Talk:William D. Boyce/Archive 1

weather report
How can it be known that the weather was clear in london on the date of the "legend" when the actual date is not cited anywhere, after looking through several sources it only states that the date of the "legend" was some time in the fall of 1909. If the statement is to be posted, the date of the encounter must be posted and cited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.71.27.72 (talk • contribs)
 * Find and read the ISCA ref, it explains it in great detail.Rlevse 02:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Bitmap image
The invisible should be converted to a PNG. How was a bitmap image even uploaded to Wikipedia? Whenever, I've tried, I always received an error message.--Clearspeak 07:34, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

It was uploaded three years ago- there was probably no checking in place. I converted it to PNG with no problem, but I don't know how to license it. I have no idea where this image came from. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 10:30, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Our image expert told me to use PD-US, so I uploaded a PNG to commons.Rlevse 09:56, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Good. I'm marking the old one for deletion. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:56, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Diana Oughton
Boyce's great-grandaughter: Diana Oughton. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 00:47, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Date of death
The date listed for W. D. Boyce's death is inconsistent. The initial paragraph says June 11, 1929, and the section down the page titled "Death" lists the same date, but the Infobox gives May 11, 1929. I am going to change the Infobox to match the other to citations, but someone with access to more reference material than I should double-check it and make sure it's right. Markkawika (talk) 21:25, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


 * It is June—I must have gotten the number wrong when I recently added the infobox. --—  Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  23:21, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

First wife
Boyce's first wife was Mary Jane Beacom. It's often reported in error as Deacon. See refs in article. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 22:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The spouses of his kids and their kids are discussed on pages 106-108 of the Petterchak book. Sydney married a survivor of the Titanic.  — Rlevse • Talk  • 14:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * P.148, after unsuccessful attempts to sell the mansion, Mary had it demolished in 1946 and moved to Carmel, CA with her daughter Happy. — Rlevse • Talk  • 02:32, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Placeholder for miscellaneous copyediting and stylistic notes

 * In the back-country days of his childhood, Boyce acquired a love for the outdoors and a tremendous work ethic.  - hmmmm, need to think about this one. I know what you are saying but comes across as a wee bit schmaltzy rather than encyclopedic tone. Try to think of a more sober way of phrasing. Nothing comes to mind for me (no coffee yet). Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:07, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * check fix — Rlevse • Talk  • 20:48, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * ...a woman also experienced in the ways of the outdoors - ack, same,is there any material on her outdoors experience? Maybe this would be a better way of describing her. But don't ust delete.
 * check fix — Rlevse • Talk  • 20:33, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Is there any reported reason why he separated from his first wife known? Would be an important bit to add I'd a thought.
 * Seems like a mid-life crisis, wife and daughters vacationed separately, daughters studied in Europe, their "differences existed for several years" Boyce says. How to work this in? — Rlevse • Talk  • 20:53, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * 'X...drifted apartgrew apart/led increasingly separate lives...and eventually divorced.' (actually last is best - 'led increasingly separate lives'
 * done.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 23:12, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * As Boyce traveled, he left many things in his wake. - aargh! I know what you mean but sounds so vague. Need to reword but agian nothing comes to mind (and I have had 2 coffees now)
 * check fix. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 23:13, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Better. more to come. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:03, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * ...in which Boyce was facially wounded. ungainly sounding


 * The hotel had Ben arrested for disorderly conduct. Ben was fined $5 and court costs. - maybe we could just say "Ben was arrested for disorderly conduct, fined $5 and court costs." (?)


 * Almost immediately, there was speculation about problems with this marriage. - who speculated or where.


 * which incited speculation that she might reconcile with Boyce - bolded bit - incited is funny verb here.
 * done all. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 14:51, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * paras 3 and 4 of Personal life repeat "Boyce" quite a bit, if they can be reduced at all without introducing ambiguity that would be helpful.
 * done <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 14:45, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Some of Boyce's operations were in other buildings. - sounds awkward, reword.
 * cut it and added word to next sentence. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 14:42, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Comments
Rlevse asked me to take a look - sorry it took me so long! This is a bit of a mishmash of nitpicky things that don't matter, questions, and more detailed comments.
 * probably too detailed for the lead: "Funded by Boyce's personal annual contribution of $100,000, the LSA boasted a membership of nearly 500,000, although this figure was reported by Lone Scout magazine editors as being wildly inflated." (I'd just remove the sentence)
 * rm'd


 * It seems a bit out of place to mention that his divorce was on the front page of the Chicago Tribune. At this point we don't really know whether that was a big deal or not, or why anyone really cared
 * took a stab at explaining this


 * The information about the cigars seems a bit trivial
 * removed.


 * The house in Ottawa is discussed as his before it is mentioned that he bought it. That seems a bit confusing
 * fixed order


 * If the family was mostly settled in Illinois, why did the first divorce take place in South Dakota?
 * It doesn't say, prob because they spent a lot of time there and there are fewer people = less publicity


 * At this time, didn't divorce filings have to have a reason? Were the reasons in either of his divorce filings worth mentioning?
 * They don't say


 * Is there any information on how he became interested in newspapers? That doesn't appear to have a lot to do with his previous jobs.  Same with cotton expositions.
 * Expounded on publishing, nothing says how the cotton expo job came about, prob due to his publishing prominence


 * What does this mean? "he insisted on the welfare of delivery boys"
 * expounded


 * I'm not sure what relevance the Pullman Strike anecdote has to this man; on a second reading, I get it - perhaps a small reorganization of those two sentences?
 * done


 * Did he win or lose the 1903 suit against the MArseilles Land and Power Company?
 * Answered and expanded.


 * We are told that in 1904 Ben got positions in water and power businesses...was that mentioned before that he owned those?
 * addressed while fixing another one


 * Any info on how he "revamped" the newspapers to make them more popular? I'm curious about what types of things his newspapers might have focused on (I'm not familiar with newspapers of the time period)
 * not exactly, so I rm'd that sentence


 * Was Movie Romances one of the first tabloids?
 * yes, added


 * Do we need a cite for " There are several variations of this legend, such as one that claimed he knew about Scouting ahead of time."?
 * I thought that was explained, but I added cites anyway


 * What are Tribe Papers? They are mentioned but not explained.
 * fixed, with refs


 * Is there any more information about his books? There are a lot of them, and I am curious how well they were received.
 * Overall, I think this is a reasonably well-written article, it's just in a style that is very different than I am used to seeing (or writing). I don't know how it will go over at FAC - there may be a backlash, or people might like it.  The current structure demands that the reader be familiar with the lead (I often skip the lead and just read the article), and it seems to explain rather than demonstrate some of its facts.  For example, the business enterprises section begins with "Boyce's success as a businessman ", but in the body of the article we are not told that he was a businessman; the last we knew he was shifting from job to job around the country. The section then goes into a discussion of he compares to Teddy Roosevelt...but we still haven't been shown that he actually deserves to be compared to the president.  We then go back in time to establish that he was a successful businessman.  We are also told twice in this section about the newspapers he bought in Chicago.
 * Moved that para with TR to the end, thougths?


 * Another example: we are told that "Boyce's Weekly, an international paper recognized as a defender of worker's rights" but not given any examples. What did it advocate?  How big a role did Boyce play in steering the newspaper?
 * worked


 * Scouting information is often repeated in the Scouting sections, too. To me, this is usually a sign of potential organizational improvements (for example, we learn twice about when the BSA got its federal charter)
 * worked


 * I also like to have personal information scattered through the article rather than all tucked away in its own section. I think it could benefit this article to bring the info about his divorce and remarriage to be intermixed with the rest (since it is referred to at any rate)
 * did some of that

Karanacs (talk) 17:37, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Just a little clarification - I am used to seeing biography articles that are in more chronological order rather than divided by topic (personal life, business, scouting, in this case). Occasionally I see some that have the personal life divided out, but there is usually only a small amount of personal information.  There is a decent amount of personal life information in this article, which stood out to me a little more than usual.  There is not necessarily anything wrong with the structure, it just seems a bit off to me.  Others may think it is fine this way. Karanacs (talk) 15:57, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I tried straight chronological once and got beat up for "shifting topics". <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 01:08, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Copyediting questions and comments
asked me to copyedit this article. As usual, my copyediting usually raises lots of questions. I have posted them here, along with some comments, since I know this article is headed for FAC. As someone who has had a lot of experience reviewing and submitting FACs, I think that this article might have some trouble at FAC in its current state, therefore I have tried to provide some suggestions for improving it:

Organization
 * While most biographies are written chronologically, that is not the only way. However, it is much more difficult to write a topical biography, for several reasons. First, you have to make sure that the domestic matters are not shunted to the side. Unfortunately, I feel that they have been. It is almost as if we get the wives and children "out of the way" at the beginning of the article. Second. you have to avoid repetition, which is also a problem in this article. For example, we hear about Mary and William's separation twice ("Personal life" and "Business enterprises" sections) and we hear about the merging of Saturday Blade, etc. twice (paragraphs 3 and 9 of "Business enterprises") - this is poor organization. One might argue that important events are worth repeating, but I do not get the sense that repetition is being used for emphasis in this article - I get the sense that pieces of information are being repeated because the article hasn't been constructed quite carefully enough. Third, a non-chronological presentation makes readers do a lot of work - they have the weave the timeline together themselves, with hints from the text. However, this article doesn't give the reader a lot of hints to remind them of what is happening when. I would suggest that this article either be rewritten chronologically to avoid these problems or that the three issues I outlined above be carefully addressed.
 * William Hanna and Joseph Barbera are set up this way, so why is it okay there and not here?
 * Please read my comment carefully - I did not say it was unacceptable to write the article topically. I explained why the current organization has some flaws and I suggested several different strategies for improving it. Awadewit (talk) 01:38, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I have to disagree, this is a matter of personal opinion. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 02:01, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * In general, the paragraphs in each individual section are unconnected. With biographies, we often try to tell a story about the person's life. See, for example, Emmeline Pankhurst, which excellently weaves history into the personal narrative. In reading this article, I kept feeling as if I was lurching from topic to topic rather than reading a seamless article (for example, suddenly Ben reappears in the "Business enterprises" section and then disappears again - I was thrown). It is difficult to write a seamless article on people for whom there are only a few sources, but not impossible. For example, the issue of worker's rights comes up several times in the "Business enterprises" section. Why not move from talking about Boyce's Weekly to talking about the Pullman strike? Even if one chooses to organize a biography topically, those topics must flow together. Without the organizing structure of a chronology to drive the article, you must find another way to link the topics together.


 * Many communities and publishers, including Boyce, benefited from federal regulations of the era that permitted the free mailing of newspapers within the county of publication. - This sentence is just tacked on to the first paragraph of "Business enterprises". The paragraph is largely about the specific enterprises Boyce undertook, not how he ran them. To introduce this sudden change in topic is jarring for the reader. I noticed that the last paragraph in the section has some information on how Boyce ran his businesses - perhaps there should be some reorganization?
 * Moved the sentence to the end. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 20:32, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I would rewrite the fourth paragraph of "Business enterprises" - it strays away from Boyce and starts to focus too much on the buildings. Most everything in the article should revolve around Boyce - once he is no longer central to a person or thing's history, the information should be left for another article. For example, I would take out the information about National Register of Historic Places. This is more important for the history of the building than it is to the history of Boyce.
 * I really don't see how a couple sentences of extra context hurt <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 02:02, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The first paragraph of "Lone Scouts of America" needs to be rewritten and perhaps broken up into two paragraphs. I would suggest a paragraph on the LSA and a paragraph on the magazines. Right now, the information is rather jumbled together.
 * Re-org'd. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 20:40, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Prose
 * In general, the writing has two overarching problems which need to be addressed: precision and context:
 * 1) Much of the diction lacks the precision required to convey the exact meaning which the editor intended. This is difficult to do. What we want to say is often in our heads, just not "on the page".
 * 2) Some of the events are introduced without any historical context for the reader. Unfortunately, we have to assume a rather ignorant reader. Also, sometimes the context within Boyce's own life is missing.

Let me give some examples:

Precision:
 * Born in Plum Township, Pennsylvania, he acquired a love for the outdoors and a strong work ethic early in his life. - Alarm bells go off when I read "strong work ethic" - When I read "strong work ethic", I think of Max Weber - we should avoid these associations, unless they are deliberately made by the sources. The article states that "During his rural childhood, Boyce acquired a love for the outdoors and a strong work ethic." - What real evidence is there for this strong work ethic? This sounds more like hagiography than biography.
 * Fixed. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 20:48, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * There, he established the Mutual Newspaper Publishing Company and the weekly Saturday Blade, which catered to a rural audience and was distributed by a legion of newspaper boys - What is "a legion"? Later, the article says "thousands". Can we be precise? The tone of "a legion" is unencyclopedic - it is overwritten.
 * Fixed. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 20:48, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * As Boyce traveled, he left a legacy wherever he went, usually a newspaper. - "left a legacy wherever he went" - Again, this sounds hagiographic rather than encyclopedic - it is extremely vague. If Boyce was primarily a newspaperman, focus on describing that.
 * Fixed. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 20:48, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * His first venture into commercial publishing was compiling a city directory.  - This sounds like Boyce himself did some of the compiling - is that the case, or was he just the publisher?
 * source doesn't clarify.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 20:48, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * He also worked briefly for a publisher in Columbus, Ohio and a newspaper publisher in Kensington, Pennsylvania. - What kind of publisher was the one in Columbus?
 * source doesn't say.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 20:48, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Boyce would add additional newspapers, buying out the Chicago Ledger, a fiction weekly, in 1892 - "add additional newspapers" to what? his publishing company?
 * yes. fixed.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 20:48, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * In January 1903 he founded the international Boyce's Weekly, which focused on worker's rights.  - "focused on" or "advocated"?
 * advocated is better, chg'd. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 21:10, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Boyce's prominence as a supporter of labor attracted labor leaders such as John Mitchell and Henry Demarest Lloyd. - Attracted them to do what? Write for the newspaper?
 * as writers and editors, added it. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 21:10, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The expedition was a failure because no telephoto lens was brought - Did they forget the telephoto lens?
 * fixed. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 23:39, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * which was at odds with his own expressed belief in the superiority of the white man - This is antiquated language - "whites", perhaps?
 * fixed. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 23:39, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * In the summer of 1917 during his annual Dakota hunt, the Gros Ventres Indian tribe made him an honorary chief with the name "Big Cloud" during a three-day ceremony. - Who is "him"?
 * fixed. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 23:39, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The LSA issued a formal proclamation in late 1920 that it would only accept whites and in 1922 changed the masthead from "A Real Boys' Magazine" to "The White Boys Magazine". - I assume it was Lone Scout magazine that changed its masthead?
 * fixed. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 23:39, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Context:
 * His books often used the phrase "We pushed on." - At this point in the article, it is not clear what books you are talking about. The context is missing.
 * fixed<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 19:34, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Beginning in December 1884, Boyce managed the "Bureau of Correspondence" at the six-month long World's Industrial and Cotton Centennial Exposition in New Orleans, Louisiana - In what capacity did Boyce manage this bureau? I feel like some information is missing here. Was he a reporter? Was he managing other reporters?
 * fixed<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 19:34, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * He often returned in North Dakota for business deals and deer- and duck-hunting vacations - Can you expand on what kind of business deals he did in ND?
 * fixed<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 19:34, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * In Chicago, he established the Mutual Newspaper Publishing Company. - When? Could we add a brief description, such as where the newspapers were located that it owned or how many newspapers it owned?
 * fixed<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 19:34, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Its success spawned the W.D. Boyce Publishing Company - How was this company different than Mutual? Did it publish things other than newspapers, for example?
 * copyedite. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 20:15, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Working with them may have helped him gain an understanding of America's youth.  - How exactly did Boyce work with the boys?
 * Seems covered. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 20:00, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The rights of women and workers were important to Boyce: his businesses employed many women and he supported labor unions. - You need to put this into context for the reader. Was this at a time when it was difficult for women to get jobs? Was this at a time when labor was oppressed in the US? Explain why Boyce's support was significant. (Helpful reference: I teach undergraduates at a state university in the US. Most of them could not tell you when women got the vote in the US.) (Later, when you explain By 1920, the majority of Americans lived in cities instead of rural areas. Lone Scout, Saturday Blade, and Chicago Ledger all focused on rural customers and began to falter. Boyce launched Home Folks Magazine in a attempt to regain customers, I thought to myself - excellent!)
 * fixed<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 21:38, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * His businesses were able to pay out wages and benefits during the Panic of 1893. - Again, is this in contrast to other businesses? Did Boyce make sacrifices of some kind? The reader needs more context to understand this fact.
 * fixed<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 21:38, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * During the Pullman Strike of the Pullman Palace Car Company in 1894, which spread to 20 companies in over half the states, Boyce called Eugene V. Debs of the American Railway Union a "great labor leader" and George Pullman the man "who caused all the trouble" - Again, you need to describe who Debs and Pullman are. The average reader is not going to know about this incident (sadly).
 * fixed<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 21:38, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * These changes may have been in part caused by the destruction of his Ottawa mansion in early 1908 - How was it destroyed?
 * fixed<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 21:38, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * In late January 1915, Boyce sailed to England because of his concern over World War I - What did he do there?
 * already in the next two sentencesfixed<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 21:38, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * As Boyce's interest in philanthropy grew, he turned to his childhood as a resource, but could not find a way to channel his charitable ideas and dreams until a fateful stop to England while en route to what became the failed photographic expedition with Lawrence to Africa. - So what did his childhood provide?
 * added resources<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 21:44, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Subsequent competition from the LSA caused West to seek a federal charter for BSA. - This is confusing for the reader, as neither the LSA nor West have been introduced in the article proper.
 * fixed<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 21:44, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * LSA had a distinct Native American flavor. - How so?
 * explained<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 22:02, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Benjamin Boyce died in 1928 of a heart embolism. His father did not arrive home until after his son's death. Boyce was so saddened over his son's death that his own health suffered. - Reading the article, you don't get the sense that father and son are close.
 * They had their moments but Boyce cared for him. We could either rm "saddened" and let readers or leave as is<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 22:02, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * One of Boyce's last efforts was to publish his son's letters from his South Seas expeditions: Dear Dad Letters from New Guinea - This is a sudden introduction of the South Seas expedition - remember the reader knows nothing about it.
 * Boyce didn't go it, that's why, letters are fm Ben to dad <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 22:02, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Other copyediting issues:
 * quick learner of business - This is just so awkward - we have to find a single word for "quick learner"
 * fixed<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 00:25, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Others newspapers established included Farm Business in 1914 and Home Folks Magazine in 1922. - Is there a reason to have this in the passive voice? Did Boyce establish these?
 * fixed<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 00:25, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Boyce felt that delivering and selling newspapers taught a youth adult responsibilities such as being polite, reading human nature, and handling money - Are we absolutely sure that Boyce said that "politeness" and "reading human nature" were "adult responsibilities"? This doesn't make much sense - I just want to make sure that we are reporting his views accurately.
 * changed adult to important, seems more accurate on a reread of the source.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 00:25, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Boyce's focused determination was evident in the advice he gave to young men: "There are many obstacles to overcome, but toil, grit and endurance will help you to overcome them all. Help yourself and others will help you." and "...whatever trade you have selected; never swerve from that purpose a single moment until it is accomplished." - This quote does not seem to have anything to do with Boyce's attempt to buy the postal service. I would delete it.
 * moved to where he talks about newsboys, it shows his views <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 00:55, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Boyce's Republican credentials and monetary contributions earned him an invitation to the presidential inauguration and ball of William Howard Taft in March 1909.[4] Immediately thereafter, he embarked on a two-month trip to Europe, which included a visit to his daughters, who were in Rome. - This information does not seem relevant to the "Expeditions" section. I would delete it or move it to another location.
 * moved <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 00:55, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * He met Boy Scouts in Algeria, who saluted him when they found out Boyce was a founder of Scouting in America. - This is strange for readers because they haven't read about the founding of Scouting yet in the article proper; also "a founder" or "the founder"?
 * moved and expanded<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 00:55, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * one of many civic and professional organizations formed during the Progressive Era to fill the void of citizens who had become distended from their rural roots - I'm not sure I understand this.
 * Those separated from their (rural) roots by moving to the cities during this urbanization era could reconnect via an outdoor based organization (Scouting).<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 01:29, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * But this Scout only helped him cross a street to a hotel; he did not take him to the Scout headquarters, and Boyce never met Baden-Powell. - This is confusing, as the retelling of the myth doesn't include taking Boyce to Scout headquarters.
 * de conflicted. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 01:29, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I would remove all the details about the fog in the "Unknown Scout legend" - those seem more appropriate for Unknown Scout article.
 * Have to disagree there. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 00:02, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * What are we thinking about the information included about William Boyce Mueller? It feels tacked on and sensational. I assume this is a living person. I wonder if this information isn't more relevant in some sort of Scouting article about membership or an article about William Boyce Mueller?
 * His direct descendant is part of the biggest BSA controversey of the era, linked to article on it. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 00:02, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Do any of these newspapers have articles? Should they be redlinked?
 * No, No. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 00:02, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

MOS
 * I would recommend that you have look over the article for MOS-compliance. I noticed and fixed some "MOS violations" (as they will call them at FAC), but Epbr123 is a MOS guru. I would also suggest asking  to run his dashbot over the article. It fixes all of the dashes and hyphens - no more WP:DASH worries! (However, it is best to do this when all revisions and copyediting are finished, obviously.)
 * asked both<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 00:02, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Suggestions:
 * What do you think about putting a quote box in the "Expeditions" section, with a quote from a story about one of Boyce's expeditions?
 * I hate quote boxes.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 00:15, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I was wondering if it would be possible to obtain an image of any of Boyce's newspapers. I looked some of them up in the American newspaper databases at my university, but we didn't have any of them. If not, perhaps we could add a picture of a newsboy, since he cared about their rights? Or perhaps an LSA uniform? The article just seems to be lacking in contemporary images.
 * No newspaper pics found, but added an BSA uniform and newsboy photos.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  •


 * Allow me to make an argument against the infobox. Infoboxes are supposed to give a snapshot of the article, are they not? However, this one (like many biographical infoboxes) is misleading. Note, that it lists his religious beliefs but not his contribution to Scouting. It is just not clear to me why this box needs to be here. The lead does an excellent job of summarizing the article while the box misleads the reader.
 * Added to the infobox. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 02:08, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I hope these suggestions are helpful. Awadewit (talk) 21:58, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * This is hopeless. I just wasted the last few months. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 01:23, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Hardly - you have done one whole chunk of really difficult work - you have done research and assembled the material that needs to go into the article. Now, we need to refine. Awadewit (talk) 01:35, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * William Hanna and Joseph Barbera are set up this way, so why is it okay there and not here? (the topical organization is the same in all three). Feel free to refine. I'm tired of this. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 01:39, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Peerreviewer script output
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question. You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks,  Wim van Dorst  (talk)  23:49, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Consider adding more links to the article; per Manual of Style (links) and Build the web, create links to relevant articles.[?]
 * Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), when doing conversions, please use standard abbreviations: for example, miles -> mi, kilometers squared -> km2, and pounds -> lb.[?]
 * Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.[?]

Newspaper 'man'
'Man' sounds a bit trite – how about 'owner'? Parrot of Doom (talk) 11:19, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * That is the term used during Boyce's milieu and is used in his biographies. The William Randolph Hearst article uses magnate. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 12:32, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

no discussion?
presumably because article = shit boring

why does is say "London, England"? As opposed to London, France? Anyways the country is called something like "United Kingdom" or "Great Britain"

I look forward to more computer games / episodes of House next week Mr Poechalkdust (talk) 06:27, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * As opposed to London, Ohio and London, Ontario, both of which are if anything more likely to have been visited by someone who went to school in Ohio before settling in Canada. – iride  scent  11:44, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I always archive old discussions before an article appears on the main page— there is a tendency for folks to add comments in the middle of old discussions and it is confusing to keep track. If there is something from an archived discussion to bring up, it is best to start afresh. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 12:35, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Postal service
AS I recall, the postal service was called the Post Office until about the end of the Vietnam War. Then, they tried to make the office a business supported by its customers and even changed its name. As a result of less support from the mint, the price of stamps went up from six cents to what it is today. --Chuck Marean 18:27, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * THen change it to post office, not a big deal. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 19:03, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * According to United States Postal Service, it was the United States Post Office Department until it became the United States Postal Service in 1971. Fixed. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 19:13, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Place of birth
A change in the lead made me look at Petterchak to check this.


 * We had Plum, Pennsylvania piped to Plum Township, Pennsylvania in the lead and Plum Township, Pennsylvania in the body
 * Plum Township, Pennsylvania redirects to Plum Township, Venango County, Pennsylvania
 * Plum, Pennsylvania is in Allegheny County and is locally known as Plum Borough
 * Petterchak states that Boyce was born in New Texas, now known as Plum Borough

So— Boyce was born in New Texas, now Plum Borough. I have changed this in the body and in the lead, I changed it to Allegheny County, Pennsylvania.


 * Someone added "a suburb of Pittsburgh" to the lead and added Category:People from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania; perhaps Plum is now a suburb, but I highly doubt it was considered so in 1858.

---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 15:15, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Seperation from the BSA
Per Rowan, p.20, Robinson stopped promoting Boyce's relationship to the BSA because of rumors in connection with Boyce's recent divorce— this appears to be one of the issues that caused Boyce to leave. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 13:52, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Works
In looking for Boyce books, I've come across a POD repro of a book on the Philippines called "The Philippine Islands". No data on original date or if it had a more complete title (like "Illustrated Philippine Islands" or the like. Anyone have more data before we add it to the list??  ---emb021  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.188.33.26 (talk) 19:26, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok. Checked the Fisk & Bearce work on Scouting Literature.  The Philippines book is real.  Also, I was a little confused with some of the Boyce works being offered by various POD publishers.  There is one work ("United States Colonies & Dependencies") that was offered in 4 volumes (Alaska, Hawaii, Philippines, and US Dependencies).  Not sure if they were originally offered in a single volume.  Some POD publishers are offering both USC&D and USD as separate works.  So I fixed up the bibliography to better show this. ---emb021.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.188.33.25 (talk) 15:18, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

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Tags
this is a Featured article. Can you be a little more specific with your tags (more sources, tone)? Please tag unsourced content with inline citation needed tags since there is no obvious article wide problem. Can you also elaborate on what seems to be the problem with tone and what parts of the article it concerns? Thanks. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:46, 11 May 2018 (UTC)