Talk:White Pass and Yukon Route

Metric
Inconsistant use of abbreviations of distances are noted. Suggest either spell it out in numerals or letters but not both.

As for Horsepower, this appears to be metric conversion for the sake of conversion. North American practice uses "horsepower" and as far as I am aware so does European practice. So, suggest eliminating metric rating.

R.L.Kennedy 29 June 2005 19:27 (UTC)
 * Nah nah, the use of kilowatt (kW) is now European practice, besides the European or metric horsepower differs somewhat from its imperial counterpart. See Horsepower and Horsepower
 * Peter Horn 02:25, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Name
It's the White Pass and Yukon Route, there's no 'Railway' or 'Railroad' in the name. Please don't do moves without research. Furthermore, references to 'White Pass and Yukon Railway' are incorrect and inaccurate, so I am going to remove that from the intro paragraph.

The railway was only one part of a whole integrated transportation network, comprising ocean-going ships, railway, riverboats, trucks, etc. That's why it was 'route' not 'railroad'/'railway'. &mdash;Morven 04:01, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)
 * Oops, did I move it to Railroad last? Anyway, http://whitepassrailroad.com/company/index.html "The White Pass & Yukon Route Railway is the "Scenic Railway of the World."" The article is, and should be, primarily about the current company, and then about the history of the line and connections. --SPUI 04:23, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't think that that is part of the official name of the railway. Note that their mailing address is 'White Pass & Yukon Route', with no 'Railway' in the name.  Their web site and literature uses the bare name or adds 'Railroad' or 'Railway' indiscriminately, and I don't think either really has official standing.  Their owner, Tri-White Corporation, only mentions 'White Pass & Yukon Route'.  Their emblem mentions no 'Railroad' nor 'Railway'.


 * In sum, I think you're reading a little too much into the first line on that web page. &mdash;Morven 04:40, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)

Hmmm, I'm going to look for official and semi-official sources.

http://www.rrb.gov/blaw/bcd/bcd02-23.html

"In B.C.D. No. 00-9, issued on March 24, 2000, the Board held that Pacific and Arctic Railway and Navigation Company (PARN) was an employer under the RRA and the RUIA from December 20, 1979 to April 30, 1988. PARN is an Alaskan corporation which merged with a West Virginia corporation of the same name on December 20, 1979."

"PARN is one of three related railroads which conduct service under the trade name of the White Pass and Yukon Route (White Pass). The other two related railroads are the British Columbia-Yukon Railway Company (BCYR) and British-Yukon Railway Company Limited (BYR)."

"White Pass Enterprises, LLC was organized on November 5, 2001, as a limited liability company in the State of Alaska. It is a wholly owned subsidiary of White Pass & Yukon U.S. Inc., which is also the parent company and sole owner of PARN."

http://www.rrb.gov/oig/pdf/SEMIRPTS/Semi399.pdf

"In February 1997, OI received an anonymous complaint on its hotline which alleged that the White Pass and Yukon Route Railroad (WPYR) was not reporting certain employees to the RRB. WPYR is a scenic passenger railroad that operates May through September each year between Skagway, Alaska and Fraser, British Columbia, Canada."

http://www.rrb.gov/oig/pdf/SEMIRPTS/Semi999.pdf

"During this reporting period, the U.S. District Court for the State of Alaska imposed final sentence against the White Pass and Yukon Route Railroad under the terms of a plea agreement which was reported in the Semiannual Report to Congress for the period ending March 31, 1999."

http://www.cta-otc.gc.ca/rulings-decisions/decisions/1997/R/666-R-1997_e.html

"Certificate No. 97023 issued to the Pacific and Arctic Railway and Navigation Company, the British Columbia Yukon Railway Company and the British Yukon Railway Company, all carrying on business as the White Pass & Yukon Route, on June 30, 1997, permits them to operate a railway between White Pass Summit, British Columbia, and Whitehorse, Yukon Territory."

http://www.cta-otc.gc.ca/rulings-decisions/orders/1990/R/1990-R-609_e.html

"AND WHEREAS the Passenger Train Service Order declares the service provided by White Pass & Yukon Corporation a passenger-train service;"

http://www.cta-otc.gc.ca/rulings-decisions/decisions/2000/R/25-R-2000_e.html

"On September 17, 1999, Dave Gyles (hereinafter the complainant) filed a complaint with the Canadian Transportation Agency (hereinafter the Agency) respecting the transfer of a portion of the White Pass & Yukon Route Railway, between mileages 110.5 and 112.0, by the British Yukon Railway Company (hereinafter BYR) to the Government of Yukon and the City of Whitehorse. The complainant alleges that BYR did not follow the abandonment provisions of the National Transportation Act, 1987, R.S.C., 1985, c. 28 (3rd Supp.) (hereinafter the NTA, 1987) and that British Yukon Railway Company Limited (hereinafter BYR Limited) did not follow the transfer and discontinuance provisions of the Canada Transportation Act, S.C., 1996, c.10 (hereinafter the CTA)."

Ugh. These don't even agree. Further complicating it is the fact that it is in two countries. But it looks like you were right - it's run by several companies that do use the term Railway, but they use the fictitious name White Pass and Yukon Route.

--SPUI 05:01, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Quite a mess. It does appear that White Pass & Yukon Route is the most common name under which all of these entities do business as, though. &mdash;Morven 05:14, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)


 * I have seen the railway referred to in several places as the White Pass & Yukon Railway. Digging around a bit, I can't find any references to that being the official name, but I'll do some more research.  At any rate, the article's back at the right title now, so I'm happy.  P.S.  There were some double redirects left out there that I'm fixing. JYolkowski 21:56, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Other Miscellany
White Pass has enjoyed a history too free from scrutiny. There are many interesting items which deserve mention here, and so I'll put some points in the talk page as a place-holder for future edits I intend to do;

-2014-
 * Mention White Pass oil spills in Skagway.
 * Mention federal charges against two of White Pass' officials (and resulting jail time for one, which he was promoted by the company for.)
 * Mention death of WP officials.
 * Mention the collapsed Railroad Dock in Skagway, and the resulting death of a worker in the debris.
 * Mention why they had to shut down their oil pipeline (pipeline too close to passenger-carrying rail.)
 * Mention problems Carcross residents had with WP business tactics (Old Train Depot, Riverboat Warehouse.) Include unsuccessful attempts to take over successful business by refusing to renew lease terms.
 * Mention ecological clean-ups in the Carcross area of creosote-polluted land and water.
 * Mention of railway abandonment (or lack thereof) for section between the ghost-town Bennett City and Whitehorse, and why YTG granted White Pass a second lease (for promotion o/ tourism.)
 * Discussion of decline of fuel/freight company into pure tourism (although this is mostly covered already.)
 * Mention White Pass oil barrels washing up on Carcross beaches. Kothog 18:04, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
 * As for September 2014, The WhitePass route from Fraser to Skagway is operational(I boarded it), anyone can clarify if the issues of the July 23 accident were cleared?. --187.254.16.139 (talk) 21:46, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Map
The route map is not accurate. Whitehorse is in the wrong location! It's up along the Yukon River about a bearing of 300 degrees from the end of Marsh Lake, with a nearly straight rail line north from Carcross on a bearing of about 340 degrees or so. I don't know how to edit that map! It definitely does not curve to the west and end in the mountains! GBC 15:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * GBC is absolutely right. I wish I could edit that map & I would not hesitate a second to do so.

Peter Horn 01:30, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I put in a revised map. I left the old one there, because I have no idea if the old map is protected by some kind of copyright that renders my revision illegal. If it is an illegal revision, it can be deleted from the article and from the Wikipedia database without have to reinsert the original. The revision also shows the Alaska and Klondike Highways which are adjacent to the railroad. I did the edits using the rudimentary "Paint" program that came with my computer. GBC 23:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The long and the short of it is: either edit this map or, if that is not possible, find a better one.

Peter Horn 01:45, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Nothing has been done by anybody!!!! Peter Horn 01:08, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

White Pass and Yukon Route
450 tons of explosives. Were that long or short tons?

Peter Horn 01:30, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

White Pass and Yukon Route
It could have been Iraq instead of Iran. The former has metre gauge track from Baghdad to Basra.

Peter Horn 02:43, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Steam engines sold to Dollywood?
I am having difficulty believing the recent additions that several of the steam engines were sold to Dollywood based on dates. The engines noted were sold in the 1960s but Dollywood opened in 1986. Soapy (talk) 20:10, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Locomotive # 72 build date and damage by fire
There is a problem with the dates for locomotive #72. The latest edit indicates the locomotive was damaged by fire four years before it was built. Can someone check the build date and/or the date of fire damage? (or maybe the fire damaged a different locomotive?) Thewellman (talk) 00:29, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Frozen Locomotives???
And on the subject of locomotive retirement dates vs disposition dates.....I knew a fellow who worked on the ALCAN highway. He told me a number of the locomotives used to transport highway construction materials were damaged by firemen and engineers inexperienced with cold weather operation. He claimed some locomotive castings were broken by freezing water. Can anyone find a written source to confirm this? The large number of nearly new locomotives scrapped or retired after a single year of operation seems unusual; although it could be an example of typical wastage of military supplies when the job is over. Thewellman (talk) 01:12, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Diesel locomotive 103
It seems strange to me that locomotives 101-110 all have sequential serial numbers, but while # 103 is described as "ALCO Model Series C-14", the remainder of the series is described as "MLW-Worthington Model Series C-14", all are listed as MLW production, but only this one has the ALCO description. Wuhwuzdat (talk) 14:16, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * per this reference[], I am updating the information on this loco to match the others in its batch. Wuhwuzdat (talk) 16:09, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

The article states that the DL535Es were not used by STF while in Colombia. This is false. The units were indeed used frequently by STF, I saw the units in the STF shops at Facatativa when they were being prepared for return to WPY. According to Pedro Puerto, the Facatativa shop manager, the units were a favorite of the train crews because they were good pullers. Here is an excerpt from an article that I wrote for The Short Line several years ago, it describes the situation with the units; they were being sold back to WPY because STF was in financial straits and needed the money.

"...In contrast, business was on the upswing on the White Pass & Yukon. Although the ore mines never reopened, a new and lucrative traffic base appeared in 1988: Cruise ship passengers calling at Skagway to experience the spectacular scenery along the White Pass Route. Increasing passenger volumes during the nineties severely taxed the line’s motive power, a condition worsened by a lack of suitable narrow gauge equipment on the world market.

Ironically, it was STF that eventually came to the rescue. In a reversal of roles, STF recalled its DL-535Es to Facatativá to prepare them for sale back to the WP&Y. The units had last been used in heavy haul service for a major dam construction project at Porce and were in need of maintenance and repair. By May 1998, all units were in the shop for the following work: 1101 (WPY 101) for main generator repairs; 1102 (WPY 103) for a prime mover rebuild; 1103 (WPY 104) for a traction motor rebuild; 1104 (WPY 106) for regular maintenance; and 1105 (WPY 107) for a main generator rebuild. In addition, all units except 1102 were re-winterized and repainted into WP&Y’s green-and-yellow scheme. The prime mover in 1102 was never rebuilt, relegating the unit to parts-supply status.

On May 5, 1999, STF delivered the DL-535Es to the port of Santa Marta for their return to Alaska. It was not all smooth sailing, however. In late July, the barge carrying the locomotives encountered rough seas off California, dislodging and damaging 1101. A maintenance call at Eureka rectified the situation and the locomotives continued on to Skagway, arriving on July 30 without further incident." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.144.154.93 (talk) 23:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Northwestel directory cover
Could the contributor who deleted the telephone directory cover please comment on my talk page? It had been suggested that I delete the image from Wikipedia as it was no longer in an article. Perhaps among the three of us, we can resolve whether it can be used.

I had not scanned the phonebook cover using my scanner, merely taken a photograph of it, to limit its resolution quality. It has been 28.7 years (May 1, 1982) since it was published... what is the copyright period on photographs? GBC (talk) 15:15, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Reduce the width
In White Pass and Yukon Route, can some one reduce the width of the Railway line header? Peter Horn User talk 15:03, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Collapsed and hidden. FairFare (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:45, 20 February 2012 (UTC).

Switchback(s) on this route?
If I see the tracking of the route, I do have serious doubts, there has been a switchback/zic zac anywhere on WP & YR in the past. Yes, there is a photo uploaded of a switchback and it is said to be on this route, but I can not see any part, where it had made sense and/or was necessary to climb heigth AND where is the tracking remains of a switchback. Is someone able to verify the source of this photo, which is named as "Hegg Album 3, page 35" and check, what is the original title of this picture? Anna Catarina (talk) 07:44, 6 July 2024 (UTC)