Talk:Willie Mays/Archive 1

World War II
What?! What does the Second World War have to do with anything? Willie Mays didn't start playing professional baseball until 1950, when he was 17! -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zoe (talk • contribs).
 * If anything, the War helped him come closer--Williams fought in both World War II and Korea, and likely would have posted more records if he'd been playing ball in those years. Vicki Rosenzweig

I apoligize
My apologies -- I'm English, I watch cricket, I know nothing. Maybe I was thinking of the time he spent in the Army, or maybe I was thinking of Elvis, or something. I'm glad the page got improved. Mswake


 * He did serve in the Korean War, maybe that's what you were thinking of. Ted Williams did lose all of 1943, 1944, 1945 and most of 1952 and 1953 to military service. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dze27 (talk • contribs).

Photograph
Someone should think of inserting this past-copyright photograph into the article.

Benn M. 08:52, 2005 May 15 (UTC)

Why is there that random picture of the Hall of Fame in this article with that horrible caption? I realize he is in the Hall of Fame, but that picture and caption is fairly worthless in this article. --Agerard 19:38, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Controversy Regarding Mays
In my town of Hagerstown, MD, there was this controversy involving Mays recently. The mayor wanted to pay homage to him by renaming this street after him as an apology for the way he was treated here a long while ago. The thing that the mayor really didn't think of was that the street was called Memorial Blvd., which got a negative response from many people (obviously the veterans were very upset) and our local newspaper received numerous letters with disgust for the whole idea. Now we're viewed by some as racist, but I think the whole thing is pathetic. I don't know, maybe someone could research a little more, as I'm not too clear on the whole deal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.89.7.138 (talk • contribs).

I added paragraphs in the pertinent areas about the subject. Looks like the mayor needs a little PR help. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.213.16.180 (talk • contribs).

Retirement and legacy
I removed the folowing paragraphs from the article as it apears to be original research. I've placed it here for comment -- No Guru 21:45, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Each of these had obvious advantages in one facet or another of the game. Ruth hit more home runs, was also a talented pitcher, and had a higher batting average. Cobb had a considerably higher average and far more lifetime hits, and played with an intensity equalled by Mays, but "Cobbie" added to that an almost violent willingness to run over opponents (particularly infielders) to gain advantage and win games. Aaron, a contemporary who probably had the best hitter's wrists in history, had a rather comparable career but simply outlasted Mays, ending up with nearly 100 more home runs. Aaron did this by having several more "big" batting years, with roughly 35 home runs, a .310 average, and 100 RBIs. If any contemporary was a more overwhelming power hitter than Mays, it would be the switch-hitting Mantle whose broad back and huge muscles arguably gave him more raw power. Mantle hit more truly long balls, including a few that flew completely out of the park. One of these landed 565 feet from home plate; Mays did not do anything comparable. Williams hit over .400 one year, and was overall a bit more productive at the plate than Mays, equally powerful, with considerably higher average. Looking at their entire careers, one suspects that there was something, possibily intangible, about Ruth and Mantle, that allowed them to lead their teams on to victory in a way that Mays, Williams and Cobb did not. Yes, they had the great Yankee supporting cast, but there is a lingering doubt that, were we to replace either Ruth or Mantle with Mays for their entire MLB careers, their teams might not have fared quite as well. In their one direct confrontation in the 1962 World Series, on comparable teams, Mantle's team beat Mays' by inches, but he beat him.

On Mays' behalf, the answer to each of these comparisons is the same, and to many it seems unanswerable: None of them could do ALL of the important things a ballplayer must do as well as Willie. He is the most complete player in history, the Michael Jordan of his sport.

Start the case with fielding: no matter how well his famous counterparts played their position, it is easy to make the case that Mays played his better. In some cases (Ruth and Williams, not superb defensive players), Mays was fabulously superior. In others (Cobb, Mantle, DiMaggio, Aaron), Mays was visibly better, but the margin of superiority was smaller. Mays' command of every part of defensive outfield play was impressive. He made the most famous catch in baseball in 1954, but some feel that the throw he made back to the infield on the same play after the catch, surpassed the catch itself. It is not hard to make the case, though unprovable, that Mays is the best-fielding player baseball has had.

Continue Mays' case with speed and running. Mantle, batting left-handed, by objective measures of timing available in his day, was faster down to first base than anyone in the game, including Willie. Cobb was a very fast, aggressive, often ruthlessly effective base runner. Mays probably matched him, except in ruthlessness; the two were likely the best pair of base runners in history. Either could turn a single into a double when no one expected it, or score from first on batted balls that would have barely delivered other great runners to third. Mays had a way of moving along all the base path, not just down to first, that many considered the best of his era. DiMaggio was a fast and gifted runner, while Ruth and Williams were heavy-footed.

Cobb lacked Mays' power. Ruth and Williams, both slightly better hitters, lacked his speed and defense. Mantle was his equal, or near-equal, but was crippled by injury.

Aaron, it can be argued, equalled Mays at hitting the ball, and bested him in two things--longevity and wrists. Mays caught the ball better than Aaron and threw the ball better than Aaron. He ran the bases better, and had more ability to inspire other players to their best. Mays also lost his cap more gracefully and more often than anyone in history--another superlative! It is easy to suppose that Mays possessed more raw baseball instinct than anyone he played against. At a time when All-Star Games were taken more seriously, Mays dominated the All-Star Game for a decade. Aaron and Mantle, Koufax and Spahn were merely the supporting cast to his starring role. Mays faded in the latter 1960s and Aaron remained powerful, continuining on to best Ruth in lifetime home runs, which Mays failed to do. While they played together in their prime, the best compliment contemporaries could give Aaron was that, on a given day or for a given season, he JUST MIGHT ALMOST be the equal of Willie for a while. But not indefinitely.

The last and most decisive factor in favor of Mays, against all these greats and all other players, was how infectious his love of the game was, and how it could affect his teammates and the fans for the good. All of the others inspired lesser players on to better achievement, but Mays did it more completely and more spontaneously than the rest. He won most hearts for baseball than anyone but possibly Ruth.

This power of inspiration took on another dimension no one else matches when Mays entered into a mutually nurturing relationship with a player who would succeed him as the best player of his generation, Barry Bonds. Part of the credit for Bonds' surpassing success in the last years of his career must go to Mays. Exactly how much is unclear, but it is safe to say that none of the other greats has done anything comparable.


 * Seems like original research. Get rid of it! Ponch&#39;s Disco 00:21, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Gold Gloves
It really should say something in this article about his # of Gold Gloves. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.236.143.243 (talk • contribs).
 * It does now :-) --Tecmobowl 02:10, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Current Revision
I've tried to go through and tighten up the article. Some pieces may be a bit off still. I have tried to remove as much non-encyclopedic information as possible. A lot of this information needs to be sourced and I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to clean it up a smidge more. Have at it wiki people. --Tecmobowl 02:10, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Cited about half the uncited sources, which was basically all I could find in a sitting. It's someone else's turn now. Wayman975 19:41, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks! That's a big help. // Tecmobowl 01:22, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Process of editing
I have a question about the process of editing this article. On Nov 4, 2006, I inserted the following sentence into the "early years" section:

"The Black Barons paid him one dollar per game to play centerfield for them."

I don't normally try to edit Wiki articles, but I remembered reading about this one dollar per game payment somewhere many years ago and for some reason it stuck in my mind. I thought it might be a worthwhile addition to the article and so inserted it.

However, since my source of information is just a memory of something I read many years ago, I expected the normal "keepers" of this article to either delete the sentence or challenge me as to where the information came from. But to my surprise the sentence has remained in the article without being challenged.

As a result, I'm wondering how the process normally works. Can anyone make an addition of this type without being challenged? Or did anyone even notice that I inserted the sentence?

In any case, I'm absolutely certain that my memory of what I read is accurate, although I wouldn't be able to provide a reference because of the long lapse of time.

Billbw 21:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

His value against his contemporaries
It is probably beyond the scope of an encylopedia article to solve a question like that. If we were to analyze it by modern sabermetric standards, we would first consider that center fielders as a group hit worse than left and right fielders, because center field is harder to play, and there is a smaller pool of players who can do it. Thus, if a center fielder and a right fielder have exactly the same batting statistics, the center fielder actually creates more value for his team. A given level of hitting might only be 25 runs better than the typical right fielder, but the same level of hitting might be 50 runs better than the typical right fielder. Aaron was a right fielder, while Mays was of course a center fielder.

Similarly, any comparison of players from different eras, such as Mays to Ty Cobb, has to take into account the differing levels of offense that may have prevailed in each era, as well as the size of the player pool in each era. Cobb's era, for example, excluded all black players from the Major Leagues.

Trying to definitively rank Mays among such players would require a very long article, and would be an exercise on controversy and frustration. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.105.150.197 (talk • contribs).

All Star Appearance
How could Willie Mays appear in 24 All Star games when he only played for 22 seasons? According to Baseball-Reference Willie Mays only appeared in 20 All Star games. This needs to be clarified. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.93.197.117 (talk • contribs). Answer: Willie Mays appeared in 24 All Star games in his career of 22 seasons because in the 4-year period between 1959 and 1962 two All Star games were played instead of one. Thus in Willie's 22-season career, there were 26 All-Star games overall.Phaedrus48 14:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC)phaedrus48

Trivia/Pop Culture
This section contains some extraneous material and some useful material. Please integrate the useful material into the article. Modernist 04:13, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more Modernist. I created a very temporary fix here. Ideally it should be more prosaic. The reference to Mays being Barry Bonds' godfather had to be deleted, but should definitely be worked in elsewhere.TeganX7 14:56, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Special honors
Currently the section says: In 1992, when Barry Bonds signed a free agent contract with the Giants, Mays personally offered Bonds his retired #24 (the number Bonds wore in Pittsburgh) but Bonds declined, electing to wear #25 instead, honoring his father Bobby Bonds who wore #25 with the Giants.

However, according to the San Francisco Chronicle ''..the Giants showed in a surprising announcement just how willing they were to do Bonds a favor. They were giving him Willie Mays' number. The Yankees never offered Mickey Mantle No. 3 (Babe Ruth's number), and the Braves never considered giving Andruw Jones No. 44 (Hank Aaron's number). A retired number is a retired number. But Bonds was going to wear 24, the number the great Mays wore during his cherished career as a Giant. Though Bonds never got to wear 24 - fans and columnists complained, and he settled on 25, which his dad, Bobby, wore - the groundwork was laid. Bonds wasn't just a special player on the field but someone who'd receive special favors off the field from an organization going to great lengths to satisfy the game's premier player.'' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.191.62.46 (talk) 10:06, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Post retirement speculation
I have removed the following section which had no references or citations: Post-retirement with the Mets After he retired as a player, Mays coached and held a public relations position for the New York Mets until 1979. Although the Mets have not formally retired his number 24, only two players have worn it since Mays left the team. There is speculation that former Mets owner Joan Whitney Payson, a longtime admirer of Mays, wanted to have number 24 retired but never got around to issuing an official order.

It seems that this is by definition speculation. While there are players in sports who "unofficially" have their number retired, that generally means it is never used in the season again. I would say that unless this is cited, it is speculation, and should stay out. Thoughts? LonelyBeacon (talk) 14:49, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Death
Was just watching the baseball tonight crew on ESPN and during one of the clips you could hear John Kruk say "Willie Mays is dead!" And the host told him they were talking about inter-league play and not to mention it. Very strange. It otherwise has no mention on the internet —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.95.83 (talk) 16:31, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Same here. Maybe a miscommunication.--Asderoff (talk) 20:33, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, here's the answer: Billy Mays.--Asderoff (talk) 00:30, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Giants retired number?
Willie Mays said in "Studio 42 with Bob Costas" on MLB Network that Barry Bonds asked to wear number 24 but he declined. In this article it says that Mays offered the number but Bonds declined it to wear his fathers #25. It has a source in this article but maybe should we put in that Mays himself disputes that? --24.119.32.80 (talk) 23:19, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Which arm
Can Someone plaese include whether he batted/fielded left/right handed? I think it would be helpful... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.108.176.160 (talk • contribs).
 * He batted and threw righthanded...Modernist (talk) 00:42, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism
The second paragraph under "Negro leagues" has obviously been abused -- can someone more familiar with Wiki revert this to a sane version? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.5.229.2 (talk) 18:08, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The vandalism has been reverted. BRMo (talk) 21:34, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

"Say Hey" should be dropped entirely.
I saw an interview with Mr. Mays where he was asked about that nickname and his somewhat annoyed response was that he may have said that ONE TIME and that some news guy started the "nickname" which was pretty much out of the blue. He was plainly frustrated and annoyed for years by this foolish nonsense. I believe it's time to forget this nickname in honor of a very great player who shouldn't have to suffer this indignity the rest of his life at the whim of some news hack. I don't have a ref. for the interview 76.166.245.241 (talk) 06:22, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I can appreciate that Mr. Mays may not like his nickname, and it may have been based on a one off. However, there are ample references that support the idea that the nickname exists, and that it has been around for a while.  Mr. Mays even lent his name to make a record called (pardon, I may be wrong on the title a bit) "Say Hey (Say Who) Say Willie".  It might be very respectful to not refer to him with this, face-to-face, but I think removing it from the article would be akin to censorship.  I respect your opinion, but I cannot support it. LonelyBeacon (talk) 06:55, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Excised "quote"
The following content was temporarily relocated to the Talk page this date as potentially spurious:


 * Upon his Hall of Fame induction, Mays was asked who was the best player that he had seen during his career. Mays replied, "I don't mean to be bashful, but I was." 

While this is obviously a very attractive quote from a reader interest point of view, malaprop included, the Internet at present is bereft of any valid citation for it.

It first appeared - uncited - in the Willie Mays article on August 20, 2006, as part of an edit by unregistered user 24.215.152.197. Curiously, this was their only edit to the Mays article and one of a spate of often baseball related posts beginning with that IP address's joining Wikipedia August 7, 2006, and ending abruptly September 1 of that year (after which only two more posts have been made by that IP address, both cases of vandalism in 2008 by an apparently unrelated user).

The quote received a citation on November 22, 2006 by user 156.75.192.111, as follows:


 * http://www.abqjournal.com/abqnews/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1548&Itemid=2.

The Albuquerque Journal's website was accessed this date and the cited article located, which, regrettably, indicated the author had utilized the Wikipedia article containing the then-uncited version of the quote as a source:


 * 5:20am -- A Day of Great Moments 	Permalink 	comment 	E-mail
 * By Bruce Daniels
 * Thursday, 28 September 2006 23:24


 * Read more: ABQNews: 5:20am -- A Day of Great Moments http://www.abqjournal.com/abqnews/bill-richardson-watch-mainmenu-28/1548-520am-a-day-of-great-moments.html#ixzz1LffDxKWs
 * Subscribe Now Albuquerque Journal

A search of the 10-page list of returns from a Google search for the quote: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22I+don%27t+mean+to+be+bashful,+but+I+was.%22+-williams&hl=en&safe=off&biw=1080&bih=525&prmd=ivns&ei=mzfFTZGjDujZ0QHGj-n9Bw&start=0&sa=N failed to produce a single bona fide citation, only derivative postings verbatim from this Wikipedia article or partial clones potentially therefrom.

Thus, until someone can come up with a bona fide citation for the quote it has been temporarily relocated here. Wikiuser100 (talk) 12:42, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Parents married or not
IN the "early life" section it states that Willies parents never married. At the end of the article it states that they divorced when he was 3. Can someone clean this up? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.9.209.162 (talk) 14:17, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I do not see wehre the article states his parents divorced when he was 3, so i think it was cleaned up.Millertime246 (talk) 20:53, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Last MLB Appearance
I made a change to the "Last MLB Appearance" from September 9, 1973 to October 16, 1973. This was because Mays played in the 3rd game of the World Series that year. I had gone over to the article on the 1973 World Series, which stated that "In the tenth, Willie Mays would make his final appearance in an MLB game," so I figured that playing in the World Series would be considered an MLB Appearance, in wikipedia's view.

My change has been reverted by someone far more experienced here than me, which I certainly accept. I'm just wondering why wikipedia considers a World Series appearance to be an MLB appearance on a World Series page, but not on a players page. Or was the reversion wrong?

Thanks, RickBro rick (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 04:12, 10 August 2014‎ (UTC)
 * I can't speak for User:Yankees10 (who made the revert), but typically last appearances are implied to be regular season appearances. Don't have a ref on that; that's just the common parlance in such situations.  B-R does list Sept 9 for Mays.  I do advise User:Yankees10 to use edit summaries more often, particularly in this case, which would have avoided all of this.  Rgrds. --64.85.215.14 (talk) 13:25, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for the non-edit summary and late response. The first and last MLB appearances are strictly for regular season games.--Yankees10 05:08, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.yale.edu/opa/campus/2004_commencement/honorands.html
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External links modified
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I have just modified 2 external links on Willie Mays. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150330031638/http://www.sportsdatallc.com/2012/07/09/midsummer-classics-celebrating-mlbs-all-star-game/ to http://www.sportsdatallc.com/2012/07/09/midsummer-classics-celebrating-mlbs-all-star-game

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