Talk:William Gregory (lord mayor)

Requested move 20 June 2019

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Not moved. There is consensus against the proposed moves. I will, however, lower-case the "lord mayor" disambiguator, per recent RM at Talk:Lord mayor &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 10:54, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

– The capitalized partial title "Lord Mayor" is strange as a disambiguation term – we tend not to use political role titles as disambiguators, and this is only a partial title and yet is capitalized. Per a comment made by Necrothesp in an RM discussion now at Talk:James Esdaile (mayor) and a similar comment at Talk:John Norman (mayor, fl. 1250) regarding the article now at John Norman (draper), lord mayors of London were generally people who were primarily notable as businessmen. In these cases, their business trades are identified in the articles about them. This RM is similar to the one at Talk:George Whitmore (haberdasher). —BarrelProof (talk) 02:56, 20 June 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. —  Newslinger  talk   08:12, 27 June 2019 (UTC)  --Relisting.  Steel1943  (talk) 23:46, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
 * William Gregory (Lord Mayor) → William Gregory (skinner)
 * John Lawrence (Lord Mayor) → John Lawrence (haberdasher)
 * John Kendrick (Lord Mayor) → John Kendrick (grocer)
 * David Lewis (Lord Mayor) → David Lewis (solicitor)
 * Martin Lumley (Lord Mayor) → Martin Lumley (draper)
 * Thomas Bennett (Lord Mayor) → Thomas Bennett (merchant)
 * Edmund Wright (Lord Mayor) → Edmund Wright (merchant)
 * The titles you put in brackets are the names of the Livery companies to which the Lord Mayor belonged, and are not necessarily the persons occupations. It is potentially misleading to use them, whereas Lord Mayor is precise and well understood. It is not helpful to mess around with article names in this way, unless you have a particular interest or knowledge of the subject matter.Motmit (talk) 05:55, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
 * While it is true that in modern times, the livery companies have become less strongly associated with their specific trades, and most of these people were from an earlier period of history when a strong association did exist. For example, William Gregory was Lord Mayor of London from 1451 to 1452. All of these people were Lord Mayor of London before 1700, except David Lewis. David Lewis is a recent Lord Mayor of London, but his identified occupation is not associated with a livery company. —BarrelProof (talk) 20:08, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
 * comment: Why would we not simply use (mayor) for all? -- Netoholic @ 06:36, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that being a Lord Mayor of London is generally not a defining role. Please see the remarks in an RM discussion at Talk:John Norman, Mayor of London (1250). It has been remarked that being Lord Mayor of London should not be considered the primary characteristic of someone if their profession is known – since that designation was considered a relatively minor honorific post bestowed on people who were already prominent/notable for other reasons. Someone is given that title because they are already notable in their profession. —BarrelProof (talk) 20:28, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Its the defining role for why they have a Wikipedia article. Move all to (mayor). -- Netoholic @ 09:24, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I support moving from "Lord Mayor" but not as proposed. I suggest William Gregory (politician).jamacfarlane (talk) 18:09, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
 * According to a comment made by Necrothesp on 20 May 2019, at Talk:Thomas Wright (Lord Mayor), politician' isn't really the right disambiguator for a Lord Mayor of London". The same editor made a similar comment on 21 May 2019 at Talk:James Esdaile (lord mayor), "Lord Mayors of London are generally not really politicians, but businessmen," and another editor agreed. William Gregory had no identified role in politics. —BarrelProof (talk) 20:02, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Support all, or use "(merchant)" for all except Lewis. No, these people were not politicians and in the days most of these gentlemen were Lord Mayor the members of Livery Companies generally practised the appropriate profession, although "merchant" is appropriate to all of them. David Lewis is far better identified as a solicitor, his actual profession. -- Necrothesp (talk) 07:28, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose all per WP:NCPDAB: "If possible, limit the tag to a single, recognizable and highly applicable term. Hint: It will usually be the singular form of the main word in the name of the category that best describes what the subject is notable for." That is Lord Mayor for all these, not merchant (or skinner, haberdasher and so forth). ("Mayor" would do if it were not already in use for other articles, e.g. William Gregory (mayor).) For purposes of a reader looking to identify an article quickly, "Lord Mayor" is the most easily identifiable term. UserBarrelProof's assertion above that "being a Lord Mayor of London is generally not a defining role" is extraordinarily wrong. Ingratis (talk) 12:04, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment - and previous moves along these lines should be reverted.Ingratis (talk) 12:04, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose all per WP:NCPDAB: broadly agree with Ingratis, except that "mayor" is the right general solution here (we shouldn't be driven by one special case). Jonathan A Jones (talk) 08:54, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose all. I confess I have only looked at the first but that was enough. There is no way that (skinner) is recognisable; Those looking for this person are looking for a Lord Mayor, and most would have no idea that he was also a skinner. Andrewa (talk) 00:03, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Question for BP: how did you infer "we tend to not use political role titles as disambiguation terms"? Is there a relevant guideline?  I don't think these alternative disambiguators are better.  Maybe (Lord Mayor of London) would be better? Dicklyon (talk) 04:52, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The idea that we prefer not to use role-specific titles has come up in various RMs. I recall that mostly for politicians. A guideline is WP:NCPDAB: "In most cases, these nouns are standard, commonly used tags such as "(musician)" and "(politician)". If possible, avoid using abbreviations or anything capitalized or containing hyphens, dashes, or numbers (apart from instances where more specific guidelines specify particular exceptions). If possible, limit the tag to a single, recognizable and highly applicable term." (boldface added by me for emphasis) Thus, "(politician)" is generally preferred over something such as "(senator)" or "(mayor)", and "(musician)" is generally preferred over something such as "(drummer)" or "(trombonist)", unless there are multiple politicians/musicians that fit the description. For lord mayors of London, most of them were not really politicians but rather were merchants or tradesmen of some sort, so "(politician)" is not accurate (according to comments made in various RMs, e.g., by Necrothesp). —BarrelProof (talk) 05:07, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose: I think Ingratis summed it up admirably. Opera hat (talk) 16:32, 11 July 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.