Talk:White Wolf Publishing

Orpheus
Orpheus (game) probably ought to be properly located in the "The World of Darkness game lines" section instead of the "Other games" section. Although it was a limited duration game, it was intended to be part of standard WoD canon, rather than existing outside standard the standard World of Darkness, like Aberrant.

Oh, and there's an article already written for Orpheus (role-playing game), so it ought to probably link to that, rather than Orpheus (game). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.106.249.198 (talk • contribs) 01:35, June 25, 2004‎

White Wolf, Inc.
This appears to be the legal company name. Other names include "White Wolf Game Studio", "White Wolf Publishing", "White Wolf Publishing, Inc.", "White Wolf". Not sure which of these are legal entities. -- Netoholic 01:15, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

On the subject of the "White Wolf" name...
Not quite on topic, but a note about some personal mayhem that "White Wolf games" made in my life. :)

I started using the online alias "White Wolf" way back in the mid 80's and had a decent reputation for myself while using it around the various gaming BBS's (including my own) of that decade & one later.

Though, lately, many people are now accusing me of 'stealing' the "White Wolf" moniker, even though I try to explain to them that my use of it (online & in gaming circles) predates that of the companies! For reference, see (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=World+of+Cendri+BBS&btnG=Search or http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Gameling+BBS&btnG=Search or http://bbsmates.com/viewbbs.aspx?id=105408) for evidence of my using it While Sysoping (& Suboping) BBS's in the late 80's & early 90's. (If someone digs well enough, they'll probably see that I've been using this alias online since sometime before 1984...)

I've even been (rather forcibly) told by certain idiotic individuals that White Wolf games has prior a 'copyright'/'trademark' on the use of the "White Wolf" name/moniker online and that I would get in trouble for my use of it. Even though I've explained to these same people that can't be the case, since

1) "White Wolf" is a generic term, and therefore rather impractical for that. Just as it is for Tucows or Gateway to go bitching at me about their 'copyright' to the Holstein cow bit if I used it as a avatar/Icon image

2) Multiple companies have used "White Wolf" in their names previously. [I can immediately point to one company called "The White Wolf" (http://www.thewhitewolf.com/) located at 9242 Hudson Blvd Lake Elmo MN 55042 (612-739-1440) which pre-dates White Wolf games use of the name and image of "White Wolf".]

3) I've been told by my past BBS users & RPG players that it's fairly likely that someone at "White Wolf Games" knew me perhaps personally or by reputation, back when it started and though they weren't giving me any credit for it, knew a good gaming name when they saw it and simply "appropriated" it for themselves... :)

The end result of all this silliness being, of course, my having to side step all this hoopla by using another similar alias (cmdrwhitewolf) so that some of my old online friends still recognize me. But I still get into trouble sometimes anyway!

Being an old timer (gamer & Sysop) has it's fun moments sometimes... :)

- '''Cmdr White Wolf Aka Tim Sireno''' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.173.116.174 (talk • contribs) 12:24, January 14, 2005.


 * Edit 02/01/16::

I fixed another broken link. -WW — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cmdrwhitewolf (talk • contribs) 08:11, May 5, 2005 Cmdr White Wolf (talk) 17:52, 1 February 2016 (UTC) --- Additional -- I apologize for sucking at Wikipedia editing. I knew the Wiecks when they were teens getting into gaming, and also as adults, as my ex-husband worked for them. From 1982-84 or so, I and other friends worked at Gateway Books in Walnut Square Mall in Dalton, Georgia. As some of us "aged out" and went to college, we were replaced with new, younger employees, mostly from the same extended circle. When the Wiecks began working there, they had already begun creating a 'zine, which they eventually sold at the store for, as I recall, $1.00 an issue. The reason for the name was as a nod to Michael Moorcock's writing, particularly the Elric things. White Wolf the fanzine evolved into White Wolf the magazine, which in time merged with Lion Rampant Games, which was Mark Rein-dot-Hagen's company.

The point of this history lesson is that a) the company's use of the name dates back to about 1983, at least (I don't know how long before it was being sold at the store the guys were making the 'zine), and that had nothing to do with appropriating your name. When the name was chosen, the gaming company didn't exist, and I honestly don't think the Wiecks *had* BBS access -- it was a very small town.

Leigh Ann Hildebrand — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.81.244.128 (talk • contribs) 21:41, May 30, 2006

Hey, Net Punks!
Hello- I don't know the whole story, but it's sort of grown in the retellings I've heard... if anyone has the time, could they try a synopsis of the "Hey, Net Punks!" net-marketing fiasco?

I mean, for those of us who weren't 'there'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.156.69.6 (talk • contribs) 19:57, September 19, 2005 I know it's 16 years late but the relevant thread is here:

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.games.whitewolf/c/ZLVNWrOIAOM — Preceding unsigned comment added by James davis nicoll (talk • contribs) 03:12, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Vampire:The Eternal Struggle
Is there, perchance, an article on V:TES or anything related to it? I can't find anything about it here. Is there some kind of taboo or something? The Great Gavini most useless member of Clan Gangrel

Inaccuracy in Text?
"V:TES, perhaps the most successful of the bunch, was originally published by Wizards of the Coast in 1994 but was abandoned just two years later. White Wolf acquired rights to the game in 2000, despite it being out of print for nearly 7 years."

1994 + 2 Years = 1996. White Wolf acquiring the rights in 2000 would be four years later; 7 years would be 2003. Which year did V:TES go into White Wolf's control? I honestly don't know, but this is an inaccuracy to be fixed. --209.131.56.14 23:18, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Promethean: The Created
Just noting that there isn't a page (yet) for the fourth game in the new World of Darkness line. 71.51.46.247 21:33, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Demon Hunter X
There's no mention or article for this Whitewolf game that I can find. It's from 1998 or so, oWoD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.156.71.212 (talk • contribs) 13:28, September 21, 2006
 * This wasn't a seperate game, but just an supplement that was not for a particular game, but a general WoD book. Therefor it is: WoD: Demon Hunter X, just like WoD: Combat, WoD: Gypsies, WoD: Mafia etc...Heinrich k 13:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Age of Sorrows
There's substancial evidence that the Age of Sorrows products are part of the same setting as the Old World of Darkness material (Wraith, Vampire, Hunter, Mage, Werewolf, etc.) rather than its own setting. The gods of the setting, such as the Unconquered Sun, Five Maidens, Luna and Gaia are prominent in Werewolf--as are the spirits who are organized in largely identical manner though known by different names. The Wyld and its children the Fae (as well as Changelings who have bonded to humans) exist in both settings. The Underworld has exactly the same geography, along with leaders called Deathlords and masters called Neverborn, the latter of which are pretty much unchanged. Autochthonia exists in both settings, being a center of activity for the Alchemical Exalted in the Age of Sorrows, and for the Technocracy in the Old World of Darkness. There a prediction in the Age of Sorrows setting of a coming World of Darkness, and even the introduction is written for a modern day audience and explains how scientists have lied about the origins of the world, and that the Exalted line is intended as an exploration of this primordial era. Okay so it's largely a moot point since the destruction of that world in the Time of Judgement and the introduction of an entirely new alternate "World of Darkness" setting, but it seems worth noting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grimcleaver (talk • contribs) at 11:18, December 5, 2006
 * I remember the promotional material before they'd even released the name of Exalted, "Before the World of Darkness... there was something else." Something like that.  But this may be something similar to a Shadowrun / Earthdawn dichotomy, in that, while originally planned to share an ancient past / present connection as the game lines developed they moved away from that connection.  It should be worth noting, if nothing else for historical purposes, I'll add something if I can find a stable, reliable reference.  kitsune361 19:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Took me the whole of 20 minutes w/ Google to find this: http://www.white-wolf.com/Games/Pages/Exalted/exaltedarticle.html but I'm noticing this is covered in the Exalted page :^\  kitsune361 19:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Black Dog Game Factory
It would be nice to see some mention of this company and its products, an even more "adult" line of roleplaying products, and interestingly, a play off of a fictional self-referencial series of roleplaying games that are said to exist in the Old World of Darkness setting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grimcleaver (talk • contribs) at 11:18, December 5, 2006

Authors/Artists etc...
Ok, who here thinks that, while listing the authors and artists might be a good idea, they should be on a separate page? And to whomever has recently edited this page... you have made it so there are THREE "References" sections, with the same links in each one. Fix please? Or go to a previous version of the page and start over. Edited by: Pdboddy 13:16, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * On a similar subject, the author section looks as if one was merged from elsewhere and could really use cleaning; I've put up a cleanup tag to attract editors who have done section restructuring before. -- GJD 15:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, that's a good idea, thank you. I am pondering doing it myself, cleaning up the whole article and putting the artists and authors on their own page.  Though, in all honesty, most of the authors and artists have their own pages already, with the work they've done.  Would not a list of links for said authors and artists suffice for the main White Wolf page? Pdboddy 15:25, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * If the authors/artists have pages already in Wikipedia, I'd say the list of links is probably sufficient; I'd be surprised if their White Wolf work isn't mentioned in their articles. For the ones that don't, the question would be if the author/artist is considered notable enough for Wikipedia; otherwise the new articles could find themselves up for deletion far too quickly!  -- GJD 04:01, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup shall commence shortly. Pdboddy 01:46, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I've removed the section on author's and artists. If someone thinks the authors/artists have merit, I think it might be best to link their pages to the White Wolf page.  Having in depth sections on artists and authors makes as much sense as having in depth descriptions of their individual game lines.  Which is to say, not much sense at all. Pdboddy 01:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Street Fighter
Street Fighter (like the video game series) was also compatible with minor conversions, my friends and I used to play a mixture of characters, one was a werewolf, another a vampire, another a mage, mummmy, a street fighter, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.74.105.1 (talk • contribs) 02:45, July 13, 2007
 * But it was not intended to be. Other games would, with conversions, be able to be played together with WoD, likt Trinity perhaps. So, what do you exactly try to say. Heinrich k 12:41, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Sources For Changeling and Promethean?
Why are we providing sources for these games. Both are common knowledge.

"Common Knowledge is the body of information considered to be known by most people (or at least those sharing a common culture)." -Wikipedia "A good rule of thumb is to ask yourself if a knowledgeable reader would be familiar with the information." -

With both of these ideas in mind, the common individuals would be roleplayers familiar with the White Wolf Inc. game lines. 74.161.65.20 19:28, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The people coming to wikipedia for information on White Wolf are, by and large, not going to be familiar with the White Wolf game lines, or at least not all the lines. Petronivs 23:35, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


 * In all honesty it is an abuse of citations. I beg to differ with your statement about people not being familiar with White Wolf because that's like saying that "people coming to Wikipedia are, by and large, not going to be familiar with the qwerty keyboard's history."  Of course they're not, they come to the site to learn about the material.  We have information readily available on Changeling: The Lost and Promethean: The Created, both of which provide the information established by the sources provided.


 * SEE: WP:REF


 * "All material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a source." - Wikipedia


 * This material is not likely to be challenged here because it is a list. You can walk into Barnes and Nobel and see that Promethean exists and you can easily pre-order Changeling: the Lost on Amazon.com, White-Wolf.com, bn.com, drivethrurpg.com, and any other major retailer for books and RPG eBooks.


 * If you need a better example as to how much a waste of space it is look at it this way. If you cite every game on the page, you would have 45 citations, not including the "Time of Judgement" and core rulebook for the nWoD.  In fact the only game on the page the would even remotely qualify for a citation in this instance is the Street Fighter game which doesn't have any reliable sources since WW has seemingly "disowned it with good cause."


 * I am removing the references because they add nothing to the article and they cannot be disputed as they have an entire page dedicated to their existence (which provide the same exact info as the sources). The information is immediately repeated in the articles for each specific game.  If you want proof, follow the links above and scroll to the links at the bottom of the page.  If you want to add the sources back, add them for Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage as well.  Cadwal 05:11, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Instead of permanently removing the links, I am transferring the link to the "confirmation" of "Changeling: The Lost" title to the appropriate Wiki page. Cadwal 05:13, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Citing for Projected WoD Online
I believe I know where to find the source for this; however, I am currently unable to access White-Wolf.com. Cadwal 05:38, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I found the source already being used on the page and adjusted the section accordingly. Cadwal 22:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

FYI: Proposed deletions
I've just proposed that the stubs on Stewart and Steve Wieck be deleted. I'm hoping someone here feels like adding content to the articles and documenting these authors' notability. Failing that, if they're already gone by the time you read this, feel free to add them back with more information. Jclemens (talk) 03:04, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Shut down of White Wolf
I've reverted the changes added today after the announcement of redunancies at CCP. The press release linked does not talk about this directly affecting White Wolf staff and the following forum post suggests otherwise: http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1195521#post1195521


 * People keep editing this to make it seem worse than it is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.126.183.211 (talk) 05:45, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I edited it to fit what was actually said in that thread: White Wolf is down in manpower, but they will continue to release. I included the quote from now ex-employee Russell Bailey that stated that he would continue work on a freelance basis. Why was that deleted? I cited sources too, and even though White Wolf is *not* dissolved as originally suggested, they *are* affected by these layoffs. 80.63.34.114 (talk) 07:47, 21 October 2011 (UTC)


 * "White Wolf" is currently an imprint used by CCP Transmedia. It has two employees who predominantly deal with WW rather than MMO things: Eddy Webb and Rich Thomas. Both are still employed by CCP, the release schedule is still intact, and new products are in planning. Aside from personal reasons (like Eddy's wife being one of the people laid off), White Wolf is not affected by these layoffs. --Ian (talk/contribs) 10:06, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Russell Bailey was fired as a fulltime employee. How is that for not affecting White Wolf? I never said they were shutting down, I specifically changed the original change's false statement in that regard, with the facts. Did you read my contribution at all? 80.63.34.114 (talk) 10:18, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Some prominent employees are not most employees. You did say that the company is "essentially defunct," which is also innaccurate as they are still publishing and remain just as much as subsidiary of CCP as they were prior to the layoffs. Even the employee you referenced (Russell Bailey) continues working with White Wolf as a developer. You've even titled the section "Dissolution of White Wolf" despite the company not being dissolved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sparketh (talk • contribs) 18:40, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
 * To make this more accurate and remove the conjecture about the information linked, I've restored that section to how it appeared on October 21, 2001. I've also changed the title to "October 2011 Layoffs" instead of "Recent Layoffs" as it appeared then since "recent" is a relative term that will innaccurately describe the layoffs in the future. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sparketh (talk • contribs) 21:28, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

As a current CCP and White Wolf employee, I will update the changes to be more accurate. - Eddy Webb — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eddyfate (talk • contribs) 21:07, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Despite the efforts of myself, Sparketh, and several others (including Eddyfate, himself a White Wolf employee), 108.92.106.131 keeps changing the page to claim that White Wolf have been dissolved an no longer exists. It's getting ridiculous. Can a mod prevent him from editing, perhaps? --Ian (talk/contribs) 21:40, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
 * A protection was denied on Requests for page protection. Reason: "...as it is mostly just one user. I've given him a warning against edit warring. Report him to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring if he persists." Not sure how this will work with a dynamic-IP, but okay, this is how it is for now. Heinrich krebs (talk) 16:37, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Moved to White Wolf Publishing Mike Cline (talk) 13:13, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

White Wolf → White Wolf Publishing – A white wolf is a white wolf, White Wolf Publishing is a subsidiary of CCP games. This disambiguation is natural, and both White Wolf Publishing (page title) and their parent company (footer) use the term "White Wolf Publishing" to refer to this publisher. White Wolf should redirect to the wolf, even though it is capitalized, as many people expect species names to be capitalized (in fact, arctic wolf was just fixed from capialization, and most birds still are capitalized, like Golden Eagle). Nobody looking for the publisher will be surprised to see the wolf when typing "White Wolf", but those looking for a wolf would be surprised by anything else. ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  21:29, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Support: Principle of least astonishment.--Curtis Clark (talk) 21:41, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Support it's what appears on the logo in the article. 70.24.251.208 (talk) 04:55, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment the disambiguation page should be moved to this location. 70.24.251.208 (talk) 04:55, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:MOSTM. could then be left as a redirect to, or to the dab page (I don't think it should redirect to white wolf, as suggested above, because readers could equally be looking for the publisher). AFAICT the dab page itself shouldn't use capitals, per WP:TITLEFORMAT and WP:DABNAME, i.e.  should be moved to . -- Trevj (talk) 12:01, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose the move per WP:COMMONNAME; the common name of the publisher is "White Wolf", not "White Wolf Publishing". Oppose proposal (as it appears that Trevj immediately above does as well) to change the destination of the caps "White Wolf" to the wolf. See also WP:PRECISION and its example of Red Meat/red meat. People looking for the animal don't use title case (and the WP:BIRDS problem thankfully has not caught hold outside of that project). Also, the disambiguation page should use capitals, since the ambiguous title is title cased -- all but one of the entries there use capital-W Wolf. The lowercase title "white wolf" is not ambiguous. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:31, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Some Google searches for the common name. Since one alternative is a substring of the other, I've searched on "white wolf is" or "white wolf the" along with their world, "World of Darkness":
 * "world of darkness" "white wolf publishing" -("white wolf is" OR "white wolf the"): 42,500
 * "world of darkness" ("white wolf is" OR "white wolf the") -"white wolf publishing": 333,000.
 * Adding additional phrases showing "White Wolf" by itself would expand the gap.
 * JHunterJ, you're right that I do oppose the redirection of to . The proposed multiple moves should be listed explicitly. -- Trevj (talk) 13:26, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Support It's a publishing company. Simple enough. Intothatdarkness (talk) 14:46, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Please peruse Category:Publishing companies. We have no naming convention that all titles for articles on publishing companies include the word "publishing". Simple enough. -- JHunterJ (talk) 16:03, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * So? Makes more sense to me to use the "publishing" piece. You don't agree. That's fine. Intothatdarkness (talk) 22:15, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * So: to help the closing admin determine which disagreements are based on Wikipedia guidelines or conventions and which aren't. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:20, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. "White Wolf Publishing, Inc." would be even better, per Bloomberg and Amazon. Kauffner (talk) 06:49, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Generally, the Inc. isn't included in the title, per Naming conventions (companies), but it can (and probably should) be included in the bold intro text and infobox. ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  07:20, 8 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Support some form of disambiguation, so I'm happy enough with the original proposed title. White Wolf should redirect to White wolf because, although it is sometimes acceptable to disambiguate by capitalisation, I do not believe this to be one of these cases. As can be seen by this gscholar search, it is very common for scholarly sources to capitalise the animal as "White Wolf". While our house style means we should decapitalise the white wolf article, many scholarly publishers go the other way and it is likely that the majority of readers searching for "White Wolf" in an encyclopedia will be looking for the animal, not the publishing house. Jenks24 (talk) 07:07, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Support – It's the formal name of the company, helps disambiguate, and no one who uses the shorter form should find the longer form problematic. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:21, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Support per common sense, I'd say. Cavarrone (talk) 10:23, 17 June 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Lead section and notability
The lead should be edited to clearly establish notability. It is hard to discern the company's historical import as it stands.  czar  &middot;   &middot;  20:08, 19 October 2012 (UTC)