Talk:Will Eisner/Archive 1

Posting placed at User talk:Chowbok
Wikipedia policy requires that your edits be cited and verifiable. You are making the same major, major edit at Will Eisner without doing either. You are using sock puppets to make this same change under different identities. And you are guility of highly uncivil behavior with your comments and your inappropriate edit summaries. Taken together, all your actions are well within the realm of having you User:Mtn and the IP at User talk:68.198.52.124 blocked.

I am asking you to please desist or I will be forced to seek this. This is gross misconduct that Wikipedia simply doesn't allow. Thank you. -- Tenebrae 17:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * This fellow has no evidence whatever that I'm using sock puppets, and anyone can look through my history to see that this is the first time anyone has ever suggested such a thing. I obviously touched a nerve with this guy. Wikipedia editors who respond to every single thing with an accusation of breaking Wikipedia policies are annoying. Please ignore. &mdash;Chowbok 18:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Batman/Chowbok
Hi,

Chowbok is not adding the "co-" before "creator" in regards to Batman at the Will Eisner entry; I am. I am a longtime reader of Wikipedia and only very rarely edit; this is the first time I've made anything other than a grammatical change and so I've never cited. I admit I can't figure out how to cite but would like to. I'm currently doing a project on Batman and have numerous sources that give Bill Finger equal (and in some cases, more) credit in the creation of Batman as we know him today.

Would you mind telling me how to cite and I will do so promptly?

Thank you, Mtn 20:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)MTN


 * Please see the Wikipedia article Bob Kane, and the formal credit on everything Batman-related published by DC Comics. -- Tenebrae 20:03, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Re: that you "only very rarely edit": You have never edited before today, and have made only one edit: (14:45, 7 June 2006 Will Eisner).


 * I have presented by evidence for a sock puppet at the appropriate venue. -- Tenebrae 20:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Citations for Bill Finger as co-creator of Batman
I am telling the truth. I am not a dummy identity of anyone else. If you don't believe me, please e-mail me; I've just added my e-mail address to my file, whereas I see that you have not or else I would've done that first. I have made probably two or three other grammatical changes but only registered today, upon your prompting, so those don't show up.

Referring me to the Bob Kane entry on Wikipedia is not confirmation. As I'm sure you know, the fact that DC Comics credits only Bob Kane is not fact, it is not truth; it is simply the result of a legal contract. Among the many primary sources that give Bill Finger equal credit:

Batman and Me, An Autobiography by Bob Kane with Tom Andrae, Eclipse Books, 1989, pages 41-44, is an extensive description by Bob Kane himself of the creation of Batman. Reading this passage alone leaves no doubt that Bill Finger conceived a substantial amount of the characteristics of Batman that we still know today; however, I've cited even more below. Page 41: "At the time, I only had a small domino mask, like the one Robin later wore, on Batman's face. Bill said, 'Why not make him look more like a bat and put a hood on him, and take the eyeballs out and just put slits for eyes to make him look more mysterious?' At this point, the Bat-Man wore a red union suit; the wings, trunks, and mask were black. ... Bill said that the costume was too bright: "Color it dark gray to make it look more ominous." The cape looked like two stiff bat wings attached to the arms. As Bill and I talked, we realized that these wings would get cumbersome when Bat-Man was in action, and changed them into a cape, scalloped to look like bat wings when he was fighting..."; Page 43: "I made Batman a superhero-vigilante when I first created him. Bill turned him into a scientific detective."; Page 44: "Much of the Batman mythos evolved out of our collaboration. Bruce Wayne, for example, was a co-creation. ... The alliteration of the names--Bruce Wayne, Bob Kane--was probably one reason Bill came up with the name."; Page 44, quotation from Bill Finger: "'Originally, I was going to call Gotham City 'Civic City.' Then I tried Capital City, then Coast City. Then, I flipped through the phone book and spotted the name Gotham Jewelers and said, 'That's it,' Gotham City.'"; Page 44: "Now that my long-time friend and collaborator is gone, I must admit that Bill never received the fame and recognition that he deserved. ... Only later, in the seventies, after he was no longer writing the strip and some of his stories were reprinted, did he receive credit. ... I often tell my wife, if I could back fifteen years, before he died, I would like to say, 'I'll put your name on it now. You deserve it.'"

A similar element-by-element breakdown of Batman's creation appears in the DC Comics-copyrighted (i.e. authorized) Batman: The Complete History, by Les Daniels, Chronicle Books, 1999, pages 21-31. It is too long to retype here but contains direct quotations from Finger.

Men of Tomorrow, by Gerard Jones, Basic Books, 2004, 149-155. Page 150: "That night or the next day he got together with his friend Bill Finger and showed him what may have been the last thing created by Bob Kane alone: a red-garbed crime fighter with mechanical wings called 'Bird-Man.' Finger didn't think it was good for a detective comic."; Page 306: "For nearly thirty years he'd been writing comics for a page rate, almost always anonymously, and remaining strangely silent about his COCREATION [emphasis mine] of Batman. ... Much of what made the TV BATMAN successful...came from Finger."; Page 307: "Only after his death would Kane begin to acknowledge what his friend had given him."

The Comics Journal #271, October 2005, page 81, "Look Out, Batman! It's the Jerry Robinson Interview!", by Gary Groth: "Robinson: ...He died broke, never got credit as the co-creator of Batman.; Groth: That's very much what Alvin Schwartz said, possibly even more forcefully. In fact, he actually ascribes much more authorship to Finger than he does to Kane." [As I'm sure you also know, Robinson and Schwartz were contemporaries and co-workers of Kane and Finger. Jerry Robinson mentions this in numerous interviews; I've got all the citations. I've even interviewed both men directly, Schwartz just last night, to hear the same thing.]

The Comics Journal #271, October 2005, page 36, "Bill Finger Award/Jack Kirby Tribute," by Ian Brill: "Finger received no co-creation credit, as Kane’s father locked DC into a contract that would credit Kane as the sole creator of Batman. [Mark] Evanier [longtime comics writer and authority, see www.povonline.com] said that DC’s attitude is that they would like to change things, but can’t because of the agreement with the Kane estate."

Alter Ego--The Comic Book Artist Collection, TwoMorrows Publishing, 2001; several articles throughout. "Yet Another Year of the Bat," by Roy Thomas, page 122: "By almost any sane standard, Bill WAS the Dark Knight's co-creator."; "Interview with Fred Finger [Bill Finger's son]," conducted by Dwight Jon Zimmerman, page 141: "He [Bill] developed the costume, he developed the history of Batman--why he turned to fighting crime; the death of Bruce Wayne's parents; how could somebody do this and not have to work--so they had to make him into a very wealthy man; all of the gimmicks that you think about with Batman--the Batarang, the Batcave, the Batmobile, the Bat Signal--all this stuff came out of my father's little fertile imagination."

Wizard Magazine #135, 12/02, "Unmasking Batman," by Jim McLauchlin, page 85:

"Crack open the cover to any Batman comic--Batman, Detective Comics, World’s Finest, whatever--and you’ll find one commonality: The phrase “Batman created by Bob Kane.”

But many insiders will tell you that this simple statement of seeming fact is every bit as fictional as the Bat-tale it introduces. At the very least, they’ll tell you the statement is incomplete. Oh, they’ll admit, sometimes grudgingly, that Kane should be there. But they’ll also tell you that you wouldn’t be reading the book today--hell, you probably even wouldn’t have heard of Batman--were it not for the contributions of another man. Bill Finger.

Haven’t heard of him? You’re not alone. Finger’s cautionary tale is not well known, but it’s every bit as compelling as that of Batman himself.

“We’re all attracted to tragedy, and he’s a tragic figure,” says current Detective Comics writer Ed Brubaker. “He did so much so well for so long! He was the most inventive guy on the book, worked on it for decades, and in the end, it got him nothing.”

Just what did Finger do? At the very least, he wrote Batman tales for over 20 years, introducing the character in Detective Comics #27, penning the first Robin story in Detective #38, and introducing the Joker, Penguin, Catwoman, Bat-Mite, and the very Batcave itself. At the most, he may have ensured that Batman existed at all."

That should be enough. If you are kind enough to direct me on how to post citations to the article, I will do so. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.198.52.124 (talk • contribs) 15:34, June 7, 2006 (UTC)


 * Wait, I'm confused. Are you also User:Mtn? &mdash;Chowbok 21:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot to identify myself
Yes, I was the one who just posted that long list of citations. Frankly, I'm now exhausted.

Mtn 21:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC)MTN


 * The issue of Batman's creation is dealt with on Wikipedia appropriately at Bob Kane, which states that some believe Bill Finger should be unofficially acknowledged as co-creator. Kane, however, is officially acknowledged, and this controversay is off-topic at Will Eisner. Anyone interested in Kane or Batman can click on the wikilinks there. -- Tenebrae 21:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * WTF? You reverted his (and my) change, saying it needed a citation... so he gives you eight gazillion, and you say it's in the wrong place. Now I'm really irritated. I'm reverting it back, make all the false accusations you want... &mdash;Chowbok 21:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Officially, unofficially, Kane, Eisner
Finger already IS unofficially acknowledged, as I've extensively covered. Hence, co-creator. The fact that many want him to be officially acknowledged is another (worthy) discussion.

And since you originated this debate over "co" on the Eisner page, it still belongs here, even though I'm sure there are many other entries that mention Kane as creator, not co-creator. The Batman page is not involved--that does mention Finger. If someone reads only the Eisner page and never bothers with Kane, I still want him to know Kane is co-creator.

Mtn 00:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)MTN

Compromise solution
I've made a compromise solution at Will Eisner that ID's Kane while eliminating the entire issue of credit, since this is an article about Eisner and not Kane. Please see it and let me know if you have any objections. -- Tenebrae 00:53, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Disney?
Did Will Eisner have any connection to Disney? The way he wrote his name looks very similar to the Walt Disney logo. —Frungi 01:11, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

The only connection is that both men routinely drew with brushes, so they both have a brush-like style to their signatures, and both men have an isne in the middle of their names, so the letters are the same. Tverbeek 11:02, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that. For the longest time, for the signature reason and for the name of Disney's former CEO, I presumed that Will Eisner must have had strong ties to Disney, and that Michael Eisner was his son, or something. When I searched the page (that is, ctrl+f) for "michael" and got nothing, I was confused. What, they left out his son?


 * I really think we should have something in the article denoting "no relation" to Michael Eisner or Disney... I thought for years that the strongest of connections must be present, it's shocking to find out they are not. ...And kind of relaxing, that is, to know that Eisner's legacy is not in the hands of Michael. Ahhhhh. Cherry Cotton 06:58, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Eisner-Iger Vs. Eisner-Iger

Another link between Eisner and Disney: The CEO (Eisner) and Chairman (Iger) of the Disney company today have the same names than the the late 30's Eisner-Iger shop founders. The funny thing is that Mr. Iger of Disney is actually a related nefew of Jerry Iger of the Eisner shop.


 * Whoever posted this anonymously, is there a citation other can look up about this alleged uncle-nephew relationship? Thanks. — Tenebrae 04:53, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Dark Horse's description of Will Eisner: A Spirited Life says, "This book features never-before published stories about Eisner's first partner, Jerry Iger, related by his great-nephew, Walt Disney Studio CEO Robert Iger." But Michael Eisner (no relation) was shown to the door last year, so there's no current Eisner-Iger at Disney. Tverbeek 16:02, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Cool. I'll add the Iger item, with citation, to Jerry Iger. Thanks! — Tenebrae 20:16, 22 January 2006 (UTC) Or actually not so much — it's already there! :-)  Tenebrae 20:20, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Masters of American Comics
This is a travelling show. It's not over yet and also his works were also available in the Newark Museum simultaneously since this show seems to be shown in two parts at any given time. I'd edit it but, I'd rather someone a bit more experienced consider this. Currently the Masters of American Comics show is on the west coast at MOCA (not to be confused with MOCCA in NYC) and Hammer Museum. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.187.77.211 (talk) 20:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

Will Eisner's John Law, Mr Mystlic, Lady Luck
All three are not in the article ?--Brown Shoes22 03:02, 11 November 2007 (UTC)


 * They're in there. It's a long article, so try the "find" command. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:40, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The Plot
Should this be in graphic Novels, or academic work, or even a section for political, or social, activism? It's significantly different than his fictional narratives, and far more scholarly. It's also a bit of activism. ThuranX (talk) 01:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd say keep it in the section "Graphic novels". It's not an academic work in the sense of those other things, or a scholarly journal or anything like that. Lots of fiction work across all media have a sociopolitical or historical component. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:42, 19 November 2007 (UTC)


 * But that's just it, it's not fictional at all. ThuranX (talk) 21:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The little flag in the infobox
Do people have a preference or thoughts on how the flag in the infobox should be justified, or do we have any guidance which speaks on this issue? Hiding Talk 17:05, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Per Manual of Style (flags) no flag at all would be the best solution. Garion96 (talk) 17:11, 18 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I've also come to the opinion that we're better off without using any flag icons. M URGH   disc.  19:30, 18 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Some time has passed and per all those who came to talk, the opinions are either "6 of 1 and half-a-dozen of the other", or remove them, certainly in controversy cases, so I'll simply snip it. M URGH   disc.  21:13, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Birth date?
Please verify his birth date. I believe the correct date is March 6. Epicidiot 04:39, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You're correct. Whoever put it in may have typo'd. -Tenebrae 15:21, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

And you know what else is wrong? His nationality. United States is not a nationality. Unless the person who wrote that is acknowledging a seperate American ethnicity.

-anonymous annoyed poster —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.205.33.223 (talk) 07:04, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Disambiguation hatnote
Notwithstanding the above discussion, I think that the current hatnotes are unnecessary:


 * For Will Eisner:


 * For Michael Eisner:

No one would come to an article titled Will Eisner expecting it to be about Michael Eisner or vice versa: they have different names. Moreover, there is no need to have a link to a list of "other people named Eisner" as this is arbitrary and would only be necessary if there was a redirect from Eisner, which there isn't.

If there is any confusion, I suggest that the hatnotes be replaced with:


 * For Will Eisner:


 * For Michael Eisner:

—sroc (talk) 00:05, 1 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I came to the same conclusion separately and already removed it - WP:NAMB. The talk page mentions a possible reason for conclusion, but it's a flimsy confusion that is much better explained in the article itself, it's inappropriate for a hatnote. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 10:57, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Google logo March 6, 2011 webcitation in honor of Eisner's 94th birthday.
Here is a webcitation link for the Google logo for March 6, 2011 if anyone is interested.

http://www.webcitation.org/5wzMbHDkL

Mtminchi08 (talk) 07:51, 8 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Wow! I didn't know those pages could be archived. Good thinking! I'll add it. --Tenebrae (talk) 15:46, 8 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I didn't know either. Thought it was worth trying.  It's a nice little piece of comics history.

Mtminchi08 (talk) 01:57, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Eisner
Is the name pronounced:, or , or , or other? It would be quite helpful if the right template is added by someone knowledgeable. Regards, --Maymay (talk) 07:27, 9 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Not sure of the phonetic representation above, but it's "IZE-ner," if that's any help.--Tenebrae (talk) 18:03, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much :)--Maymay (talk) 09:24, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

NB
Hi,

Please note that I left out Spirit Archives Vols. 5–10 from the book list on purpose, as Eisner's work does not appear in them. &mdash;Chowbok 17:06, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

some personal notes from people who have been inspired by this great old man of comics.
Will Eisner shined his light in Sarasota, FL shortly before his death. Many people have seen him in person at one of the numberless appearances he made in every part of the country during his long and fruitful career as both a practitioner and evangelist of the noble art of telling stories with pictures and words. These talks were staged in colleges or comic book stores, or convention halls, and many of you will have similiar remembrances of his well oiled presentation, which he pulled off affably and often even into the last year of his life. He came off as a tidy old gentleman who had led a wonderful life, filled with adventures of the middle class kind, a bit of luck, a respectable work ethic, with a few bawdy jokes thrown in for versisimilitude, and time leftover to let you know that as much as he loved drawing pictures, it was his wife that made him really happy. It's sure that this was an easy man to love, and you admired him like you admire an Uncle who had made it as an Astronaut, and visited the moon. I went to see Will Eisner because I had thought his comics were cool, but left with the idea that it was really the man who was cool, and that he just wanted to let you in on his secret, like these talks were the best way he knew to give out this message that couldn't be drawn into a picture or written in a word balloon. I also went there with my comic book people, the worst and most desperate kind of geeks, and we left there feeling like we KNEW something we didn't know before. Less than a year later, those same guys all toasted Will Eisner's memory the day he died, out at what passed for a company dinner for Blue King Studios, a slapsticky multi-course four star French extravaganza where no business was discussed. Put five guys at a table who's lives and livelihoods are comics, who are eating comic book food and drinking comic book wine; first off, you have five happy guys, five lucky guys, but you also have five guys who owe a lot to Will Eisner, and it was nice to be able to be together on the day he died, and celebrate knowing that we were walking in footsteps that led somwhere wonderful.

Neil Hendrick

As heartfelt and touching as this commentary is, Wikipedia is not an appropriate place to add this kind of personal tribute or reminiscences. This page is for discussing the content of the encyclopedia article to which it's attached; not a bulletin board for chatting about the subject. Tverbeek 03:59, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


 * And where in Wikipedia does it say that his recollections don't belong on the Talk page. Inquiring minds want to know.


 * It says so here. Please register, read the rules, and sign your posts. — Tenebrae 22:42, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * If Wikipedia were a printed encyclopedia, the Talk pages would be the notes and emails between staffers. And there would be wide latitude as to what would be appropriate in such communications. Perhaps one staffer's C&C would stimulate another staffer to write valuable content for the published version. I did register, but couldn't figure out the login and signing procedures. In the meantime, you can find me here: www.nostradamus.net


 * Be that as it may -- and please sign your posts, as per Wiki etiquette -- that would be an issue to present as a proposal to the admins. In the meantime, please abide by Wikipedia policy. — Tenebrae 10:38, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Now you know why a lot of people don't write for wikipedia any more. No wrecker could ever do worse than it's clueless moderators do with their foolish delusions of grandeur.(178.236.117.122 (talk) 21:03, 13 November 2013 (UTC))


 * We're not moderators, and you misspelled "Its." And if following Wikipedia policies and guidelines is too onerous, we'd be sorry to lose any knowledgeable and productive editors. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:29, 13 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Correcting his spelling makes you look like a child good sir! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.240.173.49 (talk) 17:37, 10 February 2015 (UTC)


 * And your lack of a comma before your twee phrase "good sir!" is, well, interesting in itself.--Tenebrae (talk) 01:21, 12 February 2015 (UTC)