Talk:William Rowan Hamilton/Archive 1

Whew, work needed!
There is a vast amount of info here, but it's written in very archaic language at times, and badly needs re-writing to be more readable and clearer. I would guess vast ammounts have simply been pasted in from the 1911 volume or another old-fashoned article.

I'll try to do some of it, probably won't have time for it all though... --Paulc1001 10:28, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Copyright violation? Maybe.
This article has quite a lot in common with this: The writing seems dated, so perhaps they're both copies of a public domain source, but this should be investigated.--Malcohol 10:56, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
 * http://www.nndb.com/people/951/000101648/
 * It's okay! User:Reddi took most of the content from the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica, which is now public domain. Phew!--Malcohol 10:18, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Two Musings

 * 1) In the "Mathematical studies" section, mention is made of the biographer of another great mathematician. I wonder who the mathematician and the biographer were?
 * 2) Is it possible to include any information on his alcoholism without seeming to be influenced by the common prejudice about his Irish environment?Lestrade 16:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)Lestrade

Catherine Disney
Surely there should be some reference to Catherine Disney his first love. She had a huge influence throughout his life despite never marrying her. Bubya 10:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Early life: anyone want to adopt a lawyer?
"A child prodigy, Archibald Hamilton was the father of William Hamilton, he was a solicitor, in Dublin at 36 Dominick Street, but was later put up for adoption." This is slightly absurd and needs rewording. As it is it says that which may be of interest to those who want to study why Archibald Hamilton was put up for adoption after he was already grown up enough to be a solicitor. But it either doesn't say much about William or else (more likely) attributes to Archibald some facts about William (being a prodigy and being put up for adoption). Felsenst (talk) 23:13, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Archibald Hamilton was a child prodigy
 * 2) Archibald Hamilton was the father of William Hamilton (that's OK)
 * 3) Archibald Hamilton was a solicitor (OK too)
 * 4) later, Archibald Hamilton was put up for adoption

Removed note "AnyoneBornAndLivingInTheUKIsBritish"
I removed the following note of above name by User:Seanwal111111, containing:
 * Hamilton lived for most of his life in Ireland and said he loved Ireland but considered himself British. In June 1855 he wrote: "My heart still throbs with sympathy for that great British Empire to which, from childhood, I have been accustomed to consider myself as belonging as to my country" (quoted on page 26 of Life of Sir William Rowan Hamilton, Volume Three, downloadable at Archive.org). Throughout his lifetime, Britain and Ireland were united as one country and Hamilton was intellectually and politically, as well as legally, a person of that country. He also expressed his cultural estrangement from the Catholic majority in Ireland: See e.g. pages 103 and 481 of Life of Sir William Rowan Hamilton, Volume Two

This because it is not neutral and inaccurate (since the claims are not backed up by the references added to support them):


 * 1) Hamilton lived in, what was then, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The first quote continues with: "...as belonging as to my country—though Ireland, as Ireland has always been the object of my love—and, I think you will admit, of my exertions." (italics as used by Graves in "Life of Sir William Rowan Hamilton").
 * In this quote Hamilton is explicitly saying Britain is his country, though he loves Ireland. If we're agreed about that we're agreed that he's saying that Britain is his country. We also know very well from elsewhere that Hamilton's politics were strongly Unionist, right? Most Irish Unionists, and Hamilton was no excepttion, identified their nationality as "British" first and foremost, not "Irish". Hamilton's self-identification as a British is one of the main bases for labeling him British at Wikipedia.


 * 1) Page 103 of Volume II of his biography by Graves, is about politics. Hamilton joined the Conservatives, and says: "...My joining the Conservatives may, as you say, do no good, but seemed to me my duty. As to the good which they can do, I can only say that many despised the small beginnings of the Catholic Association, and that since agitation, and combination, and popular excitement, have done what I think so much harm, it is time to try whether they cannot be made to do a little good in turn..." So nothing about "...his cultural estrangement from the Catholic majority in Ireland" as claimed in the note.
 * The Catholic Association represented the Catholic majority in Ireland and represented a set of values (political and cultural) that Hamilton entirely disagreed with. As he says in the above quote, the organization and agitation on behalf of those values "have done what I think so much harm". It's an instance of his own words expressing his estrangement from Catholic values. You appear to be suggesting that Hamilton wasn't estranged from the values of the Catholic Association, yet you are providing no evidence to support your contention. It's now incumbent on you to come up with some such evidence (I believe, though, that you will find none). However, on thinking about this, I'd now like to delete "cultural estrangement" and replace it with "political estrangement" or, better, simply "estrangement".


 * 1) Page 481 is a letter from Hamilton to Rev. George Montgomery, with whom he was befriended and who switched to the Roman Catholic Church: "I had some intimation before, but hoped that it might not be quite accurate, of what you rightly judged would grieve me. It has, indeed, caused me the most exquisite pain, though it has not diminished my respect or affection for yourself. Our intimacy, as you foresee, is likely, or rather certain, to be impaired ; it has been one of the greatest pleasures of my life, and I believe that you have been good enough to regard it as not disagreeable to you; but neither of us could desire, under the circumstances you mention, that it should continue such as it has been. Indeed, a decided diversity of religious sentiments can scarcely co-exist with real and cordial intimacy ; and, while I acknowledge and feel my great inferiority to you in all theological learning, and am sure that you might entirely vanquish me in argument, I must own that we have been of late receding from each other — a Romeward tendency in some, producing always a Protestant reaction in others." So again not backing up the claims.
 * I can see no way to interpret the above words other than that Hamilton felt estranged from Roman Catholics. Once again, I'd like to replace "cultural estrangement" with the subtly vaguer and more comprehensive "estrangement".

Further the inclusion of this British wikilink is not very helpful.
 * I've said already that Irish Unionists had no remorse about labelling themselves British. I see nothing unhelpful or dishonorable about labelling the man with the label he'd use himself.


 * Statement: Throughout his lifetime, Britain and Ireland were united as one country and Hamilton was intellectually and politically, as well as legally, a person of that country. Crowsnest, do you disagree with that statement? If so, on what specific grounds? If you're unsure whether you can agree with it or not, do you think more support for it from Hamilton's words in the three volume Life of Hamilton by Graves is required? If so, please tell me why. You haven't told me what your problem is here.Seanwal111111 (talk) 21:34, 15 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Here's a modern analogy you may find helpful if you're unfamiliar with 19th century Irish Unionism. A Canadian Unionist person living in Quebec today sees himself as Canadian first and foremost, and only secondarily Quebecois (or Quebecian). If 150 years from now, Quebec has become another country it'd be an anachronism to declare this person Quebecois. (Whereas others living in Quebec today are Quebecois first and can be fairly called Quebecois 150 years hence). Analogously Irish Unionists 150 years ago saw themselves as British first and foremost and Irish only secondarily -- Ireland was a region within their country. Seanwal111111 (talk) 14:31, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Pointing out the links to "Life of Sir William Rowan Hamilton" of Graves on archive.org is very relevant, and I added these to the references. -- Crowsnest (talk) 11:19, 15 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I am personally not interested whether Hamilton was British or Irish. My interest is with Hamilton as a physicist and mathematician. But I see from your addition to the article, and from your responses above, that yours are different. But I am concerned with obtaining a neutral article, just to prevent the kind of dispute you are trying to start. As far as I can see, stating his nationality as being "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" is more precise and neutral than labelling it as "British". And using "Irish physicist, astronomer, and mathematician" with "Irish" wikilinked to the island Ireland is also correct and precise: that is where he lived. -- Crowsnest (talk) 09:44, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * As we see above, you haven't given any rebuttal to what I assert is neutral fact, namely Hamilton was intellectually and politically, as well as legally, a British national. But one route to further neutrality here is to state in the opening sentence of the article that he was "a physicist...", and do not say he was "a British physicist...." nor "an Irish physicist....". As you know, at the foot of the page, in the category section, he's categorized as "a British physicist" and also as "an Irish physicist". I consider that unobjectionable. In the info box on the righthand side near the top he's nationality is "UK of GB & Irl", which is acceptable to me. It is quite unnecessary to put a statement in the first sentence that he's British (or Irish) because it's covered elsewhere on the page, and anyway his nationality is fundamentally unimportant and irrelevant to anyone who's interested in his mathematics and physics. I think the habit of mentioning a scientist's nationality upfront in the very first sentence, as if it was something important about the scientist, has been inherited from using the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, and I think it should be deprecated. You appear to agree with me when you say "I am personally not interested whether Hamilton was British or Irish." We can thus resolve our dispute. 23:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.147.180.169 (talk)


 * I agree that "Irish" may be as confusing as "British", since it is not visible that it is linked to the island Ireland instead of the republic. So I agree with the removal of Irish in the 1st sentence. I suggest to remove it after one week, if no objections are raised against our present - two-person-based - consensus. -- Crowsnest (talk) 00:17, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Alcohol related?
Can someone tell me why this man is listed in the category "Alcohol related deaths in Ireland"? I find no mention of alcohol in the article. Freikorp (talk) 00:03, 5 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Never-mind, I've since looked through the references and added the information to the article. Freikorp (talk) 04:40, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

"United Kingdom" is incorrect designation
As far as I know, the "United Kingdom" was only created in 1927, long after Hamiltons death. Rbakels (talk) 22:00, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The United Kingdom was created in 1800, with the Acts of Union 1800. Jonchapple (talk) 21:47, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Consistency of Hamilton equation.

 * i^2 = j^2 = k^2 = -1
 * ijk = -1

squaring both sides
 * (i^2) (j^2) (k^2) = 1
 * (-1) (-1) (-1) = 1
 * -1 = 1

Found the error in above. The multiplication in H is not commutative; here is the proper way:
 * ijk = -1
 * ijkijk = (-1)(-1)
 * (-1)ijikjk = 1
 * (-1)(-1)iijkjk = 1
 * (-1)(-1)(-1)iijjkk = 1
 * (-1)(-1)(-1)(-1)(-1)(-1) = 1
 * 1 = 1

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.134.236.139 (talk) 01:23, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

First interest in mathematics
I've corrected the date of Hamilton's contest with Colburn, which was erroneously stated as 1818. Throughout 1818 Colburn was a student at Westminster School and was not exhibited. In fact Colburn visited Dublin three times. The first was in 1813 when he was exhibited as a calculating prodigy and when he first met Hamilton. The second was in 1820, by which time Colburn had stopped calculating (much to the dismay of Hamilton - they met again during this visit) and was now a touring actor. Finally in 1822 Colburn visited Dublin seeking investment for some venture. I've added a reference, which includes citations to Graves' work and to Colburn's memoirs. Captainwindy (talk) 20:12, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

SCOTTISH ORIGINS
Hamilton was Scottish in origin -- hence the two SCOTTISH family names Hamilton and Hutton. His biography states this quite clearly. And since the Scots are NOT Anglo-Saxon (they are Celtic) Hamilton should not be labeled as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.192.140 (talk) 18:47, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

The Hamilton family are not native to Scottish Lowlands; they had moved from England, like many in the Lowlands. Besides, the area was a part of Northumbria, which was an Anglo-Saxon kingdom. So yes, there's a good chance the Hamiltons are actually English in origin. Sorry to shatter the Celtic Pride parade. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.176.124.64 (talk) 17:26, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Plagiarism
An entire paragraph has been copied verbatim from John Baez's article "Octonions" - The material is interesting and significant, but this source must be cited and the content referenced as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.27.33.65 (talk) 13:45, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Competition against Zerah Colburn
My source, Math & Mathematicians: The History of Math Discoveries Around the World (ISBN 0-7876-3813-7) states that the competition between William Rowan Hamilton and Zerah Colburn occurred in 1818 when Hamilton was 13. Is that correct? Thank you, Vincentupsdellred (talk) 17:27, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Alternative version of article
The article below seems not to belong on a "talk" page but to be simply an alternative version of a subject article. While it might make sense to merge those things that aren't already in the referenced article into that one, why was this put here? - BRG 16:35, 7 Nov 2003 (UTC)


 * The article below is the chapter on Hamilton from: Alexander Macfarlane, Lectures on ten British mathematicians of the nineteenth century, 1916, pp 34-49. Internet Archive: Lectures on ten British mathematicians. It should indeed not be repeated here. Perhaps it could be added as a reference in the article since Macfarlane seems to have been one of the first to leave the suggestion that later in life Hamilton had become an alcoholic, even without literally saying that, see p. 46 of Macfarlane's chapter. VWA (talk) 22:51, 20 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I have deleted the copy from Macfarlane's chapter since it can be read on the Internet Archive using the link given above. VWA (talk) 15:18, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Mathematician
Although Hamilton had of course a huge influence on physics, he was a mathematician and without exception referred to his own work as mathematics. VWA (talk) 08:28, 10 January 2018 (UTC)


 * I changed it into: mathematician, astronomer and mathematical physicist. That in his days Hamilton was certainly also seen as an astronomer can for instance be seen by this quote from the second volume of Graves' biography, regarding the 1842 meeting of the British Association in Manchester: "The Athenaeum mentions that peculiar interest was excited by the presence of the three great astronomers, Bessel, Herschel, and Hamilton, who were seen seated together on the platform." https://archive.org/stream/lifeofsirwilliam02grav#page/386/mode/2up VWA (talk) 23:40, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Personal life
The new entry (Dec 2017) on Hamilton's private life needs editing. Hamilton was not rejected by Catherine Disney and he certainly did not propose to Aubrey de Vere. Moreover, the entry comes from one source which does not seem to claim to be an original biographic one. I cannot cite from our own work in which we give a far more positive view on the private lives of Hamilton and his wife and discuss where this extremely negative view came from, https://doi.org/10.1080/17498430.2017.1400821, and therefore I would like to ask someone who thinks we have a point, or not, to consider editing this entry. VWA (talk) 22:28, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Reply
Please see the edit request template box above for more information about your request. Regards,  Spintendo  ᔦᔭ   22:54, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Quaternions
In the article Quaternion it is stated about Olinde Rodrigues and the discovery of the quaternions: "Important precursors to this work included Euler's four-square identity (1748) and Olinde Rodrigues' parameterization of general rotations by four parameters (1840), but neither of these writers treated the four-parameter rotations as an algebra.[7][8] Carl Friedrich Gauss had also discovered quaternions in 1819, but this work was not published until 1900.[9][10]" That seems to me much more nuanced than the remark in this article: "The other great contribution Hamilton made to mathematical science was his discovery of quaternions in 1843.[12] However, in 1840, Benjamin Olinde Rodrigues had already reached a result that amounted to their discovery in all but name.[13]" Since I am not a mathematician I will not alter the text, but give the comparison for consideration. VWA (talk) 12:52, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

=== Hello,

Apologies, as I don't understand how to edit wiki talk articles, but I wanted to add my opinion here.

I was reading the "Personal Life" section, and I read this: "Hamilton's married life turned out to be difficult and unhappy as Bayly proved to be pious, shy, timid, and chronically ill."

My own personal feelings is that this too subjective to be in an encyclopedia, especially since the article referenced is focused mainly on mathematics, and not personal love lifes.

I felt a little bad for hamilton, here, and I feel that characterizing his marriage as "unhappy" goes too far.

Thanks, please discuss. -Ordy~

Nationality
For the entire duration of his life Ireland was part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and therefore it should be made clear that this citizenship was that of a UK national even if his ethnicity was Irish, if in fact it was. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.76.230.249 (talk) 18:28, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Major edit
It seems that there are numerous reasons for which the article needs attention. I'm putting some time currently into rewriting the explanation of his work, but in fact the past additions to the article mean that the whole thing needs a clearer structure. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:47, 30 May 2022 (UTC)