Talk:Wilson's School

Untitled
We need refs for a "start", pics useful, alumni gets a mid. Welcome Victuallers 14:54, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Reassess May 2007
Wow! This article has come a long way. It is well referenced and set out and has cited its claims to fame. So I have upped it to "high" and to "B", but I suspect that this article could go on to be a "Good article" .... or even a "Featured Article". Assuming that you still have some enthusiasm left then... lets get you to GA... first Victuallers 09:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

extra
Oh your refs look a bit odd. This is a ref to google. Can you see that this is prettier? If you are going for GA then look at the cite tag too Victuallers 10:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

And then later you can ref another thing, but cleverly I can ref the google site again without adding a new number or typing it again although you will need to study the source carefully. Victuallers 10:27, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

My pretty refs (which will be in two neat columns)
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 * Point taken - although disappointed to be demoted to start status. The trouble is that "A Short History of Wilson's School" sums up pretty much everything about the school. It is almost an inch thick (somewhat ironic, given the title) and is supremely authoritative. A plethora of other references would make it look better, in and of themselves, but would not make the content better.Parmesan 02:17, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * More references have been made inline and now more than one factual reference. Referencing could still be improved, I admit.Parmesan 21:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism
It would appear that certain Wikipedians are adding defamatory and scurrilous comments to this article. Please do not do this. We are monitoring the page closely and will investigate any further instances of biased edits. Ricagambeda 17:05, 23 March 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ricagambeda (talk • contribs) 10:50, 18 March 2007 (UTC).


 * the school is semi-blocked from editing (only old users can edit) Fwed66 13:01, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Major Overhaul
As an OW, I thought I should have a bash at making this page a shade better than it is at the moment. Still, it was vandalised before I even got to save the thing. Pathetic. Parmesan 22:10, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Many thanks to Parmesan for the potted history. I have nicked it and used it as the basis for a school history on the official web site!!! Hope you don't mind. You can contact me by emailing the webmaster from the school site. Ricagambeda 17:00, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * References have been added for the Alumni, other than Galliano (which was news to me when I read it). The historical information is entirely from A Short History of Wilson's School, which has a full reference at the bottom of the page. Putting a footnote to every paragraph would look a bit odd, I think. I have added a link to the OFSTED Report. A request has been made for pictures. I remember that there was at least one Lord Mayor of London who was a Wilsonian, and I think an Archbishop too. However, I cannot remember any names. Parmesan 18:17, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 * A pile of pictures have now been added by myself and Ricagambeda. I also added the infobox.Parmesan 14:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

The page looks a lot better and I have moved it up to a B. Someone else told me that a search like http://www.search.com/search?q=attended+%22wilson%27s+school%22 can help to find refs for your missing alumni and vice versa. Your page may be able to go further. It is possible to be an A or an FA. Victuallers 16:39, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Blimey - you are not wrong. I just found [|this] on the wartime experience at the school. Will summarise. Parmesan 23:41, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Homework
Currently, the page is full of notes of historical interest and suchlike. It does not provide any criticism. I note that in one revision (now done away with), the volume of homework (among other matters) was mentioned. Speaking for myself (noting the "Original research" contributor caveat, Homework was much more substantial than in many other schools in my day (1991-1998). While this, no doubt, is strongly associated with the school's academic performance, it was sometimes a shade OTT. I had to give up Scouts as I couldn't get my Chemistry homework done on time without doing so. I have not acted on this observation and await further comments. Parmesan 23:41, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Following communication from Ricagambeda, I understand that the situation is now considerably different (though no less rigorous) than when I was a pupil, and I withdraw the observations regarding homework above. Parmesan 12:02, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Just to comment on this - I believe that we had the same amount as other competitor schools (eg: Sutton Manor where my brother attended) during my period (late 80's onward)- personally I think you could be smart and get through it without overdoing things. Sadly I never quite worked that out until the 6th form when I actually became more efficient at tackling everything. Like the overloading I received during my 2nd year Mechanical Engineering degree, it is all part of character building; the tools you need in business rely on never finishing that pile in the in tray. Just a comment [csg1, Jan 5th 09] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.44.123 (talk) 23:51, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Sport
Thanks for the Sport section - I was wondering when one of us would get around to that! My initial thought is that it is odd to have by far the largest section (Swimming and Water Polo) devoted to what by now is probably Wilson's least distingushed, prominent or successful sport (apart from maybe Rugby). The loss of the pool has had its obvious and predictable consequence in that respect. Ricagambeda 08:37, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Speaking personally, I was amazed at the loss of the pool. It seems quite bizarre and terribly sad. Nevertheless, Wilson's has been noted for its performance in swimming, so perhaps it is more a matter for the other sections to be expanded, more than the swimming/waterpolo section to be contracted? Also a shame, if not unexpected, to see that Rugby, which I (and two other lads of my year) helped bring back to the school in the mid-90s is still not doing all that well. On another matter, I have just added a section on notable former governors (App A of A Short History), which was rather interesting to research. Parmesan 22:25, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The loss of the pool was widely lamented but any opposition to the planned conversion was met with a simple statement of the facts: (1) the boiler and filter equipment was worn out and kept breaking down; expensive to keep repairing and prohibitive to replace (the pool was latterly out of action for weeks and even months at a time and it would have cost about £2m to bring the entire pool up to a decent standard); (2) an increasingly large contingent of the pupils is made up of nationalities for whom swimming is not a major interest, whereas things like basketball and badminton are. Sad but true. Ricagambeda 08:31, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Old Boys Headings
Thanks to Ricagambeda for the headings - an excellent idea, although choosing the most appropriate place for some is very difficult.Parmesan 00:24, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Michael Caine and John Galliano
MozDog's comment ("The two most well-known living Old Boys are Michael Caine and John Galliano. Neither man has ever spoken publicly about his affection for Wilson’s") may be true, but in the case of Michael Caine the reluctance to comment cuts both ways: my understanding is that his first acting was on the school stage under the strong encouragement of an English teacher, and as far as I know it was his school experience that led him to consider joining a drama club outside. If his silence is taken as a condemnation of the school (and it was a very different school in those days) then it is not wholly justified; it is suggested by at least one Wilsonian who remembers him from school days that he did not appear to have an especially miserable time there for any reason. His refusal to have anything to do with the school to this day is deeply disappointing to the current generation who are not party to any past offence and would value his patronage hugely (especially in for example the area of acting, which is now a thriving area of school life). I dare say Mr Caine simply has his own reasons for having no affection for the place and would prefer to leave it at that, but it is still a great pity.

In the case of Galliano it is true that many of the other boys picked on him, but he shared in the blame for that. His flamboyant and provocative behaviour made him an irresistible target. The school staff were extremely solicitous in trying to minimise the damage this caused both to John and those around him.

I would prefer to delete this comment as misleading. It certainly should not stand at the head of the article - I shall move it first and consider deleting it later. Ricagambeda 17:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed - it is in an inappropriate tone of voice. I'll leave the change to Ricagambeda. Caine's view of the school may, I presume, be associated with being expelled, as I understand he was. I have heard it said that he devotes only a few paragraphs to it in his autobiography. As for Galliano - he certainly sounds a character...Parmesan 23:00, 18 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Good thought abut the autobiography. I haven't read it. I have just ordered up a copy on Amazon for a penny and will find out what the man himself has to say about it. Ricagambeda 08:07, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Whatever the circumstances behind it, what I wrote is fact. You have removed it because it’s very clear you will not have any blemishes written on the school’s wiki record. Your comments here just reinforce this bias.MozDog 08:32, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Mozdog, please assume that edits to the page are made in good faith. I see that you are a newbie, so I would very much recommend reading over it and the other Official Policy pages. Nevertheless, the issue of criticism has been raised before - have a look at "Homework" above. As for other criticism, I was horribly bullied for much of my time at the school but I don't think that it had a particular bullying problem overall, and I have no knowledge of the situation today, so I have remained silent on the matter. Presumably when Ricagambeda has received Caine's autobiography we will know his side of the story. Perhaps a better phrasing of your text on Galliano and Caine is all that is needed? Parmesan 19:27, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I think I have to leave the "better phrasing", as you call it, to you two... MozDog 07:28, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Extracts from Caine's autobiography:

'Wilson's Grammar School... now came into my life. I will pass a veil over this area of my life; suffice it to say that I hated this school and the compliment was returned in spades. There was only one man there that I really liked, an English teacher called Eric Watson, who took the trouble to guide my rebellious mind into the area of literature.' MC then says how much he liked French because of the allure of the French teacher who was the only female on the staff and had nice legs. 'Apart from French and English, I failed completely to get an education at this school and the only marks I have to show from there are on my arse as a result of the disciplinary ministrations of the then headmaster. My only other memory of this place is even more unpleasant. If you got into trouble in class, which I did on a regular basis, you were made to go and sit in the back row, which was the realm of a boy who used to masturbate more or less continually...' and so on.

I have checked with an old boy who remembers him from school days: firstly, he was not expelled but left at age 15 with school certificate in the subjects he passed (presumably French and English). Secondly, he was rarely in trouble in class; the most he got up to normally was truanting during games, which was common enough among the non-sportsmen. He may well have been walloped by Mr Lee, the Headmaster, but probably only once. Mr Caine's own portrayal of his school days is slightly different and may well be coloured by a perceived need to be seen as a rebel and hard case from his earliest years.

MozDog, these two celebrities may well have nothing but miserable recollections of their school days. You could find no lack of others with worse stories to tell; and probably as many (maybe more) who loved their time at school; and the same goes for just about any school you can think of. My point is - so what? Your comment sheds no light on the school itself. I don't understand why you think it important, or why the opinion of these two men deserves to be mentioned in particular and not that of others. Ricagambeda 17:00, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

You are right. The thoughts of extremely successful celebrities are just silly. We need a lot more stuff on the school play ten years ago, extra detail on the correct military ranks of all teachers who were brave enough to drill in the car park and perhaps some info-graphics explaining the actual tie and sleeve protocol when it gets really hot. Carry on boys… MozDog 15:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Mozdog, I hope the edit I just made concerning Michael Caine's view of the school has gone some way to placate your views on the matter. Parmesan 12:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Mick McManus
Good additions to the Old Boys list by 172.159.44.243 but I have deleted Mick McManus as I have it on good authority that it was not the wrestler but his son who attended Wilson's School. Ricagambeda 18:06, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikification
I have responded to the request for wikification by removing excessive subsections and adding to the introduction. I think that should also have bumped the page's assessment class up a peg or two. If my work has deemed to have done what was requested (I didn't understand the tables issue), please remove the tag. The images still need some work, though, regarding placement. It would be nice to have a scan of the picture of the old school on page 50 of A Short History. I don't have the facilities for that. Parmesan

Talybont
We should have a section on the field studies centre. I'll try to remember to do this at some point.Parmesan 12:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Self/Oneself
I would like to kick off a debate on the translation of "non sibi sed omnibus". When I was at school, it was always rendered into English, at least as far as I remember, as "not for oneself but for all" and not "not for self but for all." "Self" may be a more direct translation from the Latin - but is it a better and more natural translation than "oneself"? Personally, I don't think so. Parmesan 19:02, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

'Not for oneself...' is the version that appears painted above the war memorial in the main foyer - I always thought it plain dumb that they did that in preference to the original Latin. In my opinion 'not for self' is a better translation because I always like to avoid the prissy-sounding pronoun 'one' wherever possible (unless trying to sound pompous), and 'not for self' makes the generalised applicability of the motto just as clear. But I don't really think there's much of a debate here - it's only the translation after all, not the motto itself. Ricagambeda 11:23, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

"Not for oneself" is the version understood during my time at Wilson's (87-94). Since many of the original staff who had come from Camberwell were still present, it seems this was the version that had indeed been handed down through several generations (it is shown in some 1970's school magazines that I acquired for example), and at many a Founder's Day service this was used in this form. I believe mention should at least be made of the recognized version in the text; your opinion that the form is prissy is a shame, none of us thought that at the time. As with the loss of the 6th form uniform with its crisp tie and badging, everything gets wiped out for the sake of 'progress'. unsigned comment added by 82.34.44.123 (talk) 23:40, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

George Hooper
Your information about George Hooper is not correct. DNB definitely does not consider him executed. Great if you could update. billinghurst (talk) 16:22, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Done! Parmesan (talk) 21:41, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Wasa
Do we need to mention Wasa? Last I heard it was a very small club, about the size of Christian union. Surely Wasa is not important enough to be included when clubs such as the debating society and Duke of Edingbourg arn't considered to be? Out of interest what is PARS? Banak (talk) 14:35, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

House Points
Is the reference to house points leader in the Houses Section referring to overall leader of all time or the leader at this current time in this year's compitition? If it is reffering to this year's compitition then it needs to be changed as currently Camberwell are leading. Harryj2198 (talk) 18:40, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Category:Old Wilsonians renaming
At present there is a discussion relating to the renaming of this category. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at this discussion page. Please note that the discussion is not a majority vote so contributions should be based on Wikipedia policies and independent sources. Cjc13 (talk) 14:02, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Wilson's School. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090514072255/http://www.wilsonsschool.sutton.sch.uk:80/activities/ccf/ccf.html to http://www.wilsonsschool.sutton.sch.uk/activities/ccf/ccf.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 09:41, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Possible copyvio in history section
Our history section is almost word for word the same as this page as discovered by. Another editor removed the copyvio tag on the grounds that the school page is a mirror of this one, but our page only references the school page, so if they copied ours and we referenced it, it is citogenesis, and thus unreferenced. Please don't remove the maintenance tag until we have come to a consensus view of whether there is a violation (in which case it will be revdelled) or whether the section is the original but unsourced (in which case better souring is required). Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:22, 15 July 2024 (UTC)


 * If we are replacing any history, this page has some material we could make use of. . Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:27, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'll also note that I see you have requested a good article review. Any reviewer will be checking for copyvio and this page will fail if not resolved. Better to get this fixed quickly if you want it to get through. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Fairly sure this would be quickfailed as a drive-by nom, although as I have limited experience in GA I'm not sure whether the procedure is to remove the nom or to quickfail it, as it is not listed on WP:GAFAIL.-- Laun chba ller 18:26, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't know either, but I have removed the copyvio template. There is indeed suggestion on the talk page that the Wikipedia text was copy and pasted to the school website in 2007 and archive copies seem to bear that out. I therefore also removed the reference to the school website, which is clearly citogenesis. The school website cannot verify information they got from here. So where does the information come from? Well the foot of the section has a reference (Allport & Friskney, 1987) which appears to be a reprint of a 297 page history that was first published in 1951 by the Old Wilsonians. I cannot find any library copies anywhere. If there is a copyvio from it, I cannot verify, but at that length, it is more likely someone read it and then wrote the history. We don't know the quality of the research, but my gut feeling is it is probably fine. However it would be great to get some better sources. The fact the Wikipedia page went onto the Wilsons page does mean that any text that simply repeats this, published after 2007, very likely is sourced to this page - so beware! As to the GA review: well it was indeed a drive by. Even though that section is not a copyvio, there are, I think, other issues and no systematic effort has been made to resolve them. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:17, 18 July 2024 (UTC)