Talk:William S. Burroughs/Archive 1

Hollywood
Removed reference to Ridley Scott buying rights to title 'Bladerunner' from Burroughs. Scott purchased title from Alan Nourse who wrote an earlier novel with that title.
 * Isn't Burroughs thanked during the closing credits of the film? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 02:10, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
 * And can you provide a source for this information as there are numerous reference works on Burroughs that indicate the title came from him, not from Nourse. I'm reverting however will added a note indicating this is disputed. PS. this site indicates that it was specifically a copy of the Burroughs book (which was based upon Nourse's novel) that inspired Scott to name his film Blade Runner. 23skidoo 02:12, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Has this been restored, because I cannot find it. It should be listed under the Hollywood section, which needs to be rewritten just in general.  The title for the Ridley Scott film came from the Burroughs book "Blade Runner: A Movie", which was based on the novel by Nourse.  I believe, if memory serves correctly, they were paid $20,000 for the title.--Charles 18:37, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Hassan i Sabbah quote
"Nothing is true. Everything is permitted." (this is Bill quoting the final words of Hassan i Sabbah)
 * I doubt that. Burroughs/Gysin made up quotes and attributed to others (the entirely fictional Doktor Kurt Unruh von Steinplatz for example is quoted with many sayings), this one may just as well be made up. Do you have a real source reference that ties this quote to the real Hassan and not the fictional one appearing in Burroughs' prose?
 * Actually I think it looks more like a paraphrase of Aleister Crowley's famous quote "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law". Nixdorf 13:31, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
 * This quote should be restored, though I do not know where it was originally. The quote has been attributed to Sabbah by a number of authors, and Burroughs was not the first or the only one to quote it.  It was of great importance to WSB, and deserves a place in the article.--Charles 05:02, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Very much agreed. For WSB it was almost a catchphrase, however the quote is genuine and has been attributed to Hassan in a number of sources. 23skidoo 12:20, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Can you restore it? I do not know where it was, and cannot find it in the history.--Charles 16:27, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanksgiving Prayer
And now I've removed this:


 * Most famous for his 'Thanksgiving Prayer' and the verse "Kill a Queer for Christ".


 * Because, well, he isn't - if he's "most famous" for anything, it's probably Naked Lunch. Besides which, "Thanks for 'Kill a Queer for Christ' stickers" is a line in "Thanksgiving Prayer", not a separate piece (and yes, he was being ironic, just in case anybody thinks all those drugs made him go a bit funny in his old age...). I suppose the Prayer could be mentioned somewhere in the article, but I could't see a simple way to fit it in, so I've just taken it out -


 * I don't think it's a great loss, because it's really quite obscure as far as I'm aware (I'm not sure it's even been published in print, it was just a track on his Dead City Radio record, I think). --Camembert


 * "Thanksgiving Prayer" is included in the Burroughs short-story collection, Tornado Alley. 23skidoo 00:05, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * You can read "Thanksgiving Prayer" in this webpage: http://www.inter-zone.org/thanks.html


 * "Thanksgiving Prayer" can be heard on the album "Dead City Radio," and you can watch the video on YouTube at this address: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Z_08o108E --Charles 16:26, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Removed - where he lived for the next twenty-four years as it is completely false. Burroughs lived in Paris, the UK and New York AS WELL as in Tangiers during the aforementioned period (1952-1976). vudu 20:02, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)

--Markhadman 14:16, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC) Added 'Word Virus' to the bibliography since it contains previously unpublished material. Added some notes about Junky/Junkie that could be tidier - not clear which edition the ISBN refers to.

also...

It's 'Naked Lunch', not 'The Naked Lunch'. The latter (correct me if I'm wrong) is the title of the film by David Cronenberg. If someone with more time and experience could move the page and all references?


 * Actually, I think they both lack a "The". I'll see about moving stuff around now. --Camembert


 * Done (more or less). --Camembert


 * If I'm not mistaken, the very first edition was entitled "The Naked Lunch", but I think all or most since have lacked the definitive article.

--Markhadman 17:17, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC) I'm considering revising and expanding this page. There are a few inconsistencies and errors that I've spotted, and I for one would like Wikipedia to contain more info on "The only American novelist who may conceivably be possessed by genius" (quote by Norman Mailer). Were he alive today, there's a fair chance that the old bugger'd be an enthusiastic Wikipedia user.

Who's up for helping? I'd rather have an edit war than go it alone.

The Definitive (?) article on The Definite Article
--Sstrong 06:40, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC) Well (deep breath) off the top of my head (without checking the massive WSB archive) this is how I understand it -

It depends where you are - It was 'The Naked Lunch' on first publication in Paris (by Maurice Girodias) - When Barney Rossett bought it for Grove Press, they suppressed the definite article and did some minor typo revisions and then appended 'Deposition' and 'postscript' to make the work more overtly anti-drugs. The dropping of the definite article may have been to obfuscate legal proceedings (Girodias claimed foreign language rights) or it may have been to frustrate customs authroities (who were wont to sort stop-lists with leading articles - a practice any librarian could've told them was dumb - could've but didn't!

Later, when John Calder put out [T]NL in the UK he used the article (I believe he always got on better with Girodias than Rossett, and that his edition was (originally at least) 'by arrangement').

When Cronenberg made his travesty of film (no worse than any of his others) he used the US title of the book in all territories inna kinda culture-imperialist stylee.

So what do we have : Film in all countries: NO article | Book in France: YES (but only in english language - french language editions drop it!) | Book in US : NO | Book in UK : YES |

quite simple really... more info in: Naked Lunch : The Restored Text (NY:Grove Weidenfeld, 2001)

Of course, the contents of the book have remained constant (front and end matter only being varied) - the next two of the 'paris' trilogy (The Soft Machine and Ticket significantly vary contents across editions, but keep constant titles).

So, a case can be made that: aside from his massive acknowledged influence on music, William Burroughs also invented remixology.

PS no endorsement of WSB should be assumed - I don't like the dude so much.

"A book so intense can only be adored or hated & no-one who reads it is ever the same again" - I'm concerned this is just an opinion of a single user, can we remove this line? --Greg Godwin 06:07, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I tried bringing the contributions added in that edit to a neutral point of view. What do you think of the text now?


 * Acegikmo1 13:29, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Much better. This line also bugs me = "His hobbies included guys". Is that a legitimate hobby :)? I'm sure the humourist in Burrough's would say so, but it doesn't quite read correctly.
 * --Greg Godwin 13:57, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, I don't think it's illegitimate. But I agree that it's not worded properly for an encyclopaedia.  Do you have any suggestion for improvement?


 * Acegikmo1 14:04, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Some Edits
--Modemx 19:04, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC) Added considerably more about Burroughs's drug rehabilitation as this was a major part of this life and work, deleting a line about him being on methadone his entire life, which I can find absolutely no reference to in any of my sources.

Added more about the sources of the Naked Lunch movie.

Added a bit more about the literary opinion regarding Naked Lunch, the novel.

Added a bit about the William Gibson influence.

Added a bit about the common criticisms of his work.

Added another note on a cameo in the recordings section.

Rorschach567's Headings I changed since New Orleans is not part of the American Southwest; it is part of the south, or deep south, and I think people outside of the U.S. may not understand what 'Southwest' means to people inside the U.S., namely the region of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, maybe California in some categories. --Mikerussell 04:04, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Wiki like a cut-up
The Wikipedia article on Burroughs looks a little like a Burroughs cut-up itself. Perhaps I'll take it on myself to improve it. Can I beg some feedback from people on the strong, weak, and missing aspects of the current article from your perspective? --Modemx 06:18, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Considering the multiple-user nature of Wikipedia, that's inevitable, especially when you have editors with different opinion (or knowledge) of how the English language works. I don't think you need to ask permission if you want to reorganize the article, as long as the facts stay in. I think the booklist could be divided into "short stories", "novels", and "autobiographical" sections, perhaps with the use of the prettytable function. 23skidoo 15:52, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * On that same vein:
 * "Burroughs and Kerouac got into trouble with the law for failing to report a murder."
 * That sounds fairly important. Can anyone expand on that a bit? --InShaneee 08:34, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I think there should be more references to Burrough's influences: Korzybski(sp?--Science and Sanity, Spengler, Celine, Denton Welch.Golden Eternity

Thanks, what do people think of removing or modifying the reference to the Kurt Kobain collaboration? I got the full recording of this session a while ago and it's not really what one would describe as a collaboration, its a forty-five minute chat between Burroughs and Cobain while Cobain jams on the guitar. There was no product of this conversation except for the recording itself as far as I can tell. Does anyone know better? --Modemx 20:38, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm not that familiar with it, but if it's more a conversation (I'm thinking like Daniel Odier's The Job) then it should be modified. The fact Burroughs and Cobain did collaborate on Priest they Called Him is worthy of a reference, though. 23skidoo 00:25, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Novel articles
For anyone interested, I've started a few stub articles on a number of Burroughs' books (see the booklist in the main article). Although I'm a fan I have to admit I'm not well versed enough to go into detail about plots, etc. for a few of them such as Dead Fingers Talk. I invite fans to check them out and expand the articles. I'll be starting more articles in due course, beginning with the novels, but also including some of the shorter works like Cat Inside, Tornado Alley, etc. (though please don't wait for me to do it if anyone wants to hop in!) 23skidoo 22:20, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Trivia
Am i the only one who thinks the 'trivia' is a little too trivial? Prometheus912 00:57, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Please sign your comments. I'm not a big fan of including information like height and weight but apparently it's done with a number of biographical articles. If someone were to delete it, I don't think it would be missed. 23skidoo 14:45, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Naked Lunch and Civil Rights
Are you sure Naked Lunch is the "only" Beat work that addresses the Civil Rights movement? I thought Howl did as well, along with some of Burroughs' later novels. 23skidoo 14:54, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Questioning Recent Edits
The old article was patchy, but the recent edits have condensed it to the point of obsurity. It was good to see some of the speculative and otherwise pointless sections removed, but now the reduction to 'just facts' as the editor has put it, has made all of the events of Burroughs life, and certain attributes of his work meaningless, because they go almost completely without a context. There was a lot to be said about the dodginess of the article beforehand, but I believe it gave a certain degree of depth to Burroughs writings, which can easily be misunderstood. Thus I think some integration of old and new is required - that is to say, a synthesis of the present one's structure with the older one's content, rather than a 'reversion'. Do I have any support on this? Prometheus912 08:52, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. My impression from reading the edit summaries on this is the editor felt it necessary to get the article below the 34K threshold which I have been told is not a Wikipedia policy. Also Wikipedia is not paper so we can go into more obscure details if we want. Due to the many, many edits made within a single day I was reluctant (but tempted) to revert back to the original, however as you suggest, many of the edits were good ones. So far all I have done is put back the image of the Junkie book cover. I oppose the deletion of the image of Joan because she is an important part of this article. I'm unlikely to have time myself to do a detailed comparison of the pre- and post-chop versions but anyone who wants to put in the effort has my support. 23skidoo 12:54, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I have gone ahead and put back a few things that were cut, such as the notes under the bibliography and discography and IMO the vital Influences section (though I did remove a bit of POV that had snuck in). I think we need to add back in more parts of the main biography and I hope to do that on the next pass. 23skidoo 14:54, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

The Burroughs Millions
Concerning the following from the section on his life: "Burroughs lived on a monthly trust account from his parents, and this provided him little need, or desire, to earn money." I saw an interview in which Burroughs claimed that this trust fund only existed in Kerouac's novels and not in reality.Well, is there any evidence besides these to support the claim?
 * It has been about 15 years since I read it, but I think Ted Morgan's biography of Burroughs also mentions the trust fund. 23skidoo 15:19, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I thought it was more like an allowance, in any case they doled out a certain amount each month. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:14, 27 November 2005 (UTC)


 * It is also mentioned Burroughs' own "Junkie," which was pretty straightforward autobiographical. -- Greg 21:30, 03 December 2005


 * He recieved a small trust fund from his grandfather's adding machine fortune for most of his life, but it was really more of a remittance. The biography "Gentleman Junkie" mentions it, and a lot of letters to Ginsberg have complaints about the meager sum. It was certainly not enough for him to live in the style he would prefer, and often he was near poverty through ill-advised drug spending. I'm going to change this if no one objects, since the implication is of limitless wealth. Burroughs' money making schemes just wouldn't seem as compelling.


 * After much searching, I finally found this reference in Ted Morgan's "Gentleman Junkie": "His parents, upon his graduation, had decided to give him a monthly allowance out of their earnings from Cobblestone Gardens, a tidy sum in those days. It was enough to keep him going, and indeed it guaranteed his survival for the next twenty-five years, arriving with welcome regularity.  The allowance was a ticket to freedom; it allowed him to live where he wanted to and to forgo employment." (p. 65)  As far as I am concerned, this puts to rest any question about the so-called "Burroughs millions"---which is a fantasy.  The allowance Burroughs received came from his parents' gift shop, and had nothing to do with his grandfather's company.--Charles 04:29, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Musical influence
Regarding the following statement:
 * "[Burroughs] is also popular with many hip-hop artists, as his cut-up technique was a forerunner of mixing and sampling."

This should specify which hip-hop artists name Burroughs and/or the cut-up technique as an influence, and a reference would be helpful as well. Otherwise, I'd consider this to be original research. See also Talk:Cut-up technique, particularly the Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite and Literacy of hiphoppers sections. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 02:24, 11 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I've removed the assertion, it's been a couple of weeks since I posted my previous comment. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 07:43, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Quote question
Does anyone know in which novel Burroughs writes "F--k 'em all, squares on both sides. I am the only complete man in the industry." ? I have a recording of him sayin this and he's reading from something, but I don't know what. Maybe Nova Express? It would be a great quote to cite here. 23skidoo 14:59, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Naked Lunch. & it is, properly quoted: "Fuck 'em all. Squares on both sides. I am the only complete man in the industry." LaC9187 11:12, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I knew that. I was just trying to be polite! ;) 23skidoo 17:10, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's from Naked Lunch, from the Bradley The Buyer sequence, a recording of which can be found on the CD Call Me Burroughs.--Charles 05:11, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Burroughs was quoted as inventing the term 'Heavy Metal' and influencing Throbbing Gristle, the first industrial band.

Master Addict?
I'm thinking of adding a short paragraph regarding drugs. That is, Burroughs' own use, his beliefs re the drug war, effects on those he was close with, etc. This is important for several reasons: 1) Burroughs' addiction to various chemicals greatly influenced his work. In fact, the theme of addiction ( to drugs, sex, control, etc.) is probably the single most prevalent theme, and is woven into the vast majority (all?) of his fictional work; 2) it is a topic that he wrote, and spoke about, exhaustively, and 3) there is nary a mention of it currently. My reticence, and the reason I am posting this to elicit discussion, comes from a reluctance to distract from his literary accomplishments by adding detail that is, by nature, sensational. However, since drugs are the fulcrum on which many of his personal battles, and fictional themes, turn, it seems odd to leave them out of the article. Thoughts?Levi P. 04:02, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Talk page cleanup
It seems to me, and obviously this is my own opinion, that this whole discussion page needs to be cleaned up. Proper formatting has not been followed, there are spelling and grammatical errors everywhere, many posts have no title, and 1/3rd of the posts are not signed. Some of the comments do not even make sense. A discussion page like this is simply not very helpful.--Charles 03:08, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

John Burroughs School
I think it should be noted whether Burroughs is related in any way to John Burroughs. I think he was but I can't put my finger on a source to support that. 23skidoo 19:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC) No relation. John Burroughs was a naturalist. Any of the WSB biographies clearly state "no relation".

Chaos magician?
I just noticed that Burroughs is listed under the category "Chaos magicians". While that sounds kind of cool, there is nothing in this article to support this (I checked the articles linked to the category and I couldn't find anything on this). If we're going to have such an odd category, there needs to be something in the article to support it, otherwise it should be removed. All we need is a single line and a source. 23skidoo 04:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)