Talk:William Windsor (goat)/Archive 1

Possible improvements
I have rated this article as a start class as it does not have any supporting materials and I also feel that it requires a bit more detail, namely to explain why a goat would be serving in the British military. The article is well cited, though, and has some good content. Please remember that the military history project does not have a C class, thus it is either a B class or Start class.

I feel that the following improvements could be made, which would bring it up to B class:


 * add some images and maybe an infobox containing biographical details, for an example please see Michael Allmand;✅
 * does the subject have any decorations, for example a GSM or the like? Perhaps this could be added?
 * could the text be expanded a little? Also there is some confusion. In the lead the 'goat in the military' wikilink goes to 'military mascot', however, later the text says he is not a military mascot, but a ranking member of the regiment. This needs to be explained in a bit more detail. I would suggest expanding the lead a little.
 * Grammar: there are a few very short paragraphs which I feel could be consolidated or expanded.✅

Just a few ideas. Hope this helps. Good effort so far. — AustralianRupert (talk) 10:09, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Great article, but visually it is a touch spoilt by the absurd number of duplicate references (eg "Three months later, on 20 September at the same parade ground, "). Could these not be cut down a bit? Ericoides (talk) 10:35, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for the above feedback; I will do what I can. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I have contacted the MoD and Royal Welsh to try to obtain pictures; no feedback from them yet. This is currently a DYK nomination here.  Chzz  ►  17:12, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

historical background
I have spent some time looking into the origins of the goat in the regiment, and feel that this could usefully be added to the article; some sources contradict, and further analysis is required. It will be necessary to explain the origins of the regiment and the later merger, perhaps necessary to give the alternate takes on the possible origin. This needs work; hence, for now, I give the sources that I found in the hope that it can be integrated and clarified in the article;


 * Museum info
 * Royal Welsh band info (rs?) - this is the main source for the interesting origin that could be cited, "One of the Irish soldiers acquired a small goat kid with which he intended to supplement his meagre ration. He was on sentry duty at the time and tucked the live kid under his greatcoat. During the night, he fell asleep, to be suddenly awakened by the agitated bleating of the animal. As he came to, he espied a Russian patrol advancing and was able to warn the forward picket who drove off the enemy."
 * Museum FAQ
 * some history piece
 * forum discussion - quotes from books that could be sourced; "From the text it is obvious that even then, less than ninety years after the Regiment had been raised, the origins of the custom of the Goat were already shrouded in mystery"
 * book, refers to custom in 1775

 Chzz  ►  22:46, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


 * There's some good information from this book, though the writing is quite inaccessible.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 06:41, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * More here.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 08:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Some related material in this book. This article is fun to work on. I had this stupid grin plastered on my face while adding the material on a goat major having been court-martialled for "disrespect to an officer" after he "prostituted" the royal goat. Note that I have added Billy to Unusual articles.‎--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 08:40, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

army number
An excellent article, but I'm very surprised there's no Wikipedia article to link to, for 'army number'. But I know what you'll be telling me ...


 * Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the  link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills.  New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to)..

Trafford09 (talk) 10:26, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi, mate. I have now linked Army Number to Service number. I think that should be adequate as it has a bit about UK numbers in it. — AustralianRupert (talk) 11:06, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah - lateral thinking - I like it:) Cheers, Trafford09 (talk) 13:34, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It was still on my conscience, so I've just created a new redirect: Army number. Trafford09 (talk) 14:15, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * ...and I have improved the redirect, so that it now points to    Chzz  ►  23:12, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Royal herd
I think that a lot more information is available about the Royal Herd; whether it should be in this article, I am not sure, but this news story certainly would be worth mentioning - because it mentions that, during it, the Royal Welsh will select the replacement; [Contraceptives to curb goat herd] BBC 12 May 2009  Chzz  ►  03:29, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

thoughts and resources
Some scrappy notes, that need organising;


 * Clarify why the herd is at Great Orme and Whipsnade; are these both parts of the "Royal Herd"?

"Luckily soldiers from the 1st Battalion the Royal Welch Fusiliers have agreed to help. As they round up the herd they will also choose a goat to be the regimental mascot. " here with video -how come, on this occasion, it seems like they're getting a goat from there, for helping out, rather than the age-old tradition of the gift from the monarch? See also wales pioneer article
 * Add info about contraception and gathering of new goat;
 * There is an alternative reason for them having a goat; something about a soldier getting a goat as a ration supplement, and at night its bleat alerted him to an invasion. Can't remember where I saw this - maybe Google books? this might have something? (UPDATE: SEE BELOW   Chzz  ►  19:50, 24 May 2009 (UTC))


 * Add to explanation of regiment over time; ie 23rd Regiment of Foot becoming Royal Welch Fusiliers etc;


 * Info on the 'only other goat in the army'? ie Royal Welsh 2nd Battalion, see National Archives, re. Taffy. Maybe needs a separate article for him? infobox:military goat, anyone?


 * See museum exhibits on the goats


 * Find out about when he came to the Welsh - twins? Partial article here, needs 'free trial' (credit-card) to read the whole thing; or maybe can get this paper elsewhere? Looks like the 2 goats were twins? Can then add background about previous goat - twins mentioned in this defensedaily

 Chzz  ►  15:56, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Further goats;


 * Mention in this book of Dewi IV presented to the 3rd batallion
 * blog with all kinds of info
 * Re. above alternate origin theory, here (thought to be an RS);
 * The origins of the Regimental Goat reach back to the Crimean War of 1854/56 where one of the Irish soldiers acquired a small goat kid with which he intended to supplement his meagre ration. He was on sentry duty at the time and tucked the live kid under his greatcoat.
 * During the night, he fell asleep, to be suddenly awakened by the agitated bleating of the animal. As he came to, he espied a Russian patrol advancing and was able to warn the forward picket who drove off the enemy.


 * MOD fact sheet
 * "3rd Battalion The Royal Welsh, Maindy Barracks...Regimental mascot is 'Shenkin' the goat"
 * And see pic "Shenkin, the goat mascot of the Royal Welsh Regiment, leads the band at the Millenium Stadium, Cardiff, before the Wales v England international Rugby match"

 Chzz  ►  19:50, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Wales news "Goat Major, Sergeant David Joseph, of the 3rd Battalion The Royal Welsh, and Shenkin the Goat."
 * ""Di" - WWI Goat Mascot of the 15th Welsh Battalion" here on flickr - with LOTS of info.
 * Scottish springbok mascot in 1915 here - may fall outside project scope; not sure about the subspecies etc.
 * Flickr, museum sign (I've lost the URL; search again; some museum in wales has the pic of a goat w/ goat major outside it)
 * Goat Major, the pub: here, "The name is taken from the Mascot of the Royal 41st regiment of Wales. They carried a live goat on the Russian front line in the Crimean War. The goat survived the War and was introduced to Queen Victoria back in England....The pub offers a range of Goat Major memorabilia. :-)

Demotion
What consequences had the punishment for Billy. A cut in retirement pay?--92.227.180.253 (talk) 20:46, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * As far as I can ascertain, there were no long-term consequences following his reinstatement. It's a fair point though - as a retired Lance Corporal, surely he should be entitled to a pension. I will try to find out more about this.  Chzz  ►  23:02, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Two Questions
First regarding the history: how did the original goat get to Bunker Hill in the first place; does anyone know who the goat belonged to originally? I ask this because goats were never native to North America (at least not New England) so I am a bit puzzled if this is a feral beast who got a hold of a flag for too long or just an American "turncoat goat."

Second, regarding the current animal: Is his pension paid in alfalfa or actual pounds? (I know it is a bit funny when you think about it, but it WOULD be interesting to know.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shadowpuppet23 (talk • contribs) 23:34, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Bill the Goat
I have just come across Bill the Goat. This is going to require some form of disambiguation, hatnotes, see also, or something.  Chzz  ►  07:00, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

1914 GOAT PRESENTED BY HIS MAJESTY TO THE 7TH ROYAL WELSH FUSILIERS


THE KING AS GIVER OF WAR-MASCOTS: THE GOAT PRESENTED BY HIS MAJESTY TO THE 7TH ROYAL WELSH FUSILIERS. The King recently presented the white goat shown in the above photograph to the 7th Battalion (Reserve) Royal Welsh Fusiliers, who, since they were raised, have been in training at Newtown, Montgomeryshire. The Welsh Fusiliers have always had a white goat as a mascot, drawn from the famous herd of Cashmere goats which also supplied the King's gift. The animal given by his Majesty to the new battalion was taken from Windsor to Newtown under escort, and was received at the station by two men of the 7th Royal Welsh Fusiliers, who stood with fixed bayonets. On the left in the photograph are Lady Magdalen Herbert, sister of the Earl of Powis, and the Earl's young daughter, Lady Hermione Herbert. On the right are Captains J.H. Addie and Oswald Davies.—[Photo. by Griffiths.] The Illustrated War News, Number 15, Nov. 18, 1914 PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK May 7, 2006 [EBook #18333]  Chzz  ►  07:46, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Dates
I have just had this from Whipsnade Zoo: Billy was born on 23rd September 2001 as one of twins. They both went to the fusiliers on 21st February 2002.

If that weren't at odds with what's already been documented I'd add it to the article, but I think it should wait until we can see the evidence and also explain the discrepancy.

--ClickRick (talk) 12:06, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I did hear the he was one of twins, and I believe the other went to one of the other Royal Welsh divisions - but no reliable sources. Perhaps Whipsnade will make a plaque or something? Or perhaps it will be in the mmedia?  Chzz  ►  18:41, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Template
I have now created a barnstar award for contributors to this article. Recipients of the 'first issue' have been documented in User:Chzz/Recipients of the Goat Star.  Chzz  ►  22:42, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Template:The Goat Star

 Chzz  ►  22:42, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Wow
This is one of the funniest articles I've seen try to get promoted for GA since I've been part of wikipedia. As an editor for four years, I salute the editors of this article for improving it towards GA status. =) Thegreatdr (talk) 18:00, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I love the British sense of humor....
.45Colt 15:12, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, as per WP:ENGVAR, it's humour ~dom Kaos~ (talk) 18:05, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

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External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

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 * Added archive http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20120405205308/http://nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/medals-famous.asp to http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/medals-famous.asp

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