Talk:William de Braose (died 1230)

Was the 4th
Surely it was William de Braose, 4th Lord of Bramber who was known as "Gwilym Ddu"? Deb 20:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Hello Deb. Have only just seen your question.

William de Braose, executed at Garth Celyn May 1230, was known in Snowdonia as 'Gwilym Ddu'. See History of Wales, J. E. Lloyd, page 671, notes, for a published reference, but I can cite many more. Gwern y Grog is in the marshland at the bottom of Garth Celyn. Cae Gwilym Ddu, where his body was buried, is approx 2 miles to the west of Garth Celyn, in the direction of Bangor, on a hillside just outside the manor boundary. Your book on the Princesses is excellent by the way. Nadolig Llawen BrynLlywelyn 11:44, 22 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Diolch yn fawr iawn. My book on the Princes is just out, too.  I was surprised that this William de Braose had such a bad reputation - I hadn't been aware of that (probably because everyone concentrates on his relationship with Joan, whatever it was).  You learn something every day! Deb 11:53, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Spurious Title
This page was named as William de Braose, 10th Baron Abergavenny. However this is a spurious title. The Braoses were Lords of Abergavenny but no Barony of Abergavenny existed at this time. See Baron Bergavenny.

I have renamed the page using "died 1230" as a discriminator for this William de Braose.--Doug (talk) 16:13, 12 January 2010 (UTC)


 * He was Lord of Abergavenny rather than Baron, I think. Would that be an option for a new title? Deb (talk) 22:23, 12 January 2010 (UTC)


 * He was Lord of Abergavenny, but he was lord of many other places too. It's a fact of possession, but not really a title that would ever have been used. I think the date fixes him. As you said above he was also known as "Black William", maybe that could be used as a discriminator.--Doug (talk) 23:19, 12 January 2010 (UTC)


 * No, I think it may have been used of more than one of his family. I don't think a date is an ideal disambiguator, for obvious reasons, but it's no worse than what we were using before.  I'd love to use something like "William de Braose (adulterer)" but it's not really on :-) Deb (talk) 12:38, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I added an extra note beside his name on the William de Braose disambiguation page. Perhaps that's the best way to discriminate.--Doug (talk) 23:22, 13 January 2010 (UTC)