Talk:William Wilberforce/Archive 1

old 2004 thread
Saint William Wilberforce is listed in Category:Saints!!! Wetman 02:34, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Actually, now in the Category:Anglican saints. John Carter 19:10, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Not sure what's happened here - the relacement of quotes with question marks looks like vandalism, but the re-write would indicate otherwise. Comments about style? Agendum 14:50, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Is it just me or the style of this article somewhat off? QwertyMIDX 22:24, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, it needs adjusting for NPOV.

Wilberforce and abolition of slavery
I have just realised that this article gives little or no detail on the most important part of Wiberforce's life and work - the fight for abollition of the slave trade. I hope to remedy this soon. There is a lot which needs to be included.

Am I right in thinking that this is yet another article that owes a lot to the 1911 Encyclopedia Brittanica? – Agendum 19:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)



Who is Clarkson? He's mentioned several times as providing the foundation on which Wilberforce built his position, but there is neither first name nor a link to him. Surely someone who provided the philosophical position and wrote the (?) original essay on abolition ought to be covered and linked to?

Largely rewritten article
I have attempted to give this important biography some of the detail it deserves. Thanks to those who have/are attempting to correct my mistakes and errors – and, hopefully bring this article up (at least) to GA status, which is my aspiration for a biography on such a significant person.

Any suggestions would be gratefully received. Meanwhile, I will seek further information and some relevant images (even if I have to go to Hull and take them myself), before going further and seeking peer assessment.

Cheers – Agendum 10:25, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Nice work! My only suggestion for improvement would be to change the references over to inline citations (see WP:GA? 2(b)), although I appreciate that it might be difficult in an article like this. Also, I will be in Hull over the Christmas period and could take some pictures for the article, if that would save you the trip? Ollie 15:30, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Ollie. I haven't used the inline referencing style in my articles yet, as it's a relatively new feature and (to be absolutely honest) I'm not really convinced of its necessity.... But, if I were to do so, do you recommend the Harvard referencing style or embedded links?


 * As regards Hull - yes, that would be great! I would really appreciate it, if you have time. I know there are a number of appropriate subjects, including the statue of Wilberforce and the museum (although a pic of that exists already in the article about the museum, you may be able to do better). – Agendum 16:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I usually use the footnotes style when I'm referencing, but in this case I think the Harvard system might be more appropriate. You might even want to combine the two - use footnotes for specific citations and the references section for more general sources. There is plenty of information at Citing sources to help you decide! Just use what you feel easiest really - The criteria for Good and Featured Articles don't insist on a particular style. Ollie 18:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Wiberforce's politics
I have dropped reference to Wilberforce being a Tory in the introductory line. The distinctions between British parliamentary parties were less obvious (and more flexible) in this period of the eighteenth century. At times he sided with the Whigs, although he would be more accurately described as a "Pittite". – Agendum 22:53, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Spelling
I hope you don't mind, but I'm about to revert to normal (British) English spelling, purely for the sake of consistency throughout this article.

It seems unnecessary to be quibbling about how to spell 'travelled' or 'recognised' in an aricle about such an important matters. I am quite willing to give way to U.S. English spelling in articles written by or about people from the U.S. Here, for the sake of consistency, I am reverting the edits by 88.110.193.85. No offence intended. – Agendum 21:21, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * See Manual_of_Style for guidlines on this. Ollie 21:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Image
I took a photo of the statue outside of Wilberforce House and have added it to the article. I'm not particularly pleased with it (the background is not brilliant), but unfortunately this is the only angle possible - the museum is closed to the public until March 2007. I'd advise anyone wanting to make an improvement on the image to wait until then! →Ollie (talk • contribs) 18:45, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I live round the corner from the former residence of William Wilberforce in Mill Hill. There is a 'blue plaque' on the house in which he lived. Would a photo of it be a useful addition to the article? It's not exactly of major importance to his life, so I realise that it might not fit in an encyclopaedic article. GilbertoSilvaFan 22:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC) PS. Good work Ollie - the picture is great. You are too critical of yourself ;-)


 * Sound's like a good idea to me, if its no trouble! →Ollie (talk • contribs) 23:30, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I have a photo of Wilberforce's statue in Westminster Abby which I took a few years ago. If you think it would be worth posting to the article I'd be happy to add it, but I'm afraid I'll need a little instruction in how to go about doing that. RFM57 21:50, 28 January 2007 (UTC)


 * That would be good. For information about uploading images to Wikipedia, take a look at Uploading images. You may want to consided uploading to Wikimedia Commons instead - that would allow the image to be used on any Wikimedia project. If you do decide to upload to Commons, you will need to go here, sign up for an account and then follow the uploading instructions at First steps. If you need any more help, don't hesitate to leave me a message on my talk page. →Ollie (talk • contribs) 01:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * A photo of the memorial has been added. Those who understand the conventions here better than I should feel free to amend or correct my caption, etc. RFM57 00:13, 1 February 2007 (UTC).;

Both photos look good and enhance the article. Thanks to both Ollie and RFM57. I might just adjust the positioning to space them out a tad, and nearer the part of the article which they relate to, if you don't mind. – Agendum 08:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

POV
Yet again we get another European version of the abolition of African slavery making a hero of Wilberforce as if he almost single-handedly responsible for ending British slavery. Yes Wilberforce played a part but let us not forget the slave revolts in across the Caribbean (Maroons,Sam Sharp,Hatitian Revolution) Africa, America and South America and the crucial role of the African abololitionists Olaudah Equiano, Igantius Sancho,Ottabah Cugoano and many others. Wilberforce deserves a place in the story of emancipation, but he shares it with many others, both black and white, men and women. Stargem72 13:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC) Email address snipped


 * I don't know whether it's POV or simply lack of information on the subject, but Wilberforce was assisted in the campaign in Britain by many others, each of whom brought unique qualities and experience to the campaign against the trade, viz Clarkson, Stephens, Ramsay, Sharp, Porteus, Middleton and Buxton, amongst others. There are historians actively seeking to have the roles of these men and women recognised this year, rather than have the whole focus placed upon Wilberforce. See Bury the Chains for an excellent summary of who did what. (For links to articles about these important individuals, see my homepage.) – Agendum 14:33, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I just saw the movie 'Amazing Grace.' The movie certainly highlights the role of Wilberforce in the abolition movement but doesn't imply that he did it all himself.  As noted above, the assistance of many others was acknowledged.   He was most definitely a central figure in this campaign and deserves to be recognized as such.  The article could stand improvement, of course, to better address some of the assistance that he received from many others.  Warfieldian 15:36, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

If you can, have a listen at http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/inourtime/ today (Tuesday) or tomorrow. Also see. MAG1 11:42, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Marriage and family
Could the information about Wilberforce's marriage and family be integrated into the narrative about his life rather than tacked onto the end? It seems misplaced there since the article is arranged chronologically. Awadewit 00:08, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Point taken. Why don't you incorporate these events in the appropriate place? Thanks for the suggestion. – Agendum 22:47, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Abolition campaign - new paragraph
On reflection, I wonder whether the new paragraph contributed by Sandra adickees would be better placed elsewhere? Certainly that part which deals with Wilberforce's support for the Society for the Suppression of Vice and Encouragement of Religion is dealt with elsewhere, under 'Other campaigns'. I will consider slightly editing it and moving it if Sandra and others agree. – Agendum 22:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Infobox
I've followed the suggestion and created an Infobox for William Wilberforce. Unfortunately, this has meant losing the Member of Parliament succession box at the foot of the page, but I've tried to ensure that all the information is accurately reproduced. Please tell me what you think.

We also need to find a different picture of Wilberforce to replace the one that is duplicated. I'll try and find one that is not copyrighted. – Agendum 23:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * All those redlinks look pretty ugly, and would be a stumbling block for obtaining FA status, if that is your eventual aim. It would be worth considering creating stubs for them all. →Ollie (talk • contribs) 00:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Ollie. I'm trying to sort those out, as well as preparing more biographical details to enhance the main article. Cheers – Agendum 23:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

POV
While Wilberforce's efforts were indeed commendable, the article leaves one under the impression that after Wilberforce, slavery in the British colonies was abolished, which simply was not the case. (Transportation of slaves was, however, outlawed.) The British continued to employ slave labor for rubber collection well into the 1920s. Thus, Wilberforce was only partially successful in his efforts.

The National Lottery and Parliamentarian
I'm proposing to move these new edits and incorporate most of the content further down, where Wilberforce's other campaigns and causes are included. That is, if everyone agrees. I think the original idea was to try and deal with the campaign against the slave trade first, and describe his other causes and interests afterwards. How does that sound?

Cheers – Agendum 00:09, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it's ridiculously confusing as it is. The section on the Lottery begins 'After the slave trade was abolished...' and the actual abolition of the slave trade isn't dealt with till further down the page. There seems to be no logic behind this order at all.

Which William?
First paragraph in the "Early Life" section introduces two Williams: William Wilberforce, the subject of the article, and his grandfather, William Wilberforce, father of Robert Wilberforce.

Then there is this sentence: "William is described as a very delicate and somewhat sickly child."

It is unclear whether this sentence refers to the subject of the article or his grandfather. Because the very next sentence refers to "William Wilberforce the younger," I am guessing that the sentence in question (about the "somewhat sickly child") refers to the elder William.

I have made an edit change to reflect this. If I have guessed wrong, it will need to be corrected.

Jhadle 17:57, 15 April 2007 (UTC)jhadle
 * Sorry – it's William the younger who was referred to. I've made the necessary changes. Agendum 16:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Parliamentarian
I have reworked this paragraph as it did read a bit as if it had been taken from another work (please forgive me if this is not the case!), added Wiki links where needed, and moved it down to below 'The Final Phase' section. I hope it is agreed that this is appropriate. The order of the sections may still need a little revision, and I will give this some thought. – Agendum 14:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Wilberforce was known to be addicted to opium, taking the drug every day for many years, and was so renowned for his use that he was mentioned in Thomas De Quincey's 'Confessions of an English Opium Eater'. Would this be a suitable piece of information for this article? Mentioning the 'drug use' of one regarded by some as a saint might be a bit controverisal, but would it not in fact give a more NPOV slant to this article? Gin lackey 18:07, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that, as this was at the time a routinely prescribed remedy for all manner of conditions, it was probably commonplace for addiction to occur. This being the case, I would personally think it is not really noteworthy, and probably irrelevant to the remainder of the article. What do others think? – Agendum 10:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)