Talk:William Duer (Continental congressman)

Untitled
Interesting "Duer was part of a conspiracy of equally avaricious aristocrats. Like all those who would follow them in the centuries to come, they were way over extended and crashed. New Yorkers were so outraged at their behavior that they chased Duer through the streets, nearly disemboweled him until he was arrested and taken to debtor's prison where he died in 1799."
 * Aristocrats is a bit much; but he was a High Federalist. We should mention his connection with Clive, and with Schuyler, and above all his office as first Assistant Secretary of the Treasury. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:12, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was no consensus. PeterSymonds (talk)  00:31, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

William Duer covers this man, his son (William Alexander Duer, which is disambiguated) and his grandson, briefly a Congressman. I believe this Duer is primary usage, as membet of the Continental Congress and first Assistant Secretary of the Treasury; we should move him to William Duer instead of the current unclear parenthetical dab (I think delegate is supposed to mean delegate to the Continental Congress), and move William Duer to William Duer (disambiguation). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:12, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Survey

 * Support as nom. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:12, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose As this involves 3 people, all from the same family, all being involved in American politics and law, having a disambiguation page, at William Duer, with clear biographies, seems the best solution. William Duer (delegate) has alreay been moved from William Duer (1747-1799), I don't see that moving it again to William Duer will aid anyone trying to find a particular person. Tassedethe (talk) 22:29, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * This William Duer is much better known than his grandson; the grandfather and William Alexander Duer, the father, are both in American National Biography; the grandson is not. We have plenty of incoming links here, not all from the template; the grandson has none but his immediate family and the minimal links that any Congressman must have. Having checked them, I also see that they are prone to error; links which should go to the other two are dabbed erroneously to the grandson. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:17, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose for several reasons.  (1) I am unconvinced that 80% of readers searching for William Duer will want the Continental Congressman, which is the rock-bottom requirement for any utility.  For that matter, I'm not sure that any of them are well-known enough to make the argument.  (2) There is a non-trivial risk of confusion by readers.  Many Americans have a view of history that resembles the New Yorker's map of the country: there is great confusion of dates about anything older than living memory.  (3) If a careless editor links to the "primary" William Duer, meaning William Alexander Duer, it will never be detected by a bot and may cause genuine perplexity by even a reader with a strong general background.  (4) I think that for bios, a disambiguation page with one or two sentence capsule biographies makes Wikipedia better.  Robert A.West (Talk) 13:15, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Discussion
At the least, the disambiguation should be changed. Calling him delegate because he was a member of the Continental Congress is willful obscurity; nor is it what he was best known for (that would be the Assistant Secretaryship). Any of the following would be preferable:
 * (Continental Congress), since (Congressman) does not distinguish.
 * (Assistant Secretary)
 * (Treasury)
 * (Federalist); his grandson was a Whig. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this, especially since dates are deprecated as disambiguation text. I propose disambiguating as follows:
 * William Duer (Continental Congress). Retain the redirect thereby created.
 * William Alexander Duer. Add a redirect from William Duer (jurist) and William Duer (Columbia University), since an editor attempting a link could try either one.
 * William Duer (U.S. Congressman). Leave the deprecated disambiguation as a redirect.

I'll put a note on the third William Duer page. Robert A.West (Talk) 13:26, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Actally, I was just bold and moved the grandson's page as I suggested above. That, at least, seems uncontroversial. Robert A.West (Talk) 17:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

No consensus
It seems clear that there is no consensus for the proposed move to Wlliam Duer. I have removed the tag.
 * Probably not, but an admin might as well do that, and possibly impose a change of parenthetical. I would agree with Continental Congressman. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:14, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * We can change the parenthetical ourselves, just not while an RM is pending. Robert A.West (Talk) 18:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

First insider trader
A section can be added about the insider trade act.

Few references:


 * http://archive.fortune.com/galleries/2010/fortune/1005/gallery.dumbest_insider_trades.fortune/8.html
 * https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2017/04/05/the-man-behind-the-panic-of-1792-and-the-first-wall-street-insider/
 * http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2005/06/02/DI2005060201513.html?noredirect=on

Baijum81 (talk) 12:28, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Devon
Do we know where in Devon he was born? 2A00:23C4:6C0C:A900:C913:4388:A7DE:6516 (talk) 10:15, 25 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Duer was born in Devonshire, England. Source: Biographical Directory of the U.S. Congress. Allreet (talk) 17:29, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Dispute Founding Father claim
@User:Randy Kryn: William Duer is considered a Founding Father by whom? Since you didn't add a citation, we have no way of telling. So please apply one so we can discuss what your source is and then what other sources have to say. Allreet (talk) 10:16, 2 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Having signed the Articles of Confederation, Duer is considered a founding father. Thus, I removed the disputed template. Allreet (talk) 17:06, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Duer...an attorney?
As best as I've been able to determine, Duer was not an attorney. His U.S. Congress bio provides no indication that he studied or practiced law, nor does any other source that I could find. What's confusing the issue is the fact that Duer had been appointed a justice of the peace and later served as a judge. It should be noted that many justices of the peace are not attorneys so his appointment as a judge could be a similar case.

Thus, without any sources to back up the use of "attorney" in the lede sentence, I've replaced it with "jurist". If anyone finds any source to further clarify the issue, I would appreciate it. Allreet (talk) 18:24, 22 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Immediately after posting this, I accessed King of the Alley on Google Books, which covers Duer's financial dealings. The book indicates Duer's appointment to the courts was based on his status as a landowner. That would explain how he became a jurist without being an attorney, though it doesn't entirely rule out the possibility. Allreet (talk) 18:28, 22 August 2022 (UTC)


 * In the Revolutionary era and immediately afterwards, most lawyers had been trained in England or by English lawyers, so they were untrusted and many were disbarred. As a result, it was pretty typical for non-lawyers to serve as judges until a new crop of non-English lawyers came along. In Vermont, the voters created (and still maintain) the position of assistant judge -- two per county. They are allowed to sit in family court and civil court, and act as triers of fact, while the presiding judge acts as the trier of the law. The side judges are supposed to keep an eye on the presiding judge.


 * Judges in Vermont I can think of off the top of my head who were not attorneys include Daniel Peaslee, Jacob Bayley, John Strong, Theophilus Harrington, Paul Brigham, Moses Robinson, John Shepardson, John Fassett Jr., Thomas Chandler Jr., John Throop, Paul Spooner, Increase Moseley, and Luke Knowlton. I'm sure there are others. I hope this helps. Billmckern (talk) 20:49, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the additional details. Really? You know these Vermont judges that well? And yes, the background you've provided does help. What you indicated also fits with the fact that Duer's first experience on the bench was filling in for the presiding judge.
 * Duer's father was an attorney so he may have received tutoring from him, but there's no source indicating he was ever admitted to the bar or practiced - the business of making money being his sole concern. I was also basing part of what I said on a founder I'm very familiar with, George Taylor. Taylor managed iron foundries, had no educational background per se and through his political connections acquired as an ironmaster, was appointed justice of the peace in two Pennsylvania counties.
 * Beyond all this, Duer comes off as the least admirable of all the founders not only for his role in the Panic of 1792 but for cashing in at every opportunity from the early 1770s through his demise. Allreet (talk) 21:32, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Namespace changes to "(U.S. Founder)"
Hello,

Been following this thread for a bit. Any reason why we prefer the description "(U.S. Founder)" in the namespace?? I get that being on the Articles of Confederation means you are a "founding father", but I think "U.S. Founder" is a poor and obtrusive way to point this out. We don't say "George Washington (U.S. Founder)" or "Samuel Adams (U.S. Founder)" for their pages; I personally would prefer "William Duer (politician)" or, as was, "William Duer (Continential congressman)".

Some other page changes that happened this morning, include:
 * Andrew Adams (politician) -> Andrew Adams (U.S. Founder)
 * John Collins (Continental Congress) -> John Collins (U.S. Founding Father) -> John Collins (U.S. Founder)

It seems the user making these changes was just blocked for using multiple accounts. So, just trying to gain consensus on whether to revert or produce a standard (well, at least a standard for these 3). --Engineerchange (talk) 13:34, 23 August 2022 (UTC)