamirano. Este articulo no parece enciclopedico, discutiendo la raza de, por ejemplo, Salma Hayek! Y no nos enga~emos, en Mexico no se usa eso de "white mexican", quiza si lo usaran, pero las personas racistas, que de esas si que hay. What a waste of time.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.237.65.121 (talk) 21:07, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Why Unencyclopedic
The reason why I proposed the article for deletion is not the content or the sources, but the fact that they are in an article called "White Mexican". The article starts with a term of dubious existence, and treats it as if it was common knowledge, is there a source for this term? I have not found it. I must admit I am no expert but I have traveled in Mexico and have never heard the term. “Mexicano blanco” referred as shared ethnic identity. I have heard as racial slur as in “he/she is not white people (no es gente blanca)” or in ironic remarks “White man invention (Invento del hombre blanco)”. If you ask me I have met two kind of Mexicans, the darker skinned indigenous population (usually poor), and the lighter skinned meztizo, caucasis, asian, etc. However it is not my opinion that count, the sources provided in the article never mention the existence of such a term, concept, or ethnic group, they are articles on European emigration to Mexico, not to a distinct ethnic group within Mexico that, either recognizes itself or is recognized by others as “White Mexican”. The provided Britannica link with information on ethnicity in the country states “identities as members of ethnic groups may be additionally complicated, given that ethnicity is a function of cultural patterns and traditions as varied as a group’s sense of linguistic, religious, and socioeconomic history.” Which if you ask me tends to contradict the idea that there is a clearly defined group called “White Mexican”. As far as I remember there is no real shared sense of belonging that does not include the mestizos, I do admit that they tend to be racially conscious when it comes to Mexican native population. I am only saying that since the sourced material is actually about European immigration to Mexico and not about an integrated ethnic identity called “White Mexican” it should not mislead the reader into assuming that there is a real source for the article. --148.245.4.50 (talk) 00:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe the article should be re-named then. Suggestions? Beeblbrox (talk) 00:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * There are many sources that use the term "white Mexican", and I have grown up hearing about the inequality between the majority mestizos and wealthy white upper class in Mexico. Here is an article that touches on some of the issues: . The CIA Factbook as well as several books that I have read indicate the different ethnic groups in Mexico, one of them being white.  You can probably find several writings out there that discuss the concern from some people of white Mexicans being overly represented in Mexican telenovelas (soap operas) and movies.  Maybe additional information can be added to the article, but the term is definitely used (and well known amongst my Mexican friends).  There's also the issue of some Mexicans self-identifying as white even if they have some Amerindian in them (not personally saying this is right or wrong, just that it's discussed as a social issue). I oppose both the deletion and renaming of the article. What are alternative names?  Also, remember not to automatically assume that just because someone isn't blonde or really light-skinned that they are not white.  Even though there are many blonde Spaniards, many of them can be considered Mediterranean people which would give them darker features. Kman543210 (talk) 00:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I just glanced over the article again, and it can definitely be expanded. Just as the above editors have stated, it talks a lot about immigration. I still oppose the renaming or deletion of the article, but it definitely needs to be expanded. Just as I discussed above, white Mexicans are not just an ethnic/racial group, but are considered by some a social class. There is plenty of material out there that talks about the social issues as well, so I think that it can be at least touched on. Kman543210 (talk) 01:14, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

VDare? A racist, anti-Semitic website? You can't be serious. Eric323 (talk) 07:50, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Discrepancy
Actually, the church forbid, interracial mixing until around 1821 or so, depends on what sources you find, the white population is really around 60% or so. Its impossible to be as low as 10%. Actually 21 states of Mexico have their white population over 75% so how can it only be 10% the numbers dont add up. I personally think the US is scared because Mexicans have portrayed Mexicans for brown people, which is false. Whenever their is a colonial power, the dominating race in the country will remain just like the US. Withuout white Spanish speakers from Spain and Latin America it would only be 61% white with Spanish speakers it is 76%. The US wants that majority. Mexicans have their own race too. Tehy can be as white as John Smith, and many colors. I think the US is dumb for saying White label=english language, Spanish is white man's language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Caminosoto (talk • contribs) 03:08, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

White Mexican
People in Mexico are aware of their ancestors, obviously if you white your white, I know a handful of Mexicans who the census taker always marks them white and their last names are very Spanish. Europeans created the white label so leave it alone America! America was named after an Italian, If i do recall Italians at one time were not considered white, then why use America after an italian? As great as the country is and the best in the world it people have done stupid things. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Caminosoto (talk • contribs) 03:12, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Semi-protection
I suggest this page to be semi-protected due to the high level of vandalism. People just write plain rubbish such as: "98% of the White Mexican population is Mestizo, but their European genes are predominant" This is not only unsourced information but simply nonsense. Most Argentines, Americans and Chilians have indigenous genes but we never make such silly remarks in order to make them look more amerindian. Mexico is a country with large communities of foreign migrants, the US communty alone is about one million, followed by Canadians, French, Germans, etc. So these kind of comments are a slap in the face of all the migrants in Mexico. Also the remark: "In Mexico the White Mexican's (sic) are very wealthy and usually considered to be on the top of the status", again, an unsourced one, is nothing but an example of childish and complexed amerindian/mestizo nationalism. This is a serious encyclopedia and not a soapbox for unsourced and highly POV-motivated opinions.--Scandza (talk) 11:37, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

'''This article is a complete waste of time. It is pointless and useless save for racial profiling. I suggest it should be removed''' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.217.41.173 (talk) 17:45, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

What an irrelevant, useless and misleading article. It is definitely non encyclopedic and lacks a real source, the sources provided are about info used in the article, but not about the article. It is definitely original research. I also suggest removal. --201.103.170.153 (talk) 05:46, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You are free to add the proposed deletion template to the page, or pursue an articles for deletion discussion if you feel you have a legitimate reason for deletion. Beeblbrox (talk) 22:32, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Article name change from
I was wondering if the article's name could be changed to "Caucasian Mexican" instead of "White Mexican", I just think it sounds more proper. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.38.53.243 (talk) 00:54, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Improve the Article
The article as I read it today is unencyclopedic and ambiguous begging many questions and assuming many things. For one thing, which white-Mexicans are we talking about? Does the article deal with the historical descendants of the first Spaniards that came to Mexico? Because if that is the case those so called "white-Mexicans" (Criollos) would fall under the category of Ethnic Mexicans since they share 100% in the Mexican culture and identify solidly as Mexicans and not as Spaniards or any type of European just as the rest of the Mexican Mestizo and Indigenous population. The article seems to speak of Criollos and newly arrived immigrants all in the same breath as if they are equal. This is not the case in the Mexican mindset or society, many patriotic "white-Mexican" would be outraged at the idea of being made equal to foreigners in Mexican soil who are just here for the ride. As in the U.S. recent immigrants in Mexico from European countries live in their own neighborhoods and colonies thus constituting as Mexicans by Citizenship, as opposed to Ethnic Mexicans. This article should at least have two separate parts:


 * one that deals with Criollos as being Mexicans by cultural/ethnic identity
 * and the other that deals with recent immigrants who have Mexican citizenship but are not fully integrated into the Mexican identity and live among Mexican society as foreigners.

Most of all... this article's tone seems to be operating on the premises of the old colonial mentality of the 18th century where everyone was meticulously divided into every shade of color perceivable to the human eye along with the racist one drop rule as it was known by the Spanish where as more drops of "white" blood were in you the more "white" you became. I don't need to say how this is all monkey feces in the eyes of science. Here we are dealing with sociology, NOT some sort of social astrology, thus we need to incorporate such disciplines as Anthropology (Culture, Sociology) and Ethnography (Admixture, customs, legacy). There must also be awareness of the racist tendencies in Mexican society where "white" is seen as far more desirable and many in the society tend to unconsciously behave in ways that favor a "white" image of themselves. As many here in the discussion have already mentioned, the Mexican media and Telenovelas try to portray Mexico as a white European nation to the extent of absurdity:. Ocelotl10293 (talk) 13:12, 19 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I, and i'm sure most "white Mexicans", whether from recent immigration or not, would have to disagree. I am of Italian descent from my dad's side, yet i am, and consider myself Mexican first and foremost. If you don't see it that way, there's nothing i can do to change your point of view, but the article cannot be based on an opinion either. What would outrage white Mexicans is if they were ignored and/or denied of their existence, claiming everyone in Mexico is either mestizo or Amerindian. -- Lancini87 (talk) 17:05, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * That is why I propose that we be more specific, and encyclopedic, about what the article presents... In the case of indigenous Mexicans it is quite easy to categorize and write about; but with the subject of "white Mexicans" it's very tricky and ambiguous just as with the idea of "Latino" where everyone has their own opinion of what it means and there is no formal or common consensus of what it actually is. Does the term "White Mexicans" speak of only the Mexican nationality or Mexican ethnicity? Take Germans for example, they differentiate between ethnic Germans and Germans citizens. With Mexicans it is obvious that some are Mexican by ethnicity and legacy even if they lose their citizenship to the nation of Mexico and become acculturated into another while others are Mexican only by citizenship but have no legacy or ethnic ties to Mexico itself. I dare to say Thalia, Julio Iglesias and Luis Miguel can be a prime examples of being Mexican citizens and acculturated as Mexicans but they aren't ethnic Mexicans such as Juan Gabriel, Vicente Fernández, and Pepe Aguilar (born in Texas) who are Mexicans by ethnicity despite Pepe being born outside Mexico and being "white" along with Vicente Fernández. This is why I say we need to specify between "white Mexicans" who are considered Ethnic Mexicans (Criollos) and the others who are just recent 1st or 2nd generation immigrants living in Mexico and have become Mexican Citizens but not necessarily adopted a Mexican identity. It's all about background and the degree of culture, what backgrounds are we speaking of? Are they descendants of Criollos who have been in Mexico for centuries and know of no other identity or loyalty or are they recent immigrants with varying degrees of acculturation? These should be two separate categories in order to avoid the confusion and better explain the situation. Ocelotl10293 (talk) 20:55, 20 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I think i know where youre going... The intro clearly says the article is about white Mexican citizens. People born outside the country of white Mexican descent are obviously excluded, and i don't agree with "This is why I say we need to specify between "white Mexicans" who are considered Ethnic Mexicans (Criollos) and the others who are just recent 1st or 2nd generation immigrants living in Mexico and have become Mexican Citizens but not necessarily adopted a Mexican identity.", because, like i said before, i have "recent" Italian descent, yet that does not make me any less Mexican than you, but again, the article cannot be based on opinions. Whether or not you agree, the more recent European descendants are no different than the criollos with colonial ties, since they are both white and Mexican. In the end, that's what the article is about, so we shouldn't discriminate. -- Lancini87 (talk) 00:31, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * So if we are excluding Mexican criollos born outside of Mexico then Mexicans such as Pepe Aguilar won't be counted here which would be absurd and confusing. The article just clearly seems to be written from an outsider's perspective and not by the point of view of Mexicans themselves who have a very different criteria of who Criollos are. But then again the Article is about "white Mexicans" and not "Mexican Criollos." Someone will probably get the idea to create a separate article that deals specifically with Mexican Criollos since this articles conglomerates them with other groups and doesn't do them justice. This is already looking like it's going to be a mess. Ocelotl10293 (talk) 03:26, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Do realize that we the article is about the white population of Mexico, not the United States or elsewhere white Mexican descendants were born. Those countries have such articles too, so they will most likely be counted there. It's just like the Indigenous Mexican and other articles about specific ethnic populations within a specific country. I suppose a section can be added about the history of Mexican criollos if you like. -- Lancini87 (talk) 07:49, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I see what you are saying now... I don't think it will be necessary to make Mexican Criollos into their own article because they are already included in the Mexican people article and they are counted among the diaspora and will be included in the History. Ocelotl10293 (talk) 17:20, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Is Salma Hayek White?
She doesn't look white to me, yet she is listed under White Mexican. —Preceding unsigned comment added by InuYoshi (talk • contribs) 11:45, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You're not the first person to ask this question, but since I do not know her exact genealogy, I cannot tell you for sure. Her article states that her father is of Lebanese and her mother is of Spanish descent. You can't always go by "looks" or what your perception of "white" may be, but I am pretty sure she is not mestizo, possibly castizo (1/4 Amerindian) if either of her parents have any Amerindian ancestors, but nothing in her article states this explicitly. Remember that many white people have darker features, especially Southern Europeans, and Middle Easterners are considered white by many definitions as well.  I did revert your good-faith edit of replacing her picture with Eva Longoria, not because I object to replacing Salma Hayek, but because Eva Longoria is American and not Mexican (her father was Mexican American, but she was born in the U.S.). Kman543210 (talk) 12:40, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The only thing we can go by is the sources. If there is no source for someone being "white" then determining it ourselves is blatant original research. Our own observations, accurate or not, cannot be the basis for content. Beeblbrox (talk) 17:01, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * All the sources I looked up state that her father was of Lebanese and mother of Spanish descent, so that is white. Kman543210 (talk) 17:07, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you sure about that? What is the exact definition of "white"? I'm just concerned about WP:OR creeping into the article. Since "Hispanic" people are not generally considered "white", is a half Spanish/half Middle Eastern person white? We are on very shaky ground here, and I think we should err on the side of caution and not include anyone who has not been reffered to as "white" by a reliable source. There are WP:BLP concerns here as well, some people are very, very sensitive about their race. Beeblbrox (talk) 23:05, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I am sure that I am not going off my own definition. I recommend that you read the White people article; it explains the history as well as the scientific and social definitions of white. Not everyone agrees what constitutes the white or Caucasian race; however, I have listed several sources below that give the definition: The 2000 U.S. Census indicated that almost 50% (now estimated at over 52%) of Hispanics in the U.S. identified as white. I'm not sure where you get that Hispanic people are not considered white. It is true that white Hispanics are not the majority in Latin America, but they are a large minority as a whole, and they are the majority in several countries. Kman543210 (talk) 00:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Random House Unabridged Dictionary: Of, pertaining to, or characteristic of one of the traditional racial divisions of humankind, marked by fair to dark skin, straight to tightly curled hair, and light to very dark eyes, and originally inhabiting Europe, parts of North Africa, western Asia, and India.
 * American Heritage Dictionary: Of or being a human racial classification distinguished especially by very light to brown skin pigmentation and straight to wavy or curly hair, and including peoples indigenous to Europe, northern Africa, western Asia, and India.
 * MSN Encarta: Racial group consisting primarily of the light-skinned peoples of Europe, North Africa, western Asia, and India.
 * U.S. Census Bureau: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa.
 * Hispanics being non-white (besides the ones with mixed heritage) is something i've only heard in rather racist circles. I guess each summer when i go to the beach i stop being of the white race. Ciobanica (talk) 13:35, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict)*I checked out the article on White people (apperently at the same time you did), and it seems there is no consistent definition of what constitutes "white" and that more and more the question of race is one that is based on self-identification with a race, as opposed to appearance. Many Mexicans I have personally met consider themselves Mexican above all else, leaving "race" out of it altogether... Beeblbrox (talk) 00:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You're right about not everyone agreeing on the definition. It is generally considered a social construct in modern times, but nonetheless, it is still used for many reasons. You're also right that some identify as their nationality above all else rather than race, but Mexican is still a nationality rather than a racial category or single ethnic group. Kman543210 (talk) 00:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * My real concern here is that by making any judgement ourselves, original research is being added to the article. Beeblbrox (talk) 01:17, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Beware of White Nationalism
The article's content puts its strangely close to the ideologies of white nationalism, particularly in the way it adds as many groups under the sphere of "whiteness" as possible. A common tactic of ethnic-nationalism to make their numbers appear larger than they really are by inducting as many people into their ethnic-umbrella term as possible. As stated by Caminosoto in White Mexican the concept of "whiteness" has not always included some parts of Europe or some European peoples such as Italians, Slavs, Jews, and even the Irish at one point; especially not the Middle East much less North Africa. If the term for "whiteness" is going to be this broad then why not include Eurasians, Asians, and Native Americans? Basically anyone that isn't "Black." Some Japanese have already staked their claim to being "white." In the article on White people it states: "A common definition of a "white person" is a person of primarily, or wholly, European ancestry. " Ocelotl10293 (talk) 03:20, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Who aren't white
Salma Hayek and Gael Garcia Bernal are not white. previous unsigned comment by 201.43.150.77


 * If Gael Garcia Bernal isn't white, then what race is he? He is obviously not Amerindian. Kman543210 (talk) 13:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

He is a mestizo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.43.150.77 (talk) 14:34, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Possibly castizo, but doubtful that he's mestizo. Kman543210 (talk) 14:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No one is pure these days, but Gael could easily pass for a southern European. There's no doubt about that. Anahi is also white, but just not as notable as Gael, so please quit reverting. - Lancini87 (talk) 16:54, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This stubborn person is under different IP Addresses, it's getting really annoying. There should be a way to block anonymous users. - Lancini87 (talk) 22:30, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

You won, but Gael Garcia will never be white, he is a mestizo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.27.171.10 (talk) 01:10, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Gael Garcia is from Guadalajara, where there are a lot of Mexicans with European background--including a lot of blonds. Salma Hayek is a light brown--I've met her personally twice. Her facial features are her mothers mostly, thus linked straight to southern Europe. People who are that light in Mexico usually gather mostly with Mexican whites. What I mean is, even though she is a racial combination, she's got very strong European connection, more so than anything else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alfonsomedina1 (talk) 17:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah this unanimous unsigned person is stubborn doesn't want to face reality that his/her favorite Mexican actor is White. And yeah whites from Guadalajara I realize only gather with others like them see Gael's baby mama of course for me this is no surprise it's natural that people prefer their own kind. IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBTS that Gael does not look white then WATCH the new Heineken commericial Boss's Daughter the White actor has a striking resemblance to Gael!!!Gael Look-Alike; Proves Gael looks White! Funny how I can see white people that look like Gael but still have yet to see an Amerindian that resembles him!!!
 * I happen to be from Guadalajara Jalisco, and I can tell you that this dumb concept you guys probably invented yourselves of "whites tend to hang mostly with whites" in Jalisco is not true. People do tend to hang with their own kind, but what kind is that? In Guadalajara, as in all of Mexico, people commune on an economic basis, rich with rich, poor with poor, etc.. Many darker skinned Mexicans from the rich upper classes tend to hang more with their bourgeois peers than with those Mexicans of the middle and lower class. White Mexicans from a humble background tend to commune more with mestizo and indigenous Mexicans of their same cultural and economic class, regardless of race: Guadalajara Zapopan Jalisco Tepatitlan Jalisco. Only fools (or racists) would attempt to superficially judge the race that these people belong to when clearly the great majority are mixed race. So next time, if you don't know what you are talking about kindly keep your ignorance to yourselves because for some time I have been smelling a white nationalist agenda in this page. Ocelotl10293 (talk) 02:12, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Are u responding to me? Well I never mentioned "hang" I said "gather" which I meant to marriage/mating partners ect. Anyways just so you know I hang with people who are not my race too; at school outside of school ect. no big deal it's a way of life here in the U.S.A. By the way what do you mean by "darker skinned Mexicans" what if I say there's rich upper class darker skinned Americans would you know what that is/what i mean? please elaborate are you saying there's rich people with Amerindian phenotypes? Is it so negative to utter Amerindian that people have to say "dark skinned" that's why I consider mexico to so Wack. There's Inner-racism people are so ashamed to be part of the Amerindian ethnicity which is very different from the U.S. native-american concept Present day Native-Americans. Anyway For those "darker skinned" How did they get there but most importantly Now that they've have made it to the top what have they done to help their own kind those "darker skinned mexicans" their own people who by MAJORITY are poor. Are there poor whites in Mexico, yeah sure but are they really a majority? No not all. So much for your economic class. Here in the news with the whole immigration issue the images seen they look more Amerindian related than White. sorry it's a fact about your "economic class" your middle-class is almost non-existent in Mexico it's basically rich or poor like Brazil.
 * To answer your questions: Yes, the majority of "whites" in Mexico are "poor" (Middle or lower class if you don't think the middle class exists in Mexico). Here is a hypothetical situation: say there are only 15% whites in Mexico, but Mexico's 5% rich are all white, that means that over 66% of whites in all of Mexico aren't basking in the wealth of the elites. When I said "dark skinned" I meant anyone who isn't "white." And for intermarriage Mexicans do not discriminate by skin color (or race) as much as they do by class. As with any other society marriages are based on cultural habits, specifically women are more likely to marry men they perceive will be a good provider and provide a stable relationship. Men's habits are more complex so I won't get into that here. Also, Mexicans tend to marry Mexicans (of whatever "race") rather than foreigners. As for your claims about me somehow talking about economics I have no idea what you are trying to insinuate by that. To condense my main idea I was trying to say that Mexican society works under a classist system entwined with the racism of the backwards colonial caste system. The common prejudice in Mexico is "Wite is rich; Dark is poor." Ocelotl10293 (talk) 01:36, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No this is isn't a common prejudice it is what we SEE. By the way your whole response with sounded like bla bla bla cause it has no sources.
 * What are you talking about? "It is what we see?" What are we supposed to be "seeing" here? And my response needs no sources because I didn't make any specific claims other than point out the obvious (Mexican society's classism and racism, want sources? Here you go: [ http://www.amren.com /mtnews/archives/2005/08/mexico_slow_to.php]) and one HYPOTHETICAL situation. If you don't know what hypothetical means and why it doesn't require sources look up the definition for Hypothetical Ocelotl10293 (talk) 07:40, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Source
"There are basically four operational categories that may be termed ethnic or even racial in Mexico today: (1) güero or blanco (white), denoting European and Near East extraction; (2) criollo (creole), meaning light mestizo in this context but actually of varying complexion; (3) mestizo, an imprecise category that includes many phenotypic variations; and (4) indio, also an imprecise category. These are nominal categories, and neither güero/blanco nor criollo is a widely used term (see Nutini 1997: 230). Nevertheless, there is a popular consensus in Mexico today that these four categories represent major sectors of the nation and that they can be arranged into a rough hierarchy: whites and creoles at the top, a vast population of mestizos in the middle, and Indians (perceived as both a racial and an ethnic component) at the bottom. This popular hierarchy does not constitute a stratificational system or even a set of social classes, however, because its categories are neither exhaustive nor mutually exclusive. While very light skin is indeed characteristic of the country’s elite, there is no “white” (güero) class. Rather, the superordinate stratum is divided into four real classes—aristocracy, plutocracy, political class, and the crème of the upper-middle class—or, for some purposes, into ruling, political, and prestige classes (see Chap. 4). Nor is there a mestizo class, as phenotypical mestizos are found in all classes, though only rarely among the aristocracy and very frequently in the middle and lower classes. Finally, the bottom rungs are not constituted mainly of Indians, except in some localized areas, such as the Sierra Norte de Puebla (see Nutini and Isaac 1974: 149–203)." (Hugo Nutini & Barry Isaac - Social Stratification in Mexico 1500 - 2000 p. 55)·Maunus· ƛ · 04:11, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

STOP MESSING THE ARTICLE
Just leave it as it is, no one is saying Mexico is 99% white. One sixth is a decent educated guess from a reliable source. Others sources that use the 1921 census are not reliable for the same reason - it's almost 2011 here folks! It's almost 100 years after 1921! (Almost 90 years to be exact.) I see nothing wrong with the article, it's not exaggerating the white Mexican population, and it clearly states in the beginning, someone of "PREDOMINANTLY" European heritage. I think that the person who keeps deflating the number of whites is the same person who keeps massively inflating the number of Amerindians in Mexico. I mean, just stop, we're not in 1921 anymore. Amerindians made up over 50% of the population just 200 years ago, do Amerindians still make up over 50% of the populace? No! Move on already! Leave things as they are!
 * The peoblem isn't the ratio of whites to indians - the problem is that "white" isn't a category that is generally used in Mexico and there is not reliable statistics for how many people consider themselves white. This means that the article is basically OR.·Maunus· ƛ · 03:51, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

White is used by the population in Mexico. No reliable statistics? Who says, you? You seem to be clueless. This article is about the white people in Mexico. Even though Mexico has no racial census that doesn't mean the population does not use racial words to describe themselves, or that there are no external sources. So calm down child. Secret killer (talk) 19:16, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Title
Why not change the title to European Immigration in Mexico? Is more neutral and objective, that a "term" (White Mexican) unofficial of dubious origin?, or maybe create an more general article called Ethnography of Mexico. Regards.--GiovBag (talk) 11:16, 5 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Considering: a) The article refers to Mexican's population of European origin; and b) "White Mexican" is no recognized as an ethnic group, as has been demonstrated. The most logical and neutral thing to do is to rename the article, to Mexican of European descent, or something like that. Regards.--GiovBag (talk) 08:04, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

PROPOSAL, PLEASE READ.
I understand that the name "Mexicans of European Descent" is more neutral, but mestizos are also of European descent, and so are mulattos. But mestizos and mulattos are not white, per se. I propose we change the article's name back to "White Mexican" or "European Mexican" (the former is more preferable than the latter). I'm not even sure if there was a consensus to change the article's name to "Mexicans of European descent", was there? Also, I understand the phrase "White Mexican" isn't used in Mexico, but it is what those Mexicans are, and it is what you find on the internet if you search up "White Mexican" on Google or some search engine. I think that we need sources, but I think that needing a source for the name "White Mexican" is ridiculous. It's like needing a source for the names of "White Argentine", "White Brazilian", "White South African", etc. Also, there's an Afro-Mexican article, and the term "Afro-Mexican" is used mostly outside Mexico (and used on the inernet when talking about black Mexicans), but this is an English language wiki, so if "White Mexican", or "Afro-Mexican", or "Green Mexican" or whatever is not used alot in Mexico, it is used in English, especially by Americans (USA) who are used to calling people by their race, then nationality. Just like how the term "American people" here on the English wiki takes you to "People of the United States" because "American" means "U.S. national" most of the time in the English language. But if this was the Spanish or Portuguese language wiki, then "Americans" might redirect to "People of the Americas" (or as you would say in Spanish/Portuguese, "People of America"), since "American" in Spanish/Portuguese is correctly translated as "someone from the Americas". But this is the English language wiki, and also, "white" is more clearly meaning "pure or mostly pure" white, compared to "European descent" which can include mestizos, since they ARE descended from Europeans/they ARE of European descent (regardless of the fact that they are mixed race). It removes the disambiguation, since this page is after all about Mexican "criollos" and other Mexican non-mixed whites. One might argue, "how do we know they're pure white, alot of them have some non-white blood". Well, most white Americans are not exactly 100% pure white(Sex-biased gene flow in African Americans but not in American Caucasians)(http://backintyme.com/essays/?p=5 Afro-European Genetic Admixture in the United States, Frank Sweet), but they are white, since they look and identify as such. And the fact that most white Americans and white Mexicans have 2% to 10% (or even as much as 20%) nonwhite admixture doesn't mean they are now mestizos, especially since a white American or white Mexican would be in real life someone who LOOKS white and IDENTIFIES as such (regardless of whether there's a racial census in their countries to prove that those white-looking people identify as white). If you want to make "white" mean someone who is 100% pure white, then only people directly from Europe or 1st-generation European immigrants in the Americas would qualify as such (even then, depending on the country/region, most Europeans have some nonwhite admixture, [as was shown by a study that was posted on an online website] (averagely) ranging from 0.5% in Germany to 3% to 4% in Spain to 9% or 11% in Sicily). You're not going to tell me that a source is needed to prove that Mexicans like Ilan Stavans, Guillermo del Toro, and Elena Poniatowska are white, and I doubt those three identify as mestizos or Amerindians. --Fernirm (talk) 01:24, 25 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I support Fernirm's proposal. Even when it might sound racist, the word White is the best to synthesize the group of people the article is referred to; the Mexican citizens of predominantly European/Middle Eastern descent, and Caucasian phenotype. Although White Mexicans may share their language and part of their culture with Mestizo people, they have a diferent racial origin, and certainly do not share the same phenotype. Renaming the article "Mexicans of European descent" would make the article even more ambiguous, for Mestizo Mexicans are half-European descent, but they are not White. I propose to rename the article "White population in Mexico". The same criterion might be applied in White Argentine, White Latin American, and other similar articles. Thus, all this useless discussion on "existant or non-existant ethnic groups" and on BLP policy might be avoided.--Pablozeta (talk) 20:19, 26 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Don't change the title. The article is about people of European origin, and the same user Fernirm considers the current title is more neutral. The people of predominantly European origin is unformally called white (or güero) in Mexico, independent of the degree of mixing, which couldn't affect their cultural identification with the country of his ancestors. They have different ethnic origins (Spanish, Italians, Slavs, Germans, British, Scandinavians, Magyars, etc.) and all together don't constitute a new ethnic group. Caucasian phenotype is a terminology of classical anthropology, almost no longer used to classify human beings, especially after the discovery of the human genome. In fact there is no scientifically accepted rules to determine what "Caucasian phenotype" is.--GiovBag (talk) 23:16, 27 January 2011 (UTC)


 * You're missing my point, the word "white" more clearly means "of unmixed European descent", because mestizos and mulattos are also of European descent. And also, WAS THERE A GENERAL CONSENSUS TO CHANGE THIS ARTICLE'S NAME FROM "White Mexican" TO "Mexican of European descent"?--Fernirm (talk) 00:40, 28 January 2011 (UTC)


 * comment White Mexicans are not a different ethnic group from other Mexicans - they may be a different racial group, but not an ethnic one. In fact according to the most recent specialized sources "White" isn't even a group but a kind identity associated with the highest social echelons of Mexican society and correlated partly with a lightskinned phenotype. (Nutini & Isaac "Social Straitification in Central Mexico"). There is no source that supports calling either white mexicans or mexicans of european descent an ethnic group. Giovbag is right. The topic of this article isn't even sufficiently well describable to deserve an article - it should be redirected to Demography of Mexico or a new article called Social Stratification in Mexico.·Maunus· ƛ · 00:53, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Delete
Maunus is absolutely right, and considering, this article would be deleted.--GiovBag (talk) 12:01, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * We need to discuss each article on its merits, rather than arguing that because one article was deleted, another one should be. Nevertheless, I think the cogent points regarding the deleted 'white Argentine' article are also relevant here - if not more so. There is no evidence offered that 'Mexicans of European descent' constitute an ethnicity - indeed, what evidence there is seems to suggest that 'whiteness'/'European-ness' is a question of social class, and as such a deeply-contested issue. I've no doubt that an article on "Social Stratification in Mexico" would be more relevant, and better able to indicate the nuances and complexities of the subject. I can't see much in this article which would be directly relevant, so I'd support a move to delete. Meanwhile, can I suggest we try to avoid getting involved in the incivility and edit-warring that marred the debate over 'white Argentine' - it didn't really do anyone much credit. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:46, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. This article should not be deleted whatsoever. I think this article is educational. I mean, everyone has this stereotype that all mexicans are short and brown. As a white person from Latin America who is tired of all the stereotypes, I say it should not be deleted. (User:rman22)[User talk: rman22] 4:38, 20 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rman22 (talk • contribs)


 * The correct way to counter stereotypes is to demonstrate their falsehood, not introduce new ones. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:42, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

andythegrump please care to elaborate? What you just said makes absolutely no sense. How does it create more stereotypes??? The article deals with the white population of Mexico. If you are talking about social interactions in mexico then that is a different story. If you are saying that criollos are viewed as Mexicans along with dark skinned mexicans that is still different. It doesn't change the fact that mexico is still a diverse society. If you delete this article then lets delete the article that deals with Mexico's Indigenous population. The article says that most whites from Mexico are of Spanish descent. They are mexicans but they are still white as are the descendants of european immigrants that settled in the country. If you want to deal with how Mexican society views color, how talking about it in mexico is kind of taboo, then add the subject in the article. But deleting it will just continue the sterotype about people of mexican nationality. [User: Rman22] 8:41 pm, 21 February 2011 71.130.198.233 (talk) 04:44, 22 February 2011 (UTC)rman22


 * This artice is unnecessary. All information contained in it, exist in other ones: Mexican people, Immigration to Mexico and Demographics of Mexico. They are not an ethnic group, and this article seems original research. In fact, it is, to determine unilaterally the existence of an ethnic group not recognized by any publication, statement or valid source.--GiovBag (talk) 22:43, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

This article is necessary. Look, I'm not trying to start any argument here. BUT, I think this article is necessary for showing that Mexico definitely has color diversity. I don't understand why it has to be so wrong to acknowledge that. Rman22 (talk) 07:33, 3 March 2011 (UTC)rman22

reverting
The revision by givobag is not sourced properly. Which one of the complaints of the article is that "this article needs additional citations for verification." Giobag's revision has no merit. Secret killer (talk) 16:14, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The Mexicans of European descent are not an ethnic group, therefore the infobox is inappropriate. Consequently, I removed an entirely unsourced montage of supposed 'Mexicans of Euroepan descent'. Understand one thing: Ethnicity isn't about genetics, and nor is it about abstract geographical concepts (like 'Europe'). And neither is it about abstract 'racial' concepts (like 'whiteness'). Ethnicity is about how people define themselves. Regards.GiovBag (talk) 23:42, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

"The Mexicans of European descent are not an ethnic group, therefore the infobox is inappropriate."

Nobody is saying they are an ethnic group, and the infobox is not inappropriate. The infobox shows notable Mexicans of European descent and is totally relevant to the article.

"Consequently, I removed an entirely unsourced montage of supposed 'Mexicans of Euroepan descent'. "

Which montage are unsourced? And this seems contradictory since you are revising to a page that is unsourced.

"Understand one thing: ''Ethnicity isn't about genetics, and nor is it about abstract geographical concepts (like 'Europe'). And neither is it about abstract 'racial' concepts (like 'whiteness'). Ethnicity is about how people define themselves."

How people self-identify is influenced by so many things in society including geographical areas, etc. Again whether or not they are an ethnic group is irrelevant. That is a strawman you decide to put up to validate revising the article. This article is about Mexicans of predominantly European descent. Instead of arguing you could be helping to expand the article. Secret killer (talk) 19:33, 2 April 2011 (UTC)


 * If this article is about "Mexicans of predominantly European descent" then there clearly needs to be a reliable source that tells us how we determine whether an individual fits into this category - deciding for ourselves would be original research, and contrary to policy. Can you tell us where this source can be found? Actually, since the article title makes no mention of 'predominantly' European descent, one would have to suggest that any Mexican with any European ancestry would be included - on that basis, I'd suggest that the article should be renamed as "Almost all Mexicans"! AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:41, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

"If this article is about "Mexicans of predominantly European descent" then there clearly needs to be a reliable source that tells us how we determine whether an individual fits into this category - deciding for ourselves would be original research, and contrary to policy."

Not when it's so straight forward. You would be arguing for the sake of arguing. The  statement has to be to be backed up by reliable sources for it not to be considered original research. But we have something called making a consensus.

'''Can you tell us where this source can be found? Actually, since the article title makes no mention of 'predominantly' European descent, one would have to suggest that any Mexican with any European ancestry would be included - on that basis, I'd suggest that the article should be renamed as "Almost all Mexicans"!'''

First, we can easily change that statement. Second, read WP:TITLE. Thank you for participating in trying to make this article better. Secret killer (talk) 20:25, 2 April 2011 (UTC)


 * So, are you suggesting that we reach a consensus regarding what the article is about? If you are suggesting that it should be about anything other than Mexicans with any European ancestors, the title will need to be changed. If you propose any other definition, you will also have to demonstrate that the definition is used elsewhere. This is straightforward. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:34, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

 "So, are you suggesting that we reach a consensus regarding what the article is about?"

No I never suggested that.

'If you are suggesting that it should be about anything other than Mexicans with any'' European ancestors, the title will need to be changed. '''

No you are wrong. I'll leave it to you to find out why.

''' If you propose any other definition, you will also have to demonstrate that the definition is used elsewhere. This is straightforward.'''

If I suggest a completely different definition then yeah it needs to used in a reliable source. Secret killer (talk) 21:03, 2 April 2011 (UTC)


 * "No you are wrong. I'll leave it to you to find out why". No, if you are going to claim I'm wrong, you've got to demonstrate why. I notice that once again you are failing to address the central issue. Who is this article supposed to be about? How do we know whether someone comes within the (not-ethnic, not-'racial') subject group? Or are we just going to have to take your word on whether someone is sufficiently 'European' to be included? AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:12, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

"No, if you are going to claim I'm wrong, you've got to demonstrate why."

Actually I don't have to. If you read the article I gave you then you should know why. Arguing with you is not productive and it's not making this article better. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing it seems.

 "I notice that once again you are failing to address the central issue."

How am I not addressing the central issue when I am replying to you? Everything that you have said I have replied.

"Who is this article supposed to be about?"

I have already stated that. Mexicans of European descent unless I am wrong. Please tell me if I am wrong.

'''How do we know whether someone comes within the (not-ethnic, not-'racial') subject group? Or are we just going to have to take your word on whether someone is sufficiently 'European' to be included? "''' To be included a person must have ancestry to the continent of Europe. Secret killer (talk) 21:49, 2 April 2011 (UTC)


 * In which case, the lede (such as it is) will need to be revised to reflect this. Clearly not every Mexican with any European ancestry is going to be referred to as "güero" or "blanco" - and the word 'predominantly' will have to go too. And the term 'heritage' is ambiguous in this context too. On that basis, the lede should read "A Mexican of European descent is a Mexican citizen of at least partly European ancestry". Not much of a lede, but it seems to fit your definition. Or have you got a better suggestion? AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:21, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

"In which case, the lede (such as it is) will need to be revised to reflect this. Clearly not every Mexican with any European ancestry is going to be referred to as "güero" or "blanco" - and the word 'predominantly' will have to go too."

I do not know what the source says about that. So even if what you said is true, that not every Mexican is called blanco, etc., obviously most or some are called that. Which is still relevant to the article. You can take out the word predominantly.

"And the term 'heritage' is ambiguous in this context too. On that basis, the lede should read "A Mexican of European descent is a Mexican citizen of at least partly European ancestry". Not much of a lede, but it seems to fit your definition. Or have you got a better suggestion?"

Heritage is used in the Britannica source. Why not just say that "A Mexican of European descent is a Mexican citizen of European ancestry." I don't know what is wrong with the word heritage? Or why don't we change the title to European Mexican? Secret killer (talk) 22:52, 2 April 2011 (UTC)


 * 'European Mexican' is clearly no good as a title - as I suggested, if this article is about every Mexican with any European ancestry it is entirely possible that a significant proportion will not be particularly 'European' at all, either in terms of ancestry, or culturally. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:19, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

 European Mexican' is clearly no good as a title

Yes it is. It fits well with the policy of wikipedia.

as I suggested, if this article is about every Mexican with any European ancestry it is entirely possible that a significant proportion will not be particularly 'European' at all, either in terms of ancestry, or culturally.

Europeans and mestizo are considered a separate group. And many independent sources back this up. So what is the problem? Secret killer (talk) 00:23, 3 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Considered by whom? If that is true, then once again, we need an answer: who is this article about? You seem to be arguing one thing one minute, and another the next. It can only be about (a) Mexican citizens of entirely European ancestry, (b) Mexican citizens of predominantly European ancestry, or (c) Mexican citizens having some European ancestry. We need to clearly state in the lede which group we are discussing. We also need to confirm that when sources refer to 'European Mexicans', they are referring to the same group. I ask you to please make clear once and for all who you consider this article to be about. If you are not prepared to do this, I can only assume that you don't actually know yourself, or do not wish to answer the question for some undisclosed reason. In either case, a refusal to answer a simple question can only be interpreted as obstruction, and as a violation of expected standards. So give us a straight answer for once: what makes someone a 'Mexican of European descent'? AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:46, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

By institutions and encyclopedias. When you are talking about demographics and display the percentage of one group in the country and display the percentage of another group in a country, you are recognizing that they are not the same unless stated otherwise. I'm just informing that this is the case. I have already stated what this article is about. Mexicans of European descent. I have already gave you my take on the definition and the meaning is so straight forward. A Mexican who has their origins or ancestry or however you want to put it to the continent of Europe. I have said this ad nauseum, and I am done saying it. Secret killer (talk) 03:46, 3 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Since you refuse to clarify who you think this article is about, I suspect the best policy will be to start a WP:RfC on the issue, and let a wider range of contributors decide. On the other hand, I suspect that it may be simpler to move for AfD, on the grounds that this article is nothing other than a POV-fork from Immigration to Mexico - it covers nothing whatsoever that can't logically be dealt with in this or other articles. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:19, 3 April 2011 (UTC)