Talk:Wickliffe Draper

old comments
Hi Fastfission. The pioneer fund is sometimes fallaciously (but well-intentionedly) reduced to a funder of race and intelligence research. My change to the intro was trying to take into account that the fund funds a wide range of research.--Nectarflowed T 17:34, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
 * It looks to me like you replaced a line saying that they study race an intelligence to one about how they study the heredity of human differences, which is usually a euphemism for studying race and intelligence. --Fastfission 22:08, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree replacement with a euphemism would be a questionable change, but they do fund a variety of work that seems to warrant the broader description ("heredity and human differences" --the phrase they use). See, for example, the Minnesota Study of Twins Reared Apart, of which they were a partial funder. The fund's site gives a list of notable grantees and their work, broken down into the four categories that are funded: behavioral genetics, intelligence, social demography, and group differences (sex, social class, and race).--Nectarflowed T 03:55, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Intelligence Citations Bibliography for Articles Related to IQ Testing
You may find it helpful while reading or editing articles to look at a bibliography of  Intelligence Citations, posted for the use of all Wikipedians who have occasion to edit articles on human intelligence and related issues. I happen to have circulating access to a huge academic research library at a university with an active research program in those issues (and to another library that is one of the ten largest public library systems in the United States) and have been researching these issues since 1989. You are welcome to use these citations for your own research. You can help other Wikipedians by suggesting new sources through comments on that page. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 14:50, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

New material
In the past few days some IP accounts, perhaps all the same person, have added a lot of new material. However it is all unsourced and much of it is tangential to the subject. If sources aren't added soon I'm inclined to revert the additions.  Will Beback   talk    23:13, 20 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Do any of the editors here actually have the biographical sources about this person at hand? I have some Pioneer Fund material, but not any of the publications that are strictly about Draper's biography. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 23:18, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
 * There are only two significant biographical sources:
 * Tucker, William H. (2002), The Funding of Scientific Racism: Wickliffe Draper and the Pioneer Fund, University of Illinois Press, ISBN 0252027620
 * Kenny, Michael G. (2002), "Toward a Racial Abyss: Eugenics, Wickliffe Draper, and the Origins of The Pioneer Fund", Journal of History of the Behavioral Sciences 38: 259–283
 * The latter is available online and doesn't mention the added material. I don't have easy access to the Tucker book. Anyone else?   Will Beback    talk    02:03, 21 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Now I have one of those sources downloaded, with your help. The other is checked out to someone else at the library I rely on most, but I could recall the book if it becomes necessary to check a lot of facts in the article. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 02:11, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
 * This added material is what needs to be verified. Are you interested in tracking down the sources in the near future? if not I'll go ahead and revert the changes until we do have a chance to verify it.   Will Beback    talk    04:31, 23 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for asking. I have enough books taking over my office at the moment that I may wait for a while to recall the Draper biography. In other words, I'll trust your judgment here about what needs to be reverted. The statements didn't seem implausible to me, and Draper doesn't trigger the WP:BLP policy, so I just read them in my watchlist feed and moved on. But I won't object to anyone else reverting unsourced edits from I.P. editors here, as it is hard to know the provenance of the factual statements included in such edits. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 04:45, 23 August 2010 (UTC)


 * One book I have in my office already, Richard Lynn's book on the Pioneer Fund, includes a fair amount of information on Draper, so I have added it to the references here. I haven't changed any article text on this basis yet. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 15:33, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for adding that. I doubt it supports most of the recent additions though.   Will Beback    talk    15:54, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

It's gotten worse, so I'm reverting back to 22:57, August 4, 2010. Anyone is welcome to add material to the article, but it must be verifiable.  Will Beback   talk    01:39, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

As of last week I added referenced sources for all the new material about Thomas Ellis, Jesse Helms, Bonner Fellers, Foy Draper, Clarence Campbell, George Herbert Walker and Pres. George Bush. Why was this material removed? The info about Foy Draper in the 1936 Olympics was well documented. And both Hitler's and Draper's efforts at using the 1036 Olympics as their political showcase has been well documented before and recently. Even Robert Barrett who took part in the 1896 Olympics was a Eugenicist who started the Race Betterment Society with Dr. John Kellogg in 1906. They were Draper's mentors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DraperMan (talk • contribs) 20:02, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * This article is not about Foy Draper, Thomas Ellis, George Walker, or anyone besides Wycliffe Draper. Any source that doesn't mention him is not suitable. Neither are forums and Wikipedia mirrors like absoluteastronomy.com. We have an entire article on Eugenics for assertions that concern it rather than Draper.    Will Beback    talk    00:13, 3 September 2010 (UTC)


 * "Well documented" means correctly cited to a reliable source that is about the subject of the article. I've requested from a library the biography of Draper that it appears none of us have at hand, and I'll see what that says about his life. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 01:21, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
 * That'd great - thanks for checking it.   Will Beback    talk    01:36, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

The Tucker books are good sources for this article.
Getting to know the various articles in this category during the Arbitration Committee case alerted me to some authors and sources who don't usually appear in the  mainstream professional literature on psychology. And following up on some citations I found in those Wikipedia articles, in turn, helped me find some sources that explain the origin of much of the minority literature on this subject. I've had a chance now to obtain the book mentioned for a while in the article here, and the follow-up book by the same author is on its way to me from the friendly flagship university library.





The first listed book, of course, is directly related to this article, and is a wonderful source finder for facts about Wickliffe Draper and his life and writings, and for facts about the Pioneer Fund. I'm very impressed with how thoroughly Tucker cites his vast array of sources and how thoughtfully he describes the context of the different authors, writings, and historical movements he surveys. These books are helpful, reliable secondary sources for most of the articles in the related category here on Wikipedia. In general, all of the articles within the scope of the topic bans from the recent ArbCom case could be improved if more Wikipedians refer to these sources for further editing of the articles. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 16:05, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Found another source.
Blackmon, Douglas A. "Silent partner: How the South's fight to uphold segregation was funded up North." Wall Street Journal. 11 Jun. 1999.

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"Philanthropist"?
In reviewing this article it seems the only mention of Draper being a "philanthropist" is the quote from his own organization The Pioneer Fund that says: "'Draper insisted that his role as benefactor to many charitable causes (including military history, archaeology, conservation, and population problems) remain anonymous. He never married and when he died in 1972, he left a significant portion of his assets to the Pioneer Fund to continue its scientific philanthropy.'" Given that the quote is from an organization he founded, I consider this source POV and verging on self-publication. It seems to me that "philanthropist" is a subjective term, and that we would need more than one reference to one white supremacist organization to attest that the man "loves humankind" or is "very generous", for us to objectively call him a philanthropist in the lead paragraph.

Therefore, I've deleted the "philanthropist" descriptor. If you disagree, please explain here to ensure your re-addition isn't reverted out of hand. -kotra (talk) 09:24, 23 August 2020 (UTC)