Talk:Willy DeVille/Archive 1

Date of birth
This would presume his year of birth as 1950. He died in New York City in the late hours of August 6, 2009, three weeks shy of his 59th birthday.[60] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.137.41.200 (talk) 16:20, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

My research has his birth year as 1950, not 1953. I know there is evidence to contradict my claim - has anyone got anything more concrete ? Derek R Bullamore 17:59, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The Internet Movie Database says August 27, 1953. The Fan Club Website says August 25 1950. We should probably go with the Fan Club Website, don't you think? Griot 18:54, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Willy was born on Aug. 25th in Stanford Conn. According to him. He told me in this http://blogs.epicindia.com/leapinthedark/2006/05/interview_willy_deville.html interview I had with him on Saturday. (IP edit of May 15, 2006)


 * 1950 and 1953 are currently present on the article; some of the versions of the article in other languages state 1950; some state 1953. Online soures vary in stating his birth year and age at death. Correct &amp; improve (talk) 15:49, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * His MySpace says 53: http://www.myspace.com/willyminkdeville. Any other sources? --92.117.43.96 (talk) 15:39, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


 * According to "", he is born "c. 1950". Furthermore, his website biography says "A fourteen year old kid has just settled in on the roof of a building on MacDougal Street. We’re in the early sixties, New York.". This fits better with 1950 than 1953. I would leave it at 1950 unless a more reliable source can be located. – IbLeo (talk) 17:44, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Here is what I just wrote at the same discussion in the German Wikipedia. "After just having watched the "The Berlin Concerts, Part 1 - Unplugged" DVD once more I can bring the discussion about the birth year to an end. That DVD includes an interview with Willy containing the following dialog (from 8:25 to 8:35):
 * Willy: How old were you when the wall went up?
 * Interviewer: Oh, I was very young. It was in 1961.
 * Willy: Yes, I was 11.
 * I think that is an undoubtful verification of 1950 beeing his birth year. --84.129.163.142 (talk) 21:37, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Good work. But let's do the same as with former porn queen Lolo Ferrari (whose age was [deliberately?] often falsified as well): check official sources. This means, check birth register at the place he was born! Shouldn't be too difficult to find some CT resident here who could do this...-andy 92.229.237.242 (talk) 12:46, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Somebody has been changing his birth year to 1953. He was born in 1950. Some early press releases (from the 1970s) claimed his birth year as 1953, but they were incorrect. He was definitely born in 1950, as the following entry from the Social Security Death Index shows (click the link). 76.14.66.186 (talk) 17:37, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=ssdi&rank=1&new=1&so=3&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=ms_r_db&gsln=deville&msddy=2009&msddy_x=1&msddm_x=1&msddd_x=1&dbOnly=_F00032DD|_F00032DD_x&uidh=d9f&msddd=6&msddm=8

Article
From the NY Times, April 20, 1981 "Willie Deville and Band," by Robert Palmer WILLIE DeVILLE launched his band, Mink DeVille, at downtown rock clubs like CBGB in the mid-70's, but unlike the other performers who found their initial audience on that circuit -the Talking Heads, Television, Blondie - Mr. DeVille was a New York classicist. This city's most distinctive popular music has often been a mixture of street-wise realism and sheer romantic invention, and Mr. DeVille's songs and the personality he projected had both.

He knew some of Manhattan's tougher neighborhoods, including the blocks east of Tompkins Square Park, which are the setting for some of his most arresting songs. But he had also learned from the pop music cranked out by professional songwriters in Broadway's Brill Building in the l960's, and especially from the Drifters and Ben E. King disks that populated New York's side streets and back alleys with Romeos and Juliets who wore leather jackets but were pure in heart.

In his three-piece suits, which were street-corner sharp, and his pencil-thin mustache and pompadour, Mr. DeVille could have been a character from Spanish Harlem or Save the Last Dance for Me. And perhaps he was. Certainly his music had an authenticity, a kind of New York soul, that few of his fellow travelers on the punk-rock circuit even aspired to.

Mr. DeVille's career never quite took off, despite the impressive breadth and depth of his talent. He is recording a new album for Atlantic records, having departed from his previous recording commitment under less than amicable circumstances. And on Friday night he was at the Savoy, where he demonstrated with an almost insolent ease that he is still ready for the recognition that should have been his several years ago. He has the songs, he has the voice, and he has the band. And he has expanded the scope of his music by adding elements of French cafe songs and Louisiana zydeco to the mixture of rock, blues, Latin and Brill Building soul that was already there.

Now is the time for Mr. DeVille to finally make good on his exceptional promise. One hopes he will be able to make a new album that captures at least some of the feline grace and casual mastery of shows like his performance at the Savoy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Griot (talk • contribs) 21:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

His family life?
How about his family life? Does Willy have kids, is (was) he married. Such things tend to influence an artists work.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.145.247.14 (talk) 08:30, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes .. i would have expected more about his family life. Great job, though. This bio is longer than Paul McCartneys!Feran (talk) 00:00, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Marriage date to Susan Berle and birth of son Sean are both incorrect. Sean was born in 1968 and Willie was not the father. Susan Berle was married in NYC 9/19/1968 to Robert L. Martin. Willie and Susan had known one another earlier (age 17) in Stamford, CT. Willie and Susan got together again in 1969 -70 and marriage would have been 1970, or later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zenlama (talk • contribs) 22:08, 26 May 2010 (UTC) He later married Lisa Leggett who died in 2001. And later that year married Nina Lagerwall in NYC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.86.228.44 (talk) 14:29, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:BackstreetsOfDesire.jpg
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 * fixed this. SpanishStroll (talk) 19:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Death Date
Reportedly the 6th & not the 7th: http://www.willydevillemusic.com/index.php?page=news&n_id=80 82.224.103.123 (talk) 18:41, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This has already been corrected. – IbLeo (talk) 17:04, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Cabaret?
It's a real pleasure reading this source of info on Willy, a man that to my knowledge never had his story written down in a printed biography during his lifetime. Rumours has it that there is a Spanish one, but I never saw it. I have just finished my Swedish wiki article about Willy and feel rather pleased - and surprised nobody did it before.

However, there is one thing that makes me a little curious. Namely the use of the word "cabaret", as for the use of the phrase "French cafe songs" in the article below. I have loads of lps, cds, vhs', dvd's, cassettes etc with Willy's music collected (and seen him perform live) and I have never heard or seen the man perform an old fashioned and light piece of European comedian entertainment, or as Wikipedia puts it: "Cabaret is a form of entertainment featuring comedy, song, dance, and theatre, distinguished mainly by the performance venue"

I really think the question is a matter of cultural differences. If you go to Wiki's Cabaret page, you will find names such as Edith Piaf and Elton John(!) listed as artists of interest at the Paris "cabaret" venue Lido. But - she was and he is: a pop singer! Looking at the discussion page for Cabaret, the confusion seems to be a confusion between the continents. Willy was a great fan of Edith's - the influence being rather noticeable in "atmosphere". But according to me this doesn't make Willy's music cabaret, even less since I wouldn't categorize Edith Piaf as cabaret! Willy and Edith were beautiful, sometimes dramatic, performers - but not actors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pompidur (talk • contribs) 19:25, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Suggestions: In the very first paragraph change "strains of French cabaret" to "strains of French contemporary chansons" or maybe better: "strains of French 20th century chansons". And to delete "cabaret" from the list of genres covered in the box on the right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pompidur (talk • contribs) 19:43, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Well spotted. I also suspect that the reference to cabaret must be based on some kind of misunderstanding. Cabaret is usually associated with places like Moulin Rouge and young girls dancing can-can. I agree with you that the correct term to use would be chanson. This also goes for Le Chat Bleu. And please remember to WP:SIGN your posts. – IbLeo (talk) 20:43, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Interesting discussion here. I don't think "chanson" does it, as that calls to mind (to me anyway) French liturgical music. The term "cabaret" is used many places to describe DeVille's Piaf-influenced and French-influenced songs, especially the ones on "Le Chat Bleu." DeVille's NY Times obituary, for example, says "'Le Chat Bleu'...included French cabaret music..." Critic Neil McCormick of England's Telegraph newspaper also uses the word "cabaret": "...the playful 30-ish cabaret of ‘Bad Boy’..." It appears that Cabaret means different things to different people, but here we have two reputable newspapers applying the term to DeVille. I have never seen the word "chanson" applied to his music. SpanishStroll (talk) 18:41, 1 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your keen response! Yes, the term chanson is definitely somewhat ambiguous too, and the conception might be affected by cultural differences etc. From my view, most commonly music minded people would think of Edith Piaf, Jacques Brel and the likes; Charles Aznavour and Mireille Mathieu would probably just be called pop or schlager. Generally I think the change - and the existence of parallel meanings - from "liturgical" to simple plain "popular" within the meaning of chanson is accepted even within scholarly contexts. Maybe the plain word "song" would be the best after all, which would make up "strains of French songs", "strains of French early/mid 20th century songs" etc. I am aware rock journalists are eager to conjure up images of what they have seen and heard, and I think it is their job to do so, but their language might not always be based on facts - of course - and therefore not proper on Wikipedia. One often discussed issue on different Willy DeVille forums and sites (and in interviews) is why he didn't sell more records than he did. My point is that one of the reasons is that he built up an image that was perceived as very odd and exotic in a not so favourable way to Americans, concerning band name, record titles, images etc. This "strange" image was further emphasized by rock critics who (just as they do today) added different descriptions to his music that actually stemmed from how he looked, was dressed, and the fact that he might have seemed a little "scary" compared to Bruce Springsteen or The Police or whoever. So, I thought that maybe it's time to "de-mystify" the solid and always accessible work of Willy DeVille, and really listen to the music itself. The phrase "...the playful 30-ish cabaret of ‘Bad Boy’..." by Neil McCormick is just an example of lacking knowledge since the tune is classic R&B/doowop, to my knowledge made famous by The Jive Bombers, featuring distinctive (Afro)-American sounds and chord progressions. Le Chat Bleu might include "French cabaret music" to someone who was brought up with Britney Spears and Foo Fighters, and to me it remains a mystery why a NY Times journalist and humble obituary writer would be so culturally narrow, or askew. --Pompidur (talk) 16:17, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * SpanishStroll, it is a good thing that you brought some reliable sources into our little discussion. However, I can't help wonder if these obituary writers didn't pick up the "cabaret" thing here on Wikipedia, which would create a circular sourcing situation? I gave "Bad Boy" a listen today, and like Pompidur I can't hear the faintest hint of cabaret in that song... On the other hand, I understand your concern with the term "chanson" which probably doesn't mean a lot to people outside France (it's hard for me to judge as I live in France). Pompidur, I am not a fan of your proposal to simply use the word "song"; it doesn't contain any information regarding genre. However, I wonder whether we can agree on a compromise that actually appears in DeVille's NY Times obituary: "..., he drew from many sources, including Latin music, French ballads, New Orleans funk and Cajun accordion music? My proposal would be to replace "French cabaret" with "French ballads" in the lead section, and remove "cabaret" from the infobox. In any case, whatever word we agree upon it would at most apply to a couple of songs in DeVille's complete catalogue, and Indian classical music is not listed in The Beatles' infobox just because they released Within You Without You. – IbLeo (talk) 20:57, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * IbLeo, I agree, "ballads" is a better word to use and it's a little funny that the NY Times uses both "ballads" and "cabaret". Your idea about circular sourcing is striking, as for your comparison to The Beatles' song and its style. May I ask you how the word chanson is used in France, as it simply means "song"? Is there a difference in language made between different types of chansons, for example between a light pop song by France Gall and a classic Edith Piaf take like Mon Dieu, and an old liturgical one? --Pompidur (talk) 21:56, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Hm, not an easy question. As you say, the word "chanson" simply means "song"; consequently "chanson française" covers more or less any piece of music with lyrics. However, I think that the French term we are looking for is "variété française" which widely covers most French pop music of the last century, including Edith Piaf, George Brassens, Claude François, France Gall, and even early Serge Gainsbourg (but probably not his later reggae and new wave albums). If you walk into a record shop in France (like the Fnac) you will find a huge section with all these acts and many more. Unfortunately I don't think there is an English translation of "variété française" that we can use, otherwise it would have been an obvious choice. As a footnote I can mention that the term "nouvelle scène" is commonly used for the rock acts that have established themselves during the last decade or so, e.g. Dionysos (one of my personal favorites), Mathieu Chedid, Zazie, Cali, and Olivia Ruiz just to name a few. – IbLeo (talk) 17:16, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * PS. As for liturgical songs, I really don't know (I am not born natural born French). – IbLeo (talk) 17:20, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Very interesting discussion... The problem with "ballads" is that a ballad is a special kind of song that tells a story -- in other words, it is a sung narrative. DeVille's cabaret-style songs can be sentimental as ballads often are, but they don't have the narrative component. About circular references to "cabaret" in the NY Times and Telegraph, can we presume that these very well-respected newspapers use lowly Wikipedia as a source? I'm sure these newspapers are very leery of Wikipedia, as they should be. Getting back to the main question, I bet if you say the word "cabaret" to most Americans they'll have a vision of a guy in a tuxedo or a woman in a gown standing in a small club singing a sentimental song to the accompaniment of a piano. In this respect, DeVille was most certainly a cabaret singer at times (see his version of "Let It Be Me" on YouTube, for example). Maybe there is a better term than "cabaret." I'm open to finding one but we haven't found it yet. SpanishStroll (talk) 20:52, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that nice link. Is that really what "cabaret" means to you Americans? Well, then I suddenly better understand the use of that term in connection with Willy DeVille. Talk about cultural differences over the meaning of a single word there... Anyway, since we can't reach consensus to change, then status quo it will be. I am certainly not going to argue more about a genre in an infobox, knowing that I would like to see them go. By the way, I wouldn't put it behind a desperate obituary writer to take a glance at Wikipedia a late night 15 minutes before deadline... Keep up the good work! Cheers. – IbLeo (talk) 21:03, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, it now seems as we have been discussing 4 different words to describe the French/European influence in the works of Willy DeVille, more precisely as it comes out on the album Le Chat Bleu.


 * - Chanson: The Wiki article on this word starts out by saying:
 * "A chanson is in general any lyric-driven French song, usually polyphonic and secular."
 * and goes on with a special section on how a modern definition might be done:
 * "In France today "chanson" often refers to the work of more popular singers like Jacques Brel, Georges Brassens, Edith Piaf, Charles Aznavour, Barbara, Léo Ferré, Serge Gainsbourg, etc. Chanson is distinguished from the rest of French "pop" music by following the rhythm of the French language, rather than that of English, and thus is identifiable as specifically French"
 * Considering this, I think this is a fairly precise description of what Willy DeVille was sometimes into, especially in songs like "Just To Walk That Little Girl Home", "You Just Keep Holding On" and "Heaven Stood Still" from the aforementioned album Le Chat Bleu, but still mainly as a source of inspiration in phrasing, use of accordeon and string arrangement by Jean Claude Petit who was formerly Edith Piaf's collaborator. Looking at the Wikipedia description we see that the word chanson does not necessarily have to be within liturgical contexts.


 * - Song: This is a word with a wide set of sub-definitions and therefore says very little of what style it is. The advantage is that there is no risk of confusion or misdirection in choice of genre - following a sort of "rather safe than sorry"-concept.


 * - Ballad: As SpanishStroll mentions above, a ballad is traditionally "a special kind of song that tells a story -- in other words, it is a sung narrative". This is the original definition. To me Willy DeVille is not mainly a folk singer and does therefore not have to be labeled by other means than most pop or rock singers. Looking at the Wiki article on ballad there is a special section named "Pop and rock ballads" that to me fits well enough to capture the fact that Willy DeVille was often making and performing different kinds of ballads, like the one that SpanishStroll gives a brilliant example of above, copy here: "Let It Be Me" on YouTube. The song "Let It Be Me" is a true classic in the field of 20th century songs, originally French but covered by many of the greatest American performers - in my opinion the very essence of the 20th century ballad.


 * - Cabaret: Now to the very question here, should this be or should it not be? Wikipedia says:
 * "Cabaret is a form of entertainment featuring comedy, song, dance, and theatre, distinguished mainly by the performance venue—a restaurant or nightclub with a stage for performances and the audience sitting at tables (often dining or drinking) watching the performance being introduced by a master of ceremonies, or MC. Cabaret also refers to a Mediterranean-style brothel—a bar with tables and women who mingle with and entertain the clientele. Traditionally these establishments can also feature some form of stage entertainment, often singers and dancers."
 * This line of info is completed with a picture of a group of half naked dancers and a guy singing in a very overt entertainment style. In fact, the picture was taken at a club in my hometown, and I don't think Willy DeVille would have enjoyed the place. The word cabaret apparently has different meanings depending on country and age but the different meanings seem to have at least two common denominators: 1) it is an example of an "entertaining" show, with a plot 2) the lyrics and the performance together form what is commonly known as comedy. As I have put forward in this topic before, I cannot find any of this in the performances or recordings by Willy DeVille.


 * In my opinion neither ballad or chanson is misleading, but rather informative, and would thus present a more accurate connotation to the French/European "strains" in the music of Willy DeVille and his band Mink DeVille. Any other people than IbLeo and SpanishStroll who'd like to give a say? Am looking forward to your completing vote in this somewhat intricate matter! Best regards --Pompidur (talk) 22:52, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Is the Jr. in William Borsey Jr. Correct?
The article says that DeVille was born William Paul Borsey Jr., and it cites (what looks to me anyway) like an obscure Dutch book as a source. I recently learned that DeVille had two older brothers, which leads me to believe he was not a Jr., as usually the first born son is named after the father and given the Jr. suffix. Does anybody have a source for the Jr.? SpanishStroll (talk) 22:25, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The book you mention is neither Dutch nor obscure, but Danish and very well reputed there. It is in fact the 4th edition of the only serious rock encyclopedia that exists in Danish. It's a brick of 1655 pages, and the 1st edition goes back as far as 1974. So I would not question it's reliability. Having said that, it is true that it would be better with an English language source as this is the English Wikipedia. However, none of the books in English that I have in my possession mention anything about DeVille's birthname. Even the American "" that contains a lengthy article on DeVille makes no mention whatsoever that Willy DeVille is not his birthname and only states that he is born "c. 1950". So until we find another reliable source I would leave it as-is. Do you have a source about the two brothers? – IbLeo (talk) 05:53, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * My apologies for being chauvinistic about the Danish book. Probably a European source of information about DeVille is just as good or better than an American one, seeing how DeVille has been woefully neglected here in his native country. In Richard Marcus's 2006 interview with DeVille, DeVille said, "You know I grew up and I had older brothers, four and six years older, so there was always music around..." I have never heard of a younger male child given the "Jr." suffix, but it can happen. I'll keep my eyes open to see if I can find a source. SpanishStroll (talk) 17:32, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No offense taken—I understand that it can appear obscure to anyone not speaking Danish (and after all we are only about 5 mio. with that gift :-). I have no idea of DeVille's parental relations, but could it be that his Mum had two children before marrying his Dad, so he would be the first son of his Dad and thus a legitimate "Jr."? Of course, I am only guessing here. –IbLeo (talk) 18:25, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Lead paragraph is highly POV
Phrases like "songs that are wholly original yet rooted in traditional American musical styles" and "The typical DeVille song—if any of his songs can be called "typical"—is filled with romantic conviction and yearning" are written like magazine reviews or essays, and certainly aren't neutral. "wholly original" isn't quantifiable in the least. Any songwriter who writes original material writes "songs that are original" -- and what's "wholly original" mean? As opposed to "partially original"? The rest of the article -- even the rest of the lead -- seems well-documented and straightforward. But that lead is inexcusable. Music fans being what they are, I don't want to go in and make changes. I would ask that whoever wrote these overtly loving phrases step back, try to look at the subject neutrally, and redo that part of the lead in NPOV fashion. --207.237.230.157 (talk) 22:03, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I can't help but agree to the above. The lead section should be rewritten and shortened down to max. 4 paragraphs in accordance with WP:LEAD. The remaining stuff should be moved down to the relevant sections. For the time being I am tagging it with the relevant template. – Ib Leo (talk) 21:08, 21 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I didn't write it but I made the corrections as so much time has passed and it wasn't changed. Agadant (talk) 17:31, 2 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Well done! – Ib Leo (talk) 05:46, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20041218024319/http://personal4.iddeo.es/rangel/kingcreole.htm to http://personal4.iddeo.es/rangel/kingcreole.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071224062338/http://personal4.iddeo.es/rangel/main.htm to http://personal4.iddeo.es/rangel/main.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090122095926/http://personal4.iddeo.es/rangel/laiteriee.htm to http://personal4.iddeo.es/rangel/laiteriee.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20041218024319/http://personal4.iddeo.es/rangel/kingcreole.htm to http://personal4.iddeo.es/rangel/kingcreole.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071224062338/http://personal4.iddeo.es/rangel/main.htm to http://personal4.iddeo.es/rangel/main.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091209101943/http://blogs.epicindia.com/leapinthedark/2009/08/willy_deville_rest_in_peace.html to http://blogs.epicindia.com/leapinthedark/2009/08/willy_deville_rest_in_peace.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060629223618/http://blogs.epicindia.com/leapinthedark/willydeville.html to http://blogs.epicindia.com/leapinthedark/willydeville.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081206022827/http://www.faceculture.nl/artist.php?id=267 to http://www.faceculture.nl/artist.php?id=267

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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 13:02, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Mink should only be summarized
Currently the section "Mink DeVille years" is almost as long as the main article on that subject, Mink DeVille, thus leading to a lot of unnecessary redundancy. According to WP:SUMMARY, this article should only contain a short summary of the full Mink DeVille article; interested readers can then refer to that article for the full story. Dave_Grohl and Neil_Young illustrates well this idea. It would also have the benefit of shortening down this article which I find a tad long. I am tagging the section accordingly. – Ib Leo (talk) 21:49, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I am starting this clean-up now. Step 1 is to make sure that everything here is also included in the Mink DeVille article. Step 2 is to boil the whole thing down to a summary. It will probably take me a few days, or even weeks. – Ib Leo (talk) 20:38, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Step 1 completed. – Ib Leo (talk) 06:48, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅. Step 2 is now completed as well. – Ib Leo (talk) 19:07, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

I removed neutrality tag as it isn't discussed here. 192.217.44.17 (talk) 18:23, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Wrong. Look at the previous section. – Ib Leo (talk) 18:29, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I have rolled back your removal. Feel free to help improving the article by making it more neutral. – Ib Leo (talk) 18:31, 17 December 2010 (UTC)