Talk:Wilhelm Furtwängler

Er furtwänglere
What's "Er furtwänglere" mean? "He is Furtwangler-esque"? Help a uni-lingual brother out. -- orthogonal 05:27, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Inaccuracies
Before charging Furtwängler with Nazism (once again - how original), maybe we could start by writing an article that does not contain blatant mistakes. The sentence "Later he became music director of the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, the Salzburg Festival and the Bayreuth Festival, which was regarded as the greatest post a conductor could hold in Germany at the time" is inaccurate to say the least.

The syntax ("which was regarded as the greatest post...") suggests that there is or used to be a single directorship of all three (which wowuld also mean that Vienna and Salzburg are in Germany). What is more, and much worse, not only isn't there a music directorship of the three, but there isn't a music directorship of ANY of them.

The Vienna Philharmonic does not have a music director. It has NEVER had one. Furtwängler was in charge of three concert seasons in a row but never of the orchestra in itself. The Bayreuth Festival does not have a music director either. A few conductors have been described as "advisers" or "chief advisers," which is different.

The Salzburg Festival does not have a music director either.

I suppose crammming so much nonsense into one sentence is some sort of feat, even by Wikipedia standards.

Furtwängler was not a politician, ha was not a Nazi leader, neither was he the director of a concentration camp. He was a musician. Yet the section about Nazism is twice as long as the section about music. And although the section about Nazism is so long, it never states explicitly that Furtwängler was never a member of the Nazi Party. S.Camus 20:20, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, write more material about him (that doesn't involve the Nazis) and add that he was never a member (provided that all such material is referenced, NPOV, etc.). Grover cleveland 15:27, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

---

I have some questions for Furtwängler-experts, mostly based on that horrible film (which I must admit I have seen). In the film he is portrayed as claiming to have helped several jewish musicians escape. Is this correct? What about his hatred for Herbert von Karajan? And was he really forbidden to conduct after the war? 158.38.140.215 12:23, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I haven't seen the film but would love to. It's probably more correct to say there was a mutual professional rivilery between Furtwangler & von Karajan, as often occurs among artists and other assorted egoists. Its a bit much to use the inflamitory hatred in this matter. Furtwangler was able to use his position as Conductor of the Berlin Philharmonic to keep certain seats assigned to members of the orchestra who were Jewish, intervening on their behalf with the Gauleiter of Berlin Josef Goebbels, to help them avoid deportation to concentration camps based on their national or religious origin. He was able to successfully argue that the quality of the Orchestrea would suffer, and thus German art & culture, because the musicians were irreplaceable.

Also, it must be born in mind the importance of symphonic concerts and musical performances in a society with strict political press censorship; in the absense of open political discussion among the populace, especially during wartime, people's time was filled (even given the new medium of radio) with plenty of music. Stage concerts, and this is true going back into the 19th century, really substituted for open political discourse. Theatre critics and their reviews in newspapers in both Russia, Germany & the Austro-Hungarian Empire, took the place of Editorial writers as existed in the English speaking world during the same time.

The Nazi bosses functioned essentially, under their doctrine of Socialism, as the replacements of the old fuedal lords which had existed prior to 1918. Thus they patronized the arts as fuedal lords were also benefactors. Goebbells was Furtwangler's patron. Herman Goring was von Karajan's patron. In a limited way one might even say Knappertsbusch was patronized by Hitler.

Like anyone who was known to have even social contacts with top Nazi's, after the war came under investigation. Thus until the investigation was complete, to determine whether or not the individual was a Party member and if so what was involvement in political affairs, and/or crimes. Furtwangler was apolitical in the trueist sense of the term; his life was art, not politics.

Albert Speer's book, Inside the Third Reich in the section on the moment by moment discription of the final hours in Berlin with Soviet Armies closing in fast, the Berlin Philharmonic had just finished a concert and Furtwangler approached him backstage and asked him if the rumors are true, that the war lost. He hadn't a clue of either the political or military situation. That is probably about the closest thing anybody can evercome to citing Furtwangler's interest in, or discussion of, politics.

btw what is the film title? --nobs

--- I don't see how Speer's anecdote can be correct. Every source I have seen -- including this Wikipedia article -- say that Furtwangler was in Switzerland at this time. --Cdixon 21:30, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Nazism
Why all the emphasis on Nazism in this article? Is it relevent? After all the man was a conductor and musician, not a politican. Why not concentrate on his musical achievements which are to my mind far more important. Wallie 20:19, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I think that the article does focuis on his music, but this is an article on his life, important parts of which coincided with the Nazi regime. If there is more material about his music that you've got sources for then it'd be great if you could add it. Thanks, -Willmcw 23:21, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I think it's relevant, especially if you are talking about how his career in the United States was wiped out because of his decision to accept Nazi sponsorship. AlbertSM 18:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I once knew a woman who had a job (I think it was a humble clerical job) at the Berlin Philharmonic during the war years; her father was Jewish and committed suicide rather than endanger his family by staying alive. She had only praise for WF. I had to drag this out of her, because her painful memories of growing up in Berlin were still very raw forty years later; I wish I could have probed beyond her evasive generalizations. But she was very sharply attuned to both human character and to politics (she was very active in the civil rights struggles while living in NC), so her totally positive impression of her boss (who knows, maybe her lover too) counts for a lot. However, a careful reading of biographical material (I wish I could remember which library book I found this in) indicates that WF did gradually cave in and fully accept the Nazi regime - not enthusiastically, but he apparently not only appreciated and enjoyed the status they accorded him, but he is also supposed to have gone through his Nazi contacts to try to advance his own career at the expense of his rivals — Karajan in particular. Interestingly, while WF was more or less going along with the Nazi system, Karajan committed the cardinal sin of marrying a woman with a Jewish grandparent and K's career suffered somewhat as a result. Earlier, WF had indeed protested publicly against Nazi policies, and K is supposed to have been a hard-core Nazi, but several years into the Third Reich the story was apparently quite different. Incidentally, I love almost all of Furtwangler's recordings and despise almost all of Karajan's, so I'm adding this comment only for fairness' sake, since the conventional wisdom seems to be that Furtwangler was always pure, otherworldly and innocent, while Karajan was always a slimy evil careerist. Chelydra 13:08, 9 August 2007 (UTC) Chelydra 13:05, 9 August 2007

The section Third Reich controversy is peppered with requests for citations. I've got a couple of books - "The Twisted Muse" by Michael H Kater, and "Hitler and the Power of Aesthetics" by Frederic Spotts - with which I might go through the first half of that section at least in about a week, unless anyone has any strong objections or is proposing to do something similar with more reliable sources. Alfietucker (talk) 17:01, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

There is way too much weight given to Frederic Spotts' "Hitler and the Power of Aesthetics". This is a laughably bad book and just does not pass critical muster. There are way too few references in general. Also, there is too much emphasis on the whole Nazi situation and not enough about the art. I think we're all agreed that WF was not a Nazi, that he helped dozens of Jews escape Germany and that he stayed in Germany for every reason except to support the Nazi party. It is deserving of two or three sentences but does not deserve its own section. Gingermint (talk) 21:34, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

My congratulations to all concerned in writing and editing this section. I think it is exemplary. It marshals the facts, and lets the reader decide. Gwedi elwch (talk) 22:44, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Recommended Recordings
69.106.4.37 - thanks for adding more labels for recommended recordings. Can I ask why you deleted all mention of Classica d'Oro? I haven't heard the transfers myself, but some people at rec.music.classical.recordings have said they're OK, and they're currently available from arkivmusic.com


 * Classical d'Oro, Gramofono 2000, Iron Needle, and many other Italian labels have been accused for pirating the work of more reknown labels such as Music & Arts or Pearl. Clearly, one cannot endorse labels that are the target of such criticism, let alone acknowledge their "work."--Seaface 13:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe you personally don't like them, but I'm not sure why that should prevent other people from finding out about them. Grover cleveland 14:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * To start out with, I didn't erase that section. I merely answered the question on this page. Actually, Music & Arts has issued a statement regarding such records (http://www.musicandarts.com/shame.html). As you can see in the statement, familiar names such as Mark Obert-Thorn have asserted that Grammofono 2000 has pilfered work he had done with Pearl. I'm sure that the person who did edit such labels out was aware of this. --Seaface 13:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Why are we recommending recordings at all? We aren't critics. If there were some criteria we followed, such as "recordings listed by the subject as his favorites" or "Award winning recordings" then that'd be OK. But "Recordings admired by Wikipedia editors" is not a valid criteria. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 21:23, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree. The French Furtwangler Society has an excellent list of recommended recordings (http://www.furtwangler.net/bestchoice.html). I'm a little hesitant to make the edits myself since I'm fresh to the practice. --Seaface 13:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

• May I suggest to include Wagner's Tristan and Isolde, recorded 10-22 VI 1952 in London with the Philharmonia Orchestra, Ludwig Suthaus (Tristan), Kirsten Flagstad (Isolde) as this is widely regarded as the best recording of Tristan, and often considered one of the best Opera Recordings (EMI 7243 5 56254 2 7)? [Sander]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.236.240.49 (talk) 13:03, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Menuhin
I've removed this sentence from the article because it is POV and also needs significant factual backup.
 * His post war partnership with Jewish violinist Sir Yehudi Menuhin, speaks volumes both about Furtwängler's attitude and his acceptance by people sensitive about nazism.

Grover cleveland 12:59, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It doesn't explain the nature of Menuhin's "partnership" with Furtwangler -- was it anything more than a few joint performances/recordings?
 * The fact remains that many other people "sensitive about Naziism" refused to accept Furtwangler after the war.


 * First of all let me say, that seeing my "sensitive about Nazism" expression in quotation marks, I began to doubt whether it was correct use of language. I think it is not; a more unambiguous condemnation of nazism is needed. Let me apologise, but add that english is not my native language, so that was the best I could come up with at the moment.
 * I know about joint recordings and live performances. I don't know any more, but I think that even so it warrants being mentioned. In Menuhin's page it is mentioned.
 * About the other people who refused to cooperate with Furtwängler, although I don't know them, I am sure they could be numerous, but the fact remains, that open-mindedness varies greatly among people.
 * Let me add, that given all the Jewish people suffered from Nazism, it is wholly justified to have an aversion to anyone who might even remotely be affiliated with it. Still, in my opinion even if one member of the Jewish Music Community offered a hand of friendship to this man, it must signify something
 * Karajan, who was indeed a Nazi, did not have -to my limited knowledge- any significant(?) partnerships with jewish people.
 * In all, I think the expression I used should be changed, but Menuhin should be mentioned in some way in defense of Furtwängler. Atavi 13:14, 6 July 2006 (UTC).


 * After your justified reservations, I did a web search using google, and keywords "Furtwangler Menuhin", and the first result is this:Institute for Historical Review. From a quick reading it seems you're quite right when you say that there were many people -it seems almost all- who objected to Furtwangler. But, as far as Menuhin himself goes, he did indeed (or at least his father did) defend Furtwangler.

" --Furtwängler preferred to swear fealty to Hitler. He accepted at Hitler's hands his reappointment as director of the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra. He was unfailing in his service to Goebbels' ministry of culture and propaganda ... The token saving of a few Jewish lives does not excuse Mr. Furtwängler from official, active participation in a regime which murdered six million Jews and millions of non-Jews. Furtwängler is a symbol of all those hateful things for the defeat of which the youth of our city and nation paid an ineffable price.

Among prominent Jews in classical music, only the famous violinist Yehudi Menuhin defended the German artist. After Furtwängler was finally obliged to withdrew his name from consideration for the Chicago post, a disillusioned Moshe Menuhin, Yehudi's father, scathingly denounced his co-religionists. Furtwängler, he declared,

--was a victim of envious and jealous rivals who had to resort to publicity, to smear, to calumny, in order to keep him out of America so it could remain their private bailiwick. He was the victim of the small fry and puny souls among concert artists, who, in order to get a bit of national publicity, joined the bandwagon of professional idealists, the professional Jews and hired hands who irresponsibly assaulted an innocent and humane and broad-minded man ...

" I don't know how reliable this source is, but all the same: CD Review " IT WAS NOT until the late 1940s that Menuhin, who had heard of Furtwängler's enormous reputation, and was full of admiration for him through recordings of various Beethoven and Brahms performances, decided to investigate for himself the damaging insinuations. He found no evidence of Furtwängler being a Nazi, and decided to collaborate with him. Because of Menuhin's own reputation as a humanist, "

page about Furwangler

" But support came from the unlikeliest of places. A Jewish-German journalist named Curt Riess initially attacked Furtwängler as a Nazi collaborator, but after seeing documentation of Furtwängler's acts of resistance during the war, Riess came around enough to write a book-length defense of Furtwängler's music and politics. At the same time, the Jewish-American violinist Yehudi Menuhin made a similarly thorough examination of the evidence about Furtwängler. Menuhin had refused to come to Austria to perform with Furtwängler in 1933, but he emerged in 1946 as one of Furtwängler's staunchest supporters, making a number of American enemies in the process. "

In light of all this, I am inclined to work on a new text about Menuhin's support for Furtwangler. Atavi 13:51, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Go for it: mentioning Menuhin's support as an example of a prominent Jew who accepted Furtwangler is an excellent idea.  Just be sure to also point out that many others continued to oppose him. Grover cleveland 02:21, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * OK. I'm glad we could find some common ground. Atavi 10:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Furtwängler wiping hands after shaking "Hitler's"
The claim is made in the text that Furtwängler wiped his hand after shaking Hitler's hands. This misconception probably comes from the final clip in the movie Taking Sides by Istvan Szabo. It can be seen on youtube.com. However, this, to me, does not look like Adolf Hitler. The man is much too lean and youthful. Looks more like Joseph Goebbels to me. Sunwutzu 08:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC).

The movie director Istvan Szabo, in a recent appearance at the Goethe Institute in Washington DC, indeed confirmed that it was Goebbels. Nandt1 (talk) 22:58, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

About change from GA-B class
WP:Good articles must meet certain quality standards and have passed through the Good Article nomination process. Then they may be listed as Good articles. I see no GA nomination or assessment here.--DO11.10 23:47, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

No doubt about it.It is clearly Goebbels.

Fair use rationale for Image:FurtwanglerBeethoven.jpg
Image:FurtwanglerBeethoven.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 19:27, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Furtwangler Bruckner 5 intro.ogg
Image:Furtwangler Bruckner 5 intro.ogg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 20:58, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Composers project review
I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is B-class, but could use some attention. Read my detailed review on the comments page. Feel free to leave questions or comments about the review here or on my talk page.  Magic ♪piano 21:46, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Conducting style section
The writer of this section uses links to youtube videos to source personal observations about the conducting.

Also, omits the important stuff--how the music SOUNDS! Furtwangler was known for very slow, gradual crecendos, appropriate for mature wagner, and for extreme drama. He was not a crisp gritty type like Keilberth or Bohm. But these too are personal observations. Anyway I think the whole section on conducting style should be axed or better-sourced. SingingZombie (talk) 02:39, 31 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, that whole paragraph consisted of original opinions, and for references the author linked to online videos of F's conducting! Totally inappropriate for wiki.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.243.185 (talk) 02:08, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Odd that - though I make no claims for it - Bertha Geissmar's book "The Baton and the Jackboot" isn't listed in the bibliography. She was Furtwangler's secretary at the BPO, and later, in exile, Beecham's. Delahays (talk) 10:51, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Biography
The biography mentions the subject as being regarded under a shadow, but says nothing else about this. This ought to be clarified. 24.17.218.38 (talk) 22:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC)ATBS

Too many quotations?
I am not very happy with the notice about too many quotations. Some of these long quotations are from important witnesses to the truth of whatever issue they are writing about. This article covers topics of prime importance (such as Furtwängler's relations with Nazis and with Jews). Surely it is wrong for some anonymous and humble Wikipedia editor to paraphrase the words of: Furtwangler himself, Geissmar (who worked with him for 20 years), Friedelind Wagner, Goebbels, Hugo Strelitzer, Yehudi Menuhin, Neville Cardus and Henry Lewis? What these distinguished people actually wrote should be cornerstones of the article. They should not be filtered by some editor. No judge would allow that in court. No theatre director would paraphrase Shakespeare in a performance for grownups. (Cutting is another matter but it requires a lot of skill and risks POV.) The Wikipedia reader deserves the same direct level of information on important topics as the jury and the theatre-goer.

In the "Notable Recordings" section I think the issue is less clearcut because a critic's opinion of an individual recording is much less important than the moral worth and the artistic quality of Furtwangler himself. So I don't know.

Any other views?

Budhen (talk) 15:23, 24 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree with you. Anyway I want to add more text in the future to the end of the biography and to the section "career". The best solution would be to move all the quotations in the "Notable Recordings" section to footnotes! This is what I did for the article on Furtwängler in French. I am currently very busy with my job, therefore I do not have much time. If you want to start...  Cheers--Gatti fabien1 (talk) 05:10, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

The trouble with writing about music is that there is no agreed way of doing it. If you regard it as a social activity it will acquire other social characteristics, which will include issues of "moral worth and artistic quality" - not to mention others. If you regard it as anything else, you are going to get it wrong. Wittgenstein - who had musical kin - seems appropriate here - "Whereof one cannot speak....." 94.193.114.164 (talk) 14:50, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 10:34, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Lede needs to be fleshed out on his composing career
Although the general public probably does not agree, he considered himself a composer who conducted, rather than the reverse. Critical opinion on his output is fairly polarized - the lede needs to mention his composing endeavors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.2.50 (talk) 03:04, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Bravo
Writing as a lifelong classical music listener and onetime DJ, I find this article - about such a difficult and intriguing subject - unusually articulate and thought-provoking. If anything about it is 'not encyclopedic' then so much the worse for that tradition. The quotes I see today are perfectly complementary and I wouldn't remove a word. The pains taken to depict this man's situation are much appreciated. Say what you will about his conducting style (this is not the place), this is one of WP's best articles concerning the role and significance of classical music today, and of its diverse interpreters. Twang (talk) 23:45, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

I strongly agree with the last comment by Twang. I think this is an extraordinarily well researched and well written article.Gwedi elwch (talk) 20:25, 9 June 2019 (UTC)