Talk:Willamette University/Archive 1

Sally Struthers
I'm a Willamette alum but I'm fairly certain Sally Struthers isn't. I never heard anything about it when I went there. I checked some online bio places for her, but they all say she left Portland when she was 18 to go pursue her showbiz career. Can anybody substantiate that she went here? Also, who is the rhetoric major? The debate part is relevant because WU is known for that, but if you list rhetoric, you should list all Willamette majors. Jbenson964 19:15, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


 * She did not. See here & here among others. Magus 10:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm writing regarding the deletion of Corona Tuesdays and BWW as traditions. I did not write them myself, but I noticed that the IP of the person that deleted the text was an on-campus one and was hoping the editer would identify themself. As for me, this is David Lindenbach from Doney 209. (preceding unsigned comment by 20:45, 15 October 2005)

i too am writing in regard to the deletion (for the thrid time) os Corona Tuesdays and BWW. give us a good reason for why this is being deleted. maybe i just don't understand or maybe who ever is deleting these contrabutions is just a totalitarian ass hole. "nonsense" my aass. who here is to say that Corona Tuesdays and BWW aren't willamette traditions? no one. so why the continual deletions? (preceding unsigned comment by 14:01, 19 October 2005)


 * My apologies for reverting the edits once again, before realizing that there were comments here on the talk page. However, I still think the revert was justified. To say that university students get together to drink, regardless of what names have been applied to the occasion, doesn't seem like notable or encyclopaedic information. I have seen several edits to other school/university articles in the past, usually using a similar tone, with no real information and that are only intended as "in-jokes" to other school/university attendees that might read the article. I had assumed the same with your edits, but clearly you care enough about the article to discuss it here. If you still think that this information is worth including, even after reading what Wikipedia is not and the necessity of information being  important, then if you re-add your content perhaps you should also include why this information is useful. As it is, especially since I don't attend Willamette, I don't see that it is. Cheers. --Peruvianllama 01:01, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

delete unimportant info
I agree with Peruvianllama that a drinking get together is not worthy of mention in an encyclopedia. I also felt that the section on Mill Stream had too much of the same sort of minor information (lawn chairs stewn about...), though I didn't change it.

Chris 01:42, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I deleted it after all. Chris 01:53, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Calling Bum Wine Wednesday a "drinking get together" illustrates exactly how misunderstood Bum Wine Wednesday is. BWW isn't a party, it's more like a Willamette-specific holiday. Think like Earth Day, or Arbor Day, but instead of celebrating trees or the earth, we celebrate the undying spirit of the bum.

To provide a little context, Salem, OR, the town Willamette calls home, is an absolute slum. There are bums everywhere, especially in the neighborhood surrounding Willamette's campus. In fact, bums are arrested for trespassing on campus nearly every week.

"Salem is an absolute slum." What the hell kind of crack are you smoking? Salem is nowhere near as bad as other places I've been or even lived. Of course the area immediately surrounding campus doesn't have million dollar mansions lining the streets, but that's not exactly unusual for an area right around a city's core. There are plenty of nice parts of Salem, and there are things to do if you ever take the time to leave the bubble. Seriously, only a few parts of Salem qualify as a "slum" and even then it's debatable. As for the bums, I very rarely see any outside of downtown. Portland has far more and yet everyone on campus is in love with that place.

The point is that BWW is not a silly drinking game, but an homage, a weekly nod of recognition that if not for our upper-middle class upbringings and expensive private education, we'd probably be getting arrested for tresspassing ourselves.

Surely such a tradition, a micro-political action, is worthy of mention in the people's encyclopedia, if not in the Willamette article, then perhaps in its own?

N. Robinson--Kaneko 338--Willamette University —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.104.72.33 (talk • contribs)


 * If this "tradition" must have a place in the article, can you at least provide information for when it started, and who it involves? In my four years at Willamette (1999-2003) I never heard of it, so I'm wondering if it's a new thing, or if it is primarily a frat thing, or what. The way the article is written, it sounds like an ancient ongoing tradition that everyone takes part in. And that's simply not the case. Someone just needs to back up this information with some facts, so it stops sounding like folklore and starts sounding more encyclopedic. Romarin 03:46, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * And I've been around the Willamette campus for a good part of the last 20 years (I live in the "absolute slum" just a few blocks off campus), and I've never heard of it either. Now, Glee &mdash; there's a tradition. Sadly, an ex-tradition now.... Twisted86 09:22, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Acreage
The article claims it's 69 acres while the website claims 61. Which is right? --Phoenix Hacker 04:09, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Could you just put "roughly 65 acres?" - The Good Doctor (Dr. Zaret) 04:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Infobox
I placed an infobox on the article but there is some information missing. I also had no luck finding a good image. Anyone feel like filling in the missing information? --Phoenix Hacker 02:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Rhetoric section
What is noteworthy about this section? Should eevery department on campus be listed??? Twisted86 09:25, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree, this is a problem. Either no departments should be mentioned, or they all should be. I'm sure that this is just a case of someone belonging to that department wanting to prance around a bit. On the other hand, though, I think the rhetoric dept is fairly well-known, so maybe a good idea would be to choose a few of the more well-known departments (like music, I think... and I'm not sure what else) and do a blurb on each. What about that? rom a rin [talk ] 14:50, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reply. That might work. I guess I kind of muddled the issue. The issue really isn't one of fairness as I implied. What should be the issue is notability, which is inherently unfair. If all the departments in the CLA are truly notable, then away we go! If only some departments are notable, that's okay, too. Twisted86 04:39, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Danny Glover
Danny Glover is a graduate of San Francisco State University — not Willamette (unless he went to law or business school at WU). Twisted86 21:57, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

To get to GA class
I hoping to work towards GA if not FA class if anyone else is interested. I've worked Waller Hall and Willamette University College of Law up to GA and created many WU related articles as well as the template as sort of the groundwork for improving the main article. My thoughts on what more needs to be done:
 * New article on the CLA.
 * New article to cover athletics:
 * Intro: what sports the school participates in, the level, the facilities, any national champs.
 * Sections for each sport where history of each program and any championships are covered
 * Section on athletic facilities
 * List of any WU athletes/coaches who made it big (basically if they have a Wiki article)
 * New article to cover the campus: Need articles on Art Building, Luasanne Hall, and probably Smullin.

Once this groundwork is done, the main WU article can be re-formatted with sections on these (using the see main template) as well as: activities, non-academic programs, greek life, on campus housing, traditions, etc. Then expanding the lead and copyediting and it should pass GA! Anyone want to join in? Aboutmovies 05:13, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I am a WU alum and would be interested in helping with this. I love researching, so this would be a lot of fun. I see you made this list in '07, so is it all still up-to-date? By the way, the Waller Hall article looks great. I did a lot of research on Waller during my undergrad years and it looks great. I'll go ahead and start researching for the CLA article.BellaMaeMe (talk) 16:26, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds great. I just finished law school there and will not be around there as much to take pictures, or do research in the library. Currently, I'm waiting for the Mark O. Hatfield Library and Oregon Civic Justice Center to pass GA. This will then give us those two, Waller (thanks, I did most of the research with some help from User:Katr67), the museum, and the law school at the GA level. And yes the list is a bit dated. Doing the CLA article would be a big help, the Chronicles of Willamette are great source for history if you didn't already know from your Waller research. Also, I've found Google Books and News (the search all dates specifically) great for research, and the Oregonian archives if you have free access to them. Since the list was completed, I did write the athletics article, the Art Building, Lausanne Hall, a list of alumni, and re-worked the WP:LEAD. Plus some law school deans, school presidents, the law journal, the newspaper, and maybe something else I'm forgetting.
 * As to work to get this a lot better: I think the LEAD is about where it needs to be in the way of content, though maybe a few tweaks here and there. Round out the history and campus sections (though more below). Generally expand and source the academics section, and ditto with the campus life. Plus the alumni list should be trimmed to I'd say about 10-15 and converted to prose (see here for a similar section done the now proper way). Also, some new articles to help keep things from getting too big:


 * A campus article (see Campus of Michigan State University): this has some great info to work into the article
 * A history article (see History of Michigan State University): would include a much expanded and more complete version than what is there, plus would be a good place to add a list of presidents.
 * CLA article (James Madison College is about the best I could find for an undergraduate type program)
 * I'll make adjustments after more review. But I think once these surrounding articles are all created and have been worked into Good Articles, it will make it easier to to get the main one up to snuff as all the sources will be available to use here. Then getting it through to featured status should be a snap. Also this is a general guide for college articles. Thanks for your interest, and hopefully we can make the articles look good. Aboutmovies (talk) 07:18, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

History source

 * Oregon Blue Book Aboutmovies (talk) 11:39, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Western United States
"oldest university in the western united states." Perhaps a more defined version of what western mean in this contexts is needed. Everything west of the Mississippi River is also a common definition of the Western United States. Missouri contains at least three universities. Saint Louis University, University of Missouri, and Lindenwood University that were founded earlier. Grey Wanderer (talk) 01:56, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If you look at the university's logo in the infobox you can see that it claims to be the "first university in the west", thus, I'd say we can safely assume that we are using the definition at Western United States that includes the dark red states. On this coast, we don't usually consider Missouri part of the west. I suppose we could footnote it to explain what I just said above. Katr67 (talk) 20:59, 20 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The map that is linked to for Western United States clearly shows Missouri in light red and includes the following quote: "The Mississippi River is often referenced as the easternmost possible boundary of The West." It is clearly misleading to claim that Willamette is the oldest college in the "west" and then point to a link that says that Missouri can be part of the west. I recommend that either the claim be removed, or geographical definition be provided that is not plainly misleading. DetrimentalReliance (talk) 21:08, 20 October 2008 (UTC)


 * It also says "Because the United States expanded westward after its founding, the meaning of the West has evolved over time." and "The states shown in dark red are usually included, while all or portions of the striped states may or may not be considered part of present-day western United States." and "As defined by the Census Bureau, the western United States includes 13 states: Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Utah, Washington, and Wyoming." I'd say common sense would dictate that we're using the definiton that includes the dark red states. But if it's important to you that the lede of the article not be misleading, rewrite it in a way that includes the world "oldest" with the definition that will make that be accurate, rather than taking it out completely. Then you might want to talk to the school: http://www.willamette.edu/index.php Note the masthead on the page. Katr67 (talk) 21:21, 20 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't need to talk to the school. Willamette is not the oldest college west of the Mississippi - end of story. Even if they believed otherwise, their incorrect claim would not belong in the wiki article. Of course, I'm sure they know that several colleges in Missouri are older, and that is precisely why they say "western united states", an ambiguous term, rather than "west of the mississippi". In any event ambiguity is not good enough. If you want me to correct the entry, I will say it is the oldest college in the united states west of the Xth parallel. (Whatever that happens to be). If you prefer some other way of stating it that isn't misleading or plain wrong, as it is now, you are welcome to suggest it. DetrimentalReliance (talk) 21:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)


 * P.S. I note the Census Bureau doesn't count Missouri either. Note that I'm not at all invested in Willamette's marketing and PR claims, and have nothing against Missouri, but I do think that we should be considering the present-day definion of "the West" vs. the 1800 definition. Katr67 (talk) 21:02, 20 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The article doesn't point to the census bureau's definition of "west" - it points to this one: Western United States and it is plain wrong. Apparently the options are 1) remove claim, or 2) provide precise definition of the term "west" that doesn't make the claim false. DetrimentalReliance (talk) 21:16, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I pick #2. Great idea! Let me know if you need help formatting the citations. Katr67 (talk) 21:29, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Official website in External links section
Another editor reverted my addition of the university's official website to the External links section of this article. His or her rationale is that there is already such a link in the infobox. I don't think it's sufficient to have a link only there where readers are not terribly likely to see it. Further, this link is of such importance that it's ok to have twice, particularly since the first instance is rather small and out-of-the-way. Finally, placing such a link in the External links section is consistent with nearly every other college article and nearly every other article in general.

(I also note that the reversion also changed the Commons link back to a non-standard form. I'm not sure why this one article should be unique among college/university articles...)

Your thoughts? ElKevbo (talk) 03:14, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * (copying most here from reply at user's talk) First, I hope you realize UNIGUIDE is not actually a guideline, thus it has little weight. Now, WP:EL is a guideline, so we should follow it, and your edits have not. If you saw my link in the edit summary here, hopefully you took the time to read that section, which covers this point specifically, and not tangentially like other portions of EL (such as your quote on my talk page): If several external links are listed and the subject of the article is a living person, organization, web service, or otherwise has an official website, it is normal practice to place the link to that site at the top of the list (if it is not already in an appropriate infobox). Thus, I have been "mak[ing] edits that contravene the established guidelines", however, you have not been. Oh, and, yes, it is usually where the official is listed, even though it is in the infobox, but only because people like yourself are not aware of the actual policy. Not to mention WP:OTHERSTUFF.
 * Now as to the actual guideline and its merits, that discussion belongs at EL, but this has been a part of EL for years. But, in general, Wikipedia does not exist to drive traffic to other websites, so there is no need to list an EL as many times as possible. The upper right corner of any online or print media is an important area and a high traffic area. It is highly visible and reserved for important information, and thus having the EL there (instead of buried at the end of an article) is a great place for it.
 * Lastly, as to the commons link, we use the inline version where there are not enough links in the EL section to make use of the template version that floats to the right. As in, here, there is one EL, thus the large template version is out of balance. Which is why the inline version was created. And as to "unique", no. Going just through the 8 public universities in Oregon, a total of two had the template as you had it. Some had no link (which I think nationally is likely the plurality), some use the inline, 2 use the regular template, and one using the large "sister projects" template. So, Willamette would hardly be unique. Aboutmovies (talk) 05:49, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I've dropped a note on the Talk page of WP:EL; it would be best to centralize the discussion there since this issue spans multiple articles and is likely to draw much wider attention there. ElKevbo (talk) 05:57, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Misleading WU/TIUA Roommate Information
Original text reads "Chi Omega was transformed into a multicultural oriented residence, placing American Willamette students with TIUA roommates and is known as WISH (Willamette International Studies House)." This is not an accurate representation of WISH's role on campus. TIUA students are routinely placed with Willamette students in all residence halls across campus, not only in WISH. Therefore, I have changed the sentence to read, "Chi Omega was transformed into a multicultural oriented residence known as WISH (Willamette International Studies House)." Please discuss if you have any questions or concerns. Midnightreport (talk) 03:44, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * What would be even better is a citation to a published reliable source. Aboutmovies (talk) 04:32, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * http://www.tiua.edu/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=72 This page discusses how TIUA students are dispersed across campus in all the residential living communities. I am working on how to integrate this information into the article. Midnightreport (talk) 07:51, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

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OE source

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