Talk:Whitewashing

Allegations against editors
User:StanZegel and Drboisclair are both stalkers that are reverting my contributions on wiki. They, along with other self-identified Lutherans are engaged in whitewashing and censoring here and On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies and everywhere else that scholarly research exposes their coreligionists connection to the history of antisemitism. If anyone knows how wiki attempts to control these fully documented rogue editors, please let me know.Doright 05:18, 31 December 2005 (UTC)


 * This statement is patently slanderous and without foundation, and it should be deleted at once. drboisclair 19:03, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Without foundation? How about the foundation provided by Dr Robert Michael [] that User:StanZegel and Drboisclair deleted?  It said:  "Luther scholars who defend, censor, or try to tone down his views on the Jews, ignore the murderous implications of Luther's antisemitism. Like the Nazis, Luther mythologized the Jews as completely evil: they should not be treated as humans and should be cast out of Germany. They could be saved if they converted to Christianity, but their demonic hostility to Christian society makes this inconceivable. There was a strong parallel between Luther's ideas and feelings about Jews and Judaism and the essentially anti-Jewish Weltanschauung of most German Lutherans throughout the Holocaust."  Reference - Abstract of Michael, Robert. "Luther, Luther Scholars and the Jews." Encounter 46 (1985) no. 4:339-356 in Annotated Bibliography of Antisemitism (BAS) [Database Online] Jerusalem: The Vidal Sassoon International Center for the Study of Antisemitism, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, SYSNO [0016087]. Doright 10:12, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

The carefully chosen instance of whitewashing
The intrusion of this alleged instance of whitewashing is not factual or supported in sources outside of Wikipedia. The editor adding this intrudes his POV into this article, which is contrary to principles of WP:NPOV and WP:OR drboisclair 19:09, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Luther scholars who defend, censor, or try to tone down Luther's views on the Jews whitewash his antisemitism
Your claim: "Not factual or supported by sources outside of Wikipedia." Well, how about this source? Abstract of Michael, Robert. "Luther, Luther Scholars and the Jews." Encounter 46 (1985) no. 4:339-356 in Annotated Bibliography of Antisemitism (BAS) [Database Online] Jerusalem: The Vidal Sassoon International Center for the Study of Antisemitism, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, SYSNO [0016087]. It says: "Luther scholars who defend, censor, or try to tone down his views on the Jews, ignore the murderous implications of Luther's antisemitism. Like the Nazis, Luther mythologized the Jews as completely evil: they should not be treated as humans and should be cast out of Germany. They could be saved if they converted to Christianity, but their demonic hostility to Christian society makes this inconceivable. There was a strong parallel between Luther's ideas and feelings about Jews and Judaism and the essentially anti-Jewish Weltanschauung of most German Lutherans throughout the Holocaust."Doright 10:12, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Hollywood Whitewashing
The section on hollywood whitewashing was removed from the article. The term is in regards to the Hollywood studios changing non-white characters in order to cast white actors for the roles.

In some cases, the stories are changed and the non-white characters become secondary or written off completely.

Whitewash (censorship) has it's own page. To add Hollywood whitewashing would overwhelm the other examples.

Nemogbr (talk) 21:47, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, I've incorporated the relevant info into the Whitewash (censorship) article already. There is no need for this separate article. Please stop reverting to your version - I guarantee you you will not like it if I take a critical eye to the problems and original research your version contains. TheRealFennShysa (talk) 22:32, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


 * 1. The whitewashing part of yellowface is removed and it should have it's own article.
 * 2. Lots of censorship in this article with no mention at all about the whitewashing involved.
 * 3. Only Manga and anime have been whitewashed? You mean African Americans and Native Americans have not been whitewashed from Hollywood films?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.12.184 (talk) 19:35, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * It all depends on the sources! If reliable sources can be found discussing African Americans and so on, put them in. Binksternet (talk) 20:48, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Whitewashing was supposed to be separated from the yellowface page as per Binksternet and I have done so. TheRealFennShysa kept deleting the body of text and redirecting to whitewash (censorship) and then wanted whitewashing added to that page, which would have overwhelmed the other examples.

The article has now been reduced from several paragraphs to two sentences and has the view that whitewashing tends to pertain only to Japanese cartoons. This looks more like an editor has decided to enact a whitewash (censorship) than ensuring the correct data is provided.

Nemogbr (talk) 19:08, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Left out the movie 21 76.254.11.75 (talk) 07:17, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

It keeps getting deleted.

Nemogbr (talk) 12:43, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Deletions by TheRealFennShysa
(cur | prev) 15:42, 27 July 2010 TheRealFennShysa (talk | contribs) (9,683 bytes) (Reverted 5 edits by Nemogbr; You want to insert it all? as multiple editors have contested it, YOU make the case on the talk page. (TW)) (undo)

'''Incorrect statement. These multiple editors have supported my original edits:'''

(cur | prev) 22:19, 26 July 2010 Silvercell2 (talk | contribs) (15,509 bytes) (Undid revision 370599460 by TheRealFennShysa (talk)) (undo) (cur | prev) 04:48, 27 June 2010 72.83.66.125 (talk) (21,587 bytes) (Undid revision 370310937 by TheRealFennShysa (talk)) (undo) (cur | prev) 05:14, 26 June 2010 Kiriemarie (talk | contribs) (21,176 bytes) (→Casting controversy: The Last Airbender) (undo) (cur | prev) 16:44, 22 June 2010 Schmooey82 (talk | contribs) (18,711 bytes) (Added more detail to body of text) (undo)

I left this article alone to see how it would progress, but with the obstruction of TheRealFennShysa and preferred version, the page has not progressed and improved.

Nemogbr (talk) 15:02, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Reverse Whitewashing
This section was made by another, but is not a section showing other films race-bended from white to non-white be appropriate?

Please state why it should be deleted.

Nemogbr (talk) 15:27, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Legend of Earthsea deleted by TheRealFennShysa

 * 2004 || Legend of Earthsea || Shawn Ashmore as Ged|| A loose adaptation of the award-winning Earthsea novels by Ursula K. Le Guin. It premiered as a two-night television event on the Sci-Fi Channel in December 2004. Le Guin was not involved in the development of the material or the making of the production and has written a number of responses to the mishandling of this adaptation of her works, including "A Whitewashed Earthsea" and "Frankenstein's Earthsea".

Why was this example deleted from the page? It has links to an open letter written by the author complaining of the whitewashing of her characters?

Nemogbr (talk) 15:10, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The Forbidden Kingdom deleted by TheRealFennShysa


-
 * 2008 || The Forbidden Kingdom || Michael Angarano as Xuanzhang renamed as Jason Tripitikas || One of the recent films where "whitewashing" occurs. The Asian character is changed into a White character. In this case, an all-American Caucasian kid saves ancient China, helped along the way by Jet Li and Jackie Chan.

We have the example of Kar from Bulletproof Monk who was originally of Tibetan origin and then changed into a white american protagonist. This fact has been established from graphic novel. The Forbidden Kingdom is a film about a white teenager saving Ancient China. The name change from Tripitaka to Triptakas is pretty much blatant.

I'd really like to find out the reasoning.

Nemogbr (talk) 15:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The Last Airbender deleted by TheRealFennShysa
From what I can see, the entry keeps getting deleted and other people are not being given the chance to find more links.

Nemogbr (talk) 15:17, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Speed Racer

 * 2008 || Speed Racer || Emil Hirsch, John Goodman, Susan Sarandon, Paulie Litt, and Scott Porter as the Racer family; Christina Ricci as Trixie; Matthew Fox as Racer X; Kick Gurry as Sparky; Nicholas Elia as Young Speed; Ariel Winter as Young Trixie|| Film based on the Japanese Anime, in which the family was originally named Mifune, Trixie was named Michi Shimura, and Sparky was named Sabu.
 * 2008 || Speed Racer || Emil Hirsch, John Goodman, Susan Sarandon, Paulie Litt, and Scott Porter as the Racer family; Christina Ricci as Trixie; Matthew Fox as Racer X; Kick Gurry as Sparky; Nicholas Elia as Young Speed; Ariel Winter as Young Trixie|| Film based on the Japanese Anime, in which the family was originally named Mifune, Trixie was named Michi Shimura, and Sparky was named Sabu.

This film is based upon the JAPANESE Anime.

Please state reasons as to why it should not be an example.

Nemogbr (talk) 15:22, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Casting controversy : 21 deleted by TheRealFennShysa

 * 2008 || 21 || Jim Sturgess as Ben Campbell || Please see above.

There are articles about the whitewashing of this film based upon mostly Asian-American characters and replaced with a white caucasian cast and one asian couple as secondary characters. Asia Pacific American groups like MANAA have complained about the production.

Please state as to why it should not be an example.

Nemogbr (talk) 15:25, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Australia: The Legend of Billy Sing
A television mini-series based on the book, The Legend of Billy Sing, is in post-production as of 2010. The production has attracted controversy due to the director's decision to cast actors of European ancestry in the roles of Sing and his father, since Sing's father was Chinese. Federal Queensland Liberal MP Don Cameron stated it was "tragically wrong" to have the bi-racial Chinese Australian played by a white person.

France: Alexandre Dumas
French Black actors and anti-racism campaigners were upset that the white star, Gérard Depardieu was cast as Alexandre Dumas, the country's biggest national hero with mixed blood. The blonde, blue-eyed Depardieu French star darkened his skin and wore a black wig in L'Autre Dumas, directed by Safy Nebbou. The producers made it clear that a big name white French actor would attract more cinema goers than a lesser known mixed race French thespian Dumas's paternal grandmother was a former Haitian slave. His father, a Napoleonic-era general, was deemed to be a Caribbean "negro". In his lifetime, the novelist was mocked for his African features and he called himself "un nègre".

EDIT conflict or deleted?

Nemogbr (talk) 16:06, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Discussion of references
The above talk entries attempt to discuss why this or that film should be included in the article, but I think that is going at it backwards. Wikipedia articles must be built from the bottom up, from reliable, verifiable sources. I propose that the sources which have been brought to the article be examined for suitability. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

McGill Daily

 * http://www.mcgilldaily.com/articles/20762

Who is Hannah Freeman, the author? She appears to post only occasionally at McGill Daily. How reliable can this work be; how expert the author? Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Roger Ebert

 * http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=ANSWERMAN&date=20091223

Ebert answers a direct question, posed by a reader, about whitewashing in The Last Airbender. Ebert says it is wrong, as there are many Asian actors who could have satisfied the expectations of the Nickelodeon TV show's loyal fans. He does not say that the film is a whitewash. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You read the answer wrong. This was *before* the film aired. This was December 2009. He *assumed* that they would find young Asian actors for the parts and *not* alienate the fans. So in another words he didn't think it *would* end up in white wash, but it did.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 22:10, 9 December 2010 (UTC)


 * http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080327/REVIEWS/873473371

No discussion of race, whitewashing, white people or Asian people, in this review of 21. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2010100129996

No discussion of race, whitewashing, white people or Asian people, in this review of Extraordinary Measures. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Chasing the Frog

 * http://www.chasingthefrog.com/reelfaces/21mitblackjack.php

No author = unreliable, unverifiable. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Asian Week

 * http://www.asianweek.com/2008/04/11/asian-celebrities-jeff-ma-linkin-park-supermodel-spitting-mad-naomi-campbell/
 * http://www.asianweek.com/2008/04/07/21-film-ben-mezrich-cards-las-vegas-not-the-first-film-to-%E2%80%98whitewash%E2%80%99-our-history/

My computer does not like these sites. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

MIT's The Tech

 * http://tech.mit.edu/V125/N43/43vegas.html

Brief mention of Asian characters switched to white ones by film producers. No mention of the word "whitewashing". Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * http://tech.mit.edu/V128/N12/blackjack.html

No discussion of race or whitewashing. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The Enterprise

 * http://www.enterprisenews.com/entertainment/x1565506635

"Page not found". Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

SF Gate

 * http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/27/DDQEVM8MQ.DTL

No discussion of whitewashing. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2009/01/28/apop012809.DTL

Jeff Yang's article looks okay. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

USA Today

 * http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2008-03-25-jeff-ma-21_N.htm

No discussion of whitewashing or race. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/life/20070731/d_cover31.art.htm
 * Archived at http://www.webcitation.org/5aAa435Vk

The last URL has comic artist and author Neil Gaiman mentioning how he refused to have one of his stories brought to film because the producers would have changed black characters to white ones. The Anansi Boys film proposal is not notable because it did not get any coverage elsewhere—just this assertion by Gaiman. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Media Action Network for Asian Americans

 * http://www.manaa.org/twentyonedvd.html

This unsigned press release can be used in a limited fashion, to describe the position taken by MANAA that they consider the film 21 to have been subject to whitewashing. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Orlando Sentinel

 * http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_movies_blog/2010/06/working-the-refs-protestors-pepper-critics-re-last-airbender.html

Unreliable blog entry posted by "otownrog". No good. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

io9.com

 * http://io9.com/5512941/who-sent-out-the-last-airbender-casting-call-asking-for-caucasian-actors-producer-responds

Author signed only "Meredith"; unverifiable. No discussion of whitewash, though she mentions racebending. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Hollywood Insider

 * http://hollywoodinsider.ew.com/2008/12/10/shyamalan-casts/

This article does not discuss whitewash. No relevance. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

MTV

 * http://moviesblog.mtv.com/2009/02/02/slumdog-star-dev-patel-joins-jackson-rathbone-for-the-last-airbender/

This blog entry by Elisabeth Rappe does not discuss whitewash. No relevance. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Latino Review

 * http://www.latinoreview.com/news/exclusive-a-look-at-the-live-action-akira-remake-akira-part-1-5678

Article is by "El Mayimbe", an unverifiable author. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Whitsunday Times

 * http://www.whitsundaytimes.com.au/story/2009/07/02/mini-series-on-our-billy-sing/

Anonymous, unreliable and unverifiable. Worse yet, it has nothing about whitewashing. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The Australian

 * http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/director-slammed-for-white-out-of-legendary-gallipoli-sniper/story-e6frg6nf-1225862770626

This looks reliable to me. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

BBC News

 * http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8670531.stm

This looks reliable to me. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Australia-China Youth Association

 * http://www.acya.org.au/?q=node/351

This story is signed by the Australia-China Youth Association, presumably one or more of its executives. It can be used in a limited way regarding Billy Sing in the TV miniseries about Gallipoli. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The Great Southern Star

 * http://www.thestar.com.au/Public/Template2/ThreadView.aspx?tid=31491

The article here was posted by somebody calling themselves SiteAdmin. Unverifiable. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The Telegraph

 * http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/7685247/Row-over-whiting-out-of-Chinese-hero-in-new-TV-show.html

Writer Bonnie Malkin of Sydney finds that the story of Billy Sing in a TV miniseries on Gallipoli was subject to "whiting out" by its director. This looks reliable. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Cold Fusion

 * http://www.coldfusionvideo.com/archives/guyver-the-1991/

Nathan Shumate, the reviewer, is not a reliable source. He has no notability. In discussing The Guyver, he does not use the term "whitewash" or even "white", so what he says cannot be extrapolated into this article. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Comics Bulletin

 * http://www.comicsbulletin.com/reviews/103238761263493.htm

Anonymous, unreliable, unverifiable. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Locus

 * http://locusmag.com/2005/Issues/01LeGuin.html

Of course, Ursula K. Le Guin is an expert observer. She notes that her characters were not all white, but were played by mostly white people. However, she also says that her characters are from a fantasy world in which there are no Asians or Africans or American Indians, etc. Her characters have different colors but they are not members of identifiable Earth races. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Slate.com

 * http://slate.com/id/2111107/
 * http://slate.com/id/2111107/%20%22A%20Whitewashed%20Earthsea

These two URLs result in the same article, a reworking of Le Guin's Locus article, intended for Slate. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Racialicious

 * http://www.racialicious.com/2008/09/10/samurai-girl-premieres/

This post is written by somebody calling himself "Angry Asian Man". Unreliable and unverifiable. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, if the source is deemed to be well reported upon, then the source is deemed reliable. In this case, he is put in Newspapers quite a bit... so he counts. Check before shooting it down.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 22:12, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

MTViggy.com

 * http://blog.mtviggy.com/2009/08/03/king-of-fighters-another-white-actor-plays-an-asian-guy/

This post is written by somebody calling himself "Angry Asian Man". Unreliable and unverifiable. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Drunk Duck

 * http://www.drunkduck.com/The_Weapon/index.php?p=280260

This URL is a copyright violation of an image, and has no textual content except for follow up posts. Unreliable, unverifiable, anonymous. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Channel APA

 * http://www.channelapa.com/2009/09/asian-american-character-weapon-played.html

Anonymous post, unreliable and unverifiable. Out it goes. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Los Angeles Times

 * http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/herocomplex/2010/05/racebending.html?cid=6a00d8341c630a53ef013481788b0d970c
 * http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jul/01/entertainment/la-et-air-bender-20100701

I couldn't access the second URL, but the first is by Chris Lee, and is a longer version of Lee's article which appeared in the L.A. Times Calendar section. Lee discusses the organizations that are accusing The Last Airbender of whitewashing and racebending. This source does not say the film is a whitewash, but it supports his observation that organizations exist which do call it that. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Time

 * http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,2000996,00.html

Author Richard Corliss does not mention the word whitewash in his bashing of the film The Last Airbender. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * He does, line 1: "Asian Americans, I hear your agitation. For the past few weeks, you and your allies in ethnic correctness have clogged the blogosphere with complaints about the casting in M. Night Shyamalan's live-action movie version of the Nickelodeon animated series Avatar: The Last Airbender."

Wikipedia does not require the "word" used in the article for it to count. I think you mistake that. Rather a demonstration of the definition. This is definitely a demonstration of the definition.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 22:16, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

This is amazing.

WHITEWASHING page exists!! Except had to search for it....wonder why?

Read the article. Looks like hairsplitting on the part about the whitewashing. The writer mentioned the pasty face white kids on the film. White guys censoring what is an endemic racist practice in American media. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.15.206.174 (talk) 11:05, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Reup the sources
Based on the above, I'd restore, Le Guin, probably discount Ebert (get quotes from *after* the date), count the Angry Asian Man (I know he's shown up in the Los Angeles Times. So he's considered reliable--blog or no. Like Huffington Post is considered reliable despite being a blog.) Double check your discounting. Avatar should be restored. A source is considered good if it's reported on. Double check that. Wikipedia rules do not state that one has to have _the word_ in the article for it to count in examples. It has to instead, show examples of the definition. For example, if you are debating the Bible, if the person calls it the Holy Book, then it doesn't count? If one talks about birds and mentions a hawk specifically, and doesn't mention that it's a bird, does it not count as an example. Please try again.

Actually submit Ebert: http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100630/REVIEWS/100639999
 * "Shyamalan has failed. His first inexplicable mistake was to change the races of the leading characters; on television Aang was clearly Asian, and so were Katara and Sokka, with perhaps Mongolian and Inuit genes. Here they're all whites. This casting makes no sense because (1) It's a distraction for fans of the hugely popular TV series, and (2) all three actors are pretty bad. I don't say they're untalented, I say they've been poorly served by Shyamalan and the script."

If you couple that with his belief that they *wouldn't* whitewash the film and corrected himself here, it's a clear example. You just have to expound it correctly with the dates. (See he retracted his belief here.) --Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 22:20, 9 December 2010 (UTC)