Talk:Wielbark, Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship

History
Watching two people battle over how to describe the history, is it really necessary to go into detail here at all (after all, it will be basically the same story for every little village in this region)? Can't we just summarize it very briefly, and link to an article that describes the history of the region in full detail? Unless someone has specific sources that say something interesting about this specific village.--Kotniski (talk) 18:09, 30 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Indeed, I would prefer the version as of 29 June (prior to this edit by User:Radeksz). I also think it's superfluous to stress 12 years of Nazi Germany when we are talking about a long time of Prussian/German history. However, if Radeksz and Loosmark prefer to emphasise it, it would be WP:Undue not to mention the further background. HerkusMonte (talk) 19:47, 30 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh, really? So you want the info about the German population having to leave at the end of World War II before the "take-over by Communists" but everything else whitewashed. Me thinks no. And the "long time Prussian/German history" started when the Teutonic Order went on their crusades into the Slavic and Baltic territories. Dr. Loosmark  20:10, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

The problem I have with this and many other articles about towns in Poland is the line "Before 1945 the area was part of Germany" - for many places, while this is strictly true (Poznan was part of Germany before 1945!) it is misleading and uninformative. Many of these places switched back and forth between (various forms) of a German state and the Polish state. So that short line hides more than it tells.

However, having said that, I think that on this particular article I might have made a mistake, rightly corrected by Herkus. I thought that Wielbark had been part of Warmia and hence part of Poland but it might actually have been part of Ducal Prussia and hence only a fief of Poland rather than a part. Warmia's weirdly shaped and it juts right into Ducal Prussia so it was an easy mistake to make, geography wise.

I agree with Loosmark that if you gonna put stuff in it about "take over by Communists" or "violent expulsions" then it likewise makes sense to mention that it was part of Nazi Germany, as that is the state that ultimately bears the responsibility for the expulsions.radek (talk) 00:31, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is our job to judge responsibilities, either way. What a reader ought to be told is that this formerly German village became a Polish one after 1945, and then we give links to articles that contain specific information about the history of the region and the treatment of its populations. Giving too much general information in one article makes it seem as if this place was in some way exceptional (though sourced information that actually relates specifically to this place ought to be included, if we have any).--Kotniski (talk) 07:01, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It's good to see Radek perceives his error, however talking about whitewashing, he "forgot" to mention the expulsions at all. What puzzels me is Loosmark's revert of my edit after 1 (!) minute, back to Radek's "NPOV" (unfortunately wrong) version, obviously without any further review or basic knowledge. It reminds me of the bad old times I thought have passed. HerkusMonte (talk) 07:06, 1 July 2010 (UTC):: P.S.:I'm going to expand the history section soon


 * I reverted you because you inserted into the text that the Germans were expelled after the war without giving any background on why were they expelled. It is as if the expulsion came out of vacuum. Secondly it is also not precise and to use your language, "lacks basic knowledge" because not all German population was expulsed in fact many (if not most) fled the area in front of the advancing Red Army. So saying just that they were expelled doesn't tell the story. Finally I don't what do you mean by the bad old times, I was not a member of the EEML and I expect you withdraw your personal attack.  Dr. Loosmark  13:10, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

<-- I'm gonna ignore that piece of bad faith there as it is completely irrelevant. And I'll be happy to help with any kind of expansion.radek (talk) 16:23, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

As per comments above I expanded historical information
As per comments above I expanded historical information and made some minor edits. I also added one request for citation, I would like confirmation that this particular German population was moved from the town, in some cases they fled or left on their own from what I understand. I have nothing against reliable sources confirming their transfer to Germany confirming the fact, if they will be given. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:15, 5 July 2010 (UTC) PS:It still needs formating and some other minor changes. For example the list of notable residents needs an update. I will do it later. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:16, 5 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the sentence where Wielbark is first mentioned (in 1361) is missing a word.  Dr. Loosmark  22:38, 5 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Do you deny any populace remained in 1945 or their expulsion? HerkusMonte (talk) 09:43, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I have no opinion on the matter. In some cases Germans remained(both in Opole and Mazury there is a German minority today). If there is a reliable sources confirming the sentence about Wielbark than I have nothing against its presence in the article.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 16:18, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

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