Talk:William A. Shine Great Neck South High School/Archive 1

recent edits
"A wide variety of students attend South High School. All have at least average ability, some have exceptional learning abilities and artistic talents, while others have special educational needs." That part is neutral. Public schools have a variety of students unlike private schools. When it says average ability...it means that they are capable of graduating. People with special educational needs have average ability. They can graduate just as well. (209.177.21.6 - Talk )
 * As I responded on my talk page, this statement is not true, meaningful, or neutrally worded. Since some students at Great Neck South do not pass the Regents each year, then clearly it is not true that all students have "at least average" ability. Special education students do not necessarily have "average ability". The problem is compounded since you aren't defining "average ability", it is a meaningless term which doesn't belong in an article that is supposed to be Verifiable. "Capable of graduating" is not equivalent to "average ability". The word "average" has a statistical definition, and it is statistically impossible to have an average where no members of the population are below that average (unless all members are exactly equal). Rhobite 23:17, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Photo wanted for School
As it has been uploaded. I'm assuming that we no longer need a photo now. MrMacMan 04:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

RFC
I have started an RFC in order to solicit additional opinions about whether this passage is appropriate:
 * "A wide variety of students attend South High School. All have at least average ability, some have exceptional learning abilities and artistic talents, while others have special educational needs."

Please note that the same dispute is taking place on Great Neck North High School and Great Neck Village School, but for the sake of central discussion let's talk about it here. Thanks. Rhobite 01:07, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The entire sentence should be cut. "Average" is a relative term, and no source is provided for any of the claims. · j e r s y k o talk · 01:13, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Concur with Jersyko. It's unsourced and implausible, and should definitely go.  The Village School (at least) also appears to be non-notable, and I'm inclined to propose it for deletion. PubliusFL 19:35, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Why are you deleting Great Neck Village School? It's part of the Great Neck School District? If you delete Great Neck Village School, you would also have to delete Great Neck South High School and Great Neck North High School. They are part of the school district as well. (209.177.21.6 - Talk )


 * Because the articles on South and North have sources to support a claim of notability, and the Village School article does not. If you have third-party sources to support the Village School article, I encourage you to add them.  By the way, I can't delete it myself (I'm not an admin), I can only suggest that it be deleted.  PubliusFL 21:07, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Village School has a site just like South and North does. Okay...let's delete the Village School...how do we delete the Village School? (209.177.21.6 - Talk )
 * I have a problem with the suggestion that the Village School article be deleted. It's a necessary part of the Great Neck School District and has a rich history of providing more individualized education. If I need to I could provide more sources about the school, but I never felt it was necessary. I feel some of these edits made to these 3 pages were done incorrectly and didn't follow policy, but there is no underlying problem with the Village School article IMO. MrMacMan 00:52, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

The only difference between Village School and South or North is that it is a small school. I think Village School should be deleted because there's nothing important about that school. It's never been rated in Newsweek Magazine's recent listing of "America's Best High Schools". I feel that Village School is like in a complete different universe than South or North. Village School have different rules...first the students are allowed to be disrespectful to their teachers...i.e. calling their teachers by their first names...that's messed up...as children we were always taught to call teachers by their last names. And now the VS can do it...The Great Neck School district is a hypocrite...they teach us as children to always call teachers by their last names...if we don't it's disrespectful. (209.177.21.6 - Talk )
 * Responding to the RFC and not the above tangents, the statement is a non sequitur. Technically, nothing can be "at least" average. A thing either is below, above or exactly average. Speaking loosely and with imprecision it would be okay to say this about a person, and I have heard this as an expression, meaning "he/she's no dummy". But about a group—it makes no sense at all. A randomly distributed group will have a bell curve with only those in the middle being average. Moreover, the statement is even more incongruous because it appears within a sentence stating some students "have exceptional learning abilities..." (i.e. above average) "while others have special educational needs" (i.e. below average). I am assuming there has been some conflict over removing the statement. Maybe the solution is to figure out what is meant and place an statement in the article that comports with the intended meaning. "The average test/SAT/regents scores of the student body rank in the ___ percentile as compared with public high schools nationwide"? Of course such a statement would need attribution.--Fuhghettaboutit 05:59, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Responding from the RfC - without a specific source, WTF does average ability even mean? Average ability to write a math test?  Average ability to rebuild a transmission?  Average ability to juggle chainsaws while riding a unicycle?  Without a source, the sentence is meaningless - it doesn't specify what the average is, how its measured, and so on.  Source it, or chuck it, for sure.  WilyD 14:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Assessment
Following a request his article has now been assessed for the Wiki Schools Project, the feedback given was as follows: ''Contains plenty of content, but reference issues need to be resolved. The article also needs some expansion with more detail needed on topics like the school curriculum.'' Camaron1 | Chris 20:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

what do you think??
Click on this link:

What kind of student would write a sick threat to the school on YouTube? I thought this was a good school. I guess I'm wrong...And what kind of principal announces to the WHOLE school that a "youngster" threatened the school? Doesn't he think that would traumatize the school? JEEZ...after the Virginia Tech massacre everything is CRAZY! That ASIAN kid is psycho...he should of at least just kill himself first instead of hurting other people. We should add this under the trivia...it's relevant... I hope that student who threatened our school goes to Village School. I bet Mr. Ross is going to ask this student to go there. The Village School really is a "dumpster" for bad kids.(69.117.20.128 - talk)
 * As a student it may seem strange to you that the principal sent this letter, but these sorts of occurrences are not secrets. There are arrest records, newspaper articles, inevitable rumors at school, etc. Attempting to keep it secret would be impossible, and it would anger the parents greatly. Trust me, the principal did the right thing by announcing what happened. Rhobite 03:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Really I thought you could have done better with your argument here instead of trying to just be inflammatory. MrMacMan  Talk  04:16, 30 April 2007 (UTC))

confused
Why would parents get angry if it had nothing to do with their children? So are you saying that the principal should announce to the whole school everytime a student get suspended? What happened to confidentiality? That's ridiculous...It's very truamatizing to hear your school principal say that we are being threatened. Why can't he just hide it from us? Let us be kids...let us be happy instead of being sad...what is he doing...trying to ruin us from having a good day...that day I couldn't think of anything but the threat...i couldn't concentrate in school at all..

anyway, it wasn't even in the newspaper at all and I only heard this from the principal...no other sources told me..And also that letter is from the superintendent, not from the principal.

"Really I thought you could have done better with your argument here instead of trying to just be inflammatory." What??? who are you talking to? it's not an argument...it's more of a disagreement...What do you mean you could have done better with your argument here instead of trying to just be inflammatory. And by the way, Mrs. Goodman is still waiting for you. She says that "you've moved on"...prove that she's wrong by coming to visit us. (Jessica - talk)
 * I'm at school in Poughkeepsie... its hard to get down to great neck... as for the other stuff I'll get back to you. MrMacMan Talk  21:47, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Sources, revamp, etc
Alright, I'm seriously thinking about becoming the maintainer for this article -- Maintained. It's become very, very apparent that we can find sources for the information in this article, but no one has yet. Today I took a giant step forward sourced the math team subtopic that was removed as uncited. Every single award of national achievement that is in the article can be sourced, but many haven't and there is no reason for that. In the upcoming weeks I hope to cite every award or other recognition that the school has said to have been given so far in this article. Do I know that there are a lot that isn't here? Oh yes I do, but that's were I'm going to start my work. MrMacMan Talk  00:10, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Reason for revert
Hold it....we don't know for sure it's a male....how do we know it was in school suspension....it could of been out of school suspension...it never mentioned that on the letter. The letter said that the student was arrested...they didn't mention anything about suspension. They mentioned suspension in the South Middle School incident. Maybe that information was confidential. We shouldn't be posting things that aren't true without proper references. (Jessica - talk)
 * Do you want me to find the police report for the incident or should i just accept what the school told me about what happened? Heck, how do i know the police reports weren't forged? Should i contact the arresting officer? What about his family? Do we really need to debate these points? Didn't you add this to the article in the first place? Jessica your killing me here. MrMacMan  Talk  02:10, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Very funny, I'm surprised you didn't revert that. I didn't make the rules up.  Wikipedia always says that I need proper references.  I know that I put that up in the first place but then I realized the suspension was for the South Middle School incident.  I'm sorry for reading it wrong the first time.  (Jessica - talk)

Senior high school
I go to this school and it is a senior high school. Check out this link: It even says it's a senior high school. Why can't we say this is a senior high school? It's just adding more detail.(Ben - talk)
 * Oh hi, Ben. Imdb is not a reliable source and cannot be used. Furthermore, Imdb implies that that is the 'name' of the school, when in fact it is not, it does not seem to be implying what type of school it is. Also wikipedia's school project helps us classify what template's we should use and what links we should have -- we should have the ability to see that the school is a public high school right away, with senior high school it doesn't tell us anything about it being public/private/ etc. MrMacMan  Talk  17:20, 14 May 2007 (UTC)


 * How is Imdb not a reliable source? If it's not, why do people go on that site if it's not reliable. People go on a site for facts, not made up stuff.  How do you know if a site is a reliable source?  (John - talk)


 * Ignoring the IMDb reliability issue, I did a Google search using "great neck south high school" and found about 16,100 sources. The same search using "great neck south senior high school" found 21 sources. The school's web site refers to the school as "William A. Shine Great Neck South High School", and a picture of the school shows the same text on the building's side. I think this would be pretty firm support for using "public high school", rather than "senior high school". Alansohn 19:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * There is an 80 to 1 ratio of references to "great neck south high school" vs. "great neck south senior high school", as listed above. Click here for a statement on the school's web page which states "To our knowledge, we are the only PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL opera company in the nation." (emphasis added). Again, the issue is not that you can find the school referenced as a "senior high school". The issue is that the overwhelming usage is "great neck south high school" and we do have a reference to the school as a public high school. I encourage you to try to see that consensus supports this approach. Alansohn 20:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

So is Imdb a reliable source? If it's not a reliable source, then how come most of wikipedia articles has imdb included as one of their outside source? Great Neck South High School is a high school and a senior high school. The fact that it uses both terms proves it. (Jessica - talk)