Talk:Wind Horse

Lungta
This page could use a lot more detail about the use of the term in Tibetan to refer to Qi or internal energy. But it might make more sense to merge this page and redirect to Lungta which is the Tibetan word for wind horse (literal translation) - Owlmonkey (talk) 19:09, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

In Mongolian shamanism
I've copied text that was deleted from the article:


 * Possible origins of the wind horse can be found in the region of Mongolia as a component of Tengriism. The Turco-Mongolian legend reports of a magical horse, which was born as a foal with eight legs and the ability to fly. The wind horse was the spiritual child of a shaman woman named Chichek (Turkic for "flower", in Mongolian tsetseg), and should help her to escape the reign of an evil Khan. This succeeds only after his death, when it appears in Chicheks dream and carries her away. In Mongolian representations, the wind horse is usually shown with wings.


 * Khiimori represents the inner strength of a human, his soul. This strength helps to find the balance between father sky (old Turkic: Tengri, Mongolian: Tenger) and mother earth. Good deeds strengthen the soul. Every act that disturbs the balance of the world causes the inner strength to shrink. This way tengriism explains why evil humans often develop self-destructive behaviour.

It seemed worth keeping a record of, in the event that whoever added it would care to add citations that would warrant inclusion. But I agree that it is perhaps to speculative to include without citations.Sylvain1972 (talk) 14:33, 18 May 2010 (UTC)


 * "Hii mori" is word-for-word translation of "lung tai". Just like the English translation "wind horse". It's from the "Lung tai shug so" sutra. The Mongolian name of this exclusively popular sutra is "Hiimoriin san", but it is enchanted in Tibetan. Enchanting this sutra brings luck. Often they say "hii mori lung tai" as a stable phrase. Gantuya eng (talk) 15:50, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

In the Shambhala teachings of Chogyam Trungpa
The extention of his teachings have reached deeply into the bridging of "eastern" and "western" approaches of mental health care in the US and in Europe. There are now two organizations, Windhorse Integrative Mental Health (a non-profit organization) and Windhorse Community Services that use recovery and healing practices based on the writings Chogyam Trungpa and the writings and practices of his student Dr. Edward Podvoll, who wrote Recovering Sanity: A Compassionate Approach to Understanding and Treating Psychosis. I would also suggest the link to these organizational websites under the External Links. Please share your thoughts or questions with me. Jbliss333 (talk) 16:10, 14 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not an advertizing medium. --Latebird (talk) 08:20, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

I think it would be fine to mention the two organizations in passing in the section about Trungpa's take on windhorse.Sylvain1972 (talk) 13:46, 16 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Responding to Latebird: I have the same concern which is why I put it here for people to consider. A couple of thoughts: I did notice a link to a movie called Windhorse on this Wikipedia page already. That is a commercial product to be certain. Also, the "advertising" issue is so tricky. Chogyam Trungpa's writings and efforts, which have many income generating aspects, were offered to help others ease their own suffering and the suffering of others. He also was focused on contributing to an "enlightened society" and being in the world. I believe Wikipedia exists for that same reason.
 * Windhorse Integrative Mental Health is a group of clinicians and peers dedicated to relieving suffering and each worker is receiving remarkably low income for this life's work. I was suggesting this admission not to line anyone's pockets, but to help people find alternative ways of getting help, rather than first turning to the typical hospitalization and intense medication model practiced in the U.S. and many other parts of the world. The approach they use is truely a radical, and yet simple, departure from the way mental health treatment is being practiced today. Jbliss333 (talk) 15:44, 16 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The relevant policy is here. Including a link for the organizations seems to run afoul of Links normally to be avoided #4, "Links to web pages that primarily exist to sell products or services." The service in this case may be a worthy one, but the website does seem constructed primarily to pitch the service--it otherwise is not very informative, with a brief "about us" section, and it isn't relevant how lucrative or not the service may be for the service providers. It is not evident at all from the website, for instance, how the work of the organizations relates to Trungpa's windhorse concept in particular (as opposed to his body of teachings in general), aside from the fact that they use the term in their names.Sylvain1972 (talk) 16:35, 16 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Responding to Sylvain's initial note at the top of this thread;I welcome your support of the "mentioning the two organizations in passing."


 * Responding to Sylvain's thread directly above; There is much to be said about what is the reason that this organization "primarily exists"(refering to #4 on Avoidance Links), it is not to simply sell a service. It is to attempt to alter the way mental heath care is provided in the U.S. and it is based on the transmission of Chogyam Trungpa to Edward Podvoll, his student, also known as "Minjur". You are right to say that the homepage of the website of Windhorse IMH does not explain explicitly that lineage, but to do so would cloud the more important offering of this approach to care and would, for many readers, create a "religous" connection between the philosophy underpining the innovative approach to care that Chogyam Trungpa and Dr. Podvoll founded. For example if one were to read about the 10 skills of Basic Attendance, an important element of this approach under the FAQ tab or to read the ten page Guide for Families offered by Connie Packard under the About Us tab, one would understand more clearly the development of the philosphical "root" of Lungta as it is brought into a practice of caring for someone suffering from an extreme mind state. I am grateful for this discussion and am happy to find the right way to include mention of this transformational approach to mental health care. To close I would ask again to understand how the film "Windhorse" was included in the links? It is a "for profit" product out in the market place. I do not dispute its inclusion, but ask for some understanding about how it has the same access here that I think these organizations deserve.Jbliss333 (talk) 15:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The purpose of this article is to explain the concept of the wind horse. Mentioning arbitrary organisations that happen to endorse that concept in one way or another does not further this goal. In other words: The wind horse may be relevant to those organisations, but the organisations are not relevant to the wind horse. I still don't see why they should be mentioned here. --Latebird (talk) 08:20, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I am trying to understand a personal perception that Latebird appears to hold and the accepted and general usage of Wikipedia. the "purpose" of the this article as he/she says is to explain the concept of wind horse. I do not think that is the only intent of Wikipedia or this article. For example: The "accepted" paragraph about Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche states that he began the Shambhala Trainings. That is true. That is not a concept, but a usage of his application of the term "Windhorse" and that organization's activities are the actions of a non-profit organization dedicated to the transmission of an application of the term Windhorse in society.
 * Other Wikipedia entries of the names of organizations and their usage abound in Wikipedia. The term "Beatles" is the name of a musical group that was created for making money from the "wonderful" music created by these 4 individuals. The Beatles article is about the concept of the term and the application of that term to the actions of four guys. I am not here to discuss or compare the "merits" or "success" of the "known" and "accepted" attributes of this group as compared to this mental health organization, but you can not indiscriminately apply a standard to your own desire for "cleansing" the use of this medium. A description of a for-profit music group as an accepted standard for Wikipedia use is in stark contrast to my request to consider the mention of Chogyam Trungpa's transmission to Dr. Edward Podvoll, to extend the use of the term Windhorse into creating an approach to lessen suffering in the world. To finish I want to ask Latebird why any of thousands of submissions exist in Wikipedia about products such as Rubik's cube, or Nutella, or Lego which are only products for consumption and even provide links to their product websites and long descriptions of their ingredients and popularity. This is not such a submission.
 * Further; I am going to assume moving forward that Sylvain's questions have been resolved by my previous response.75.147.34.141 (talk) 16:02, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia's policies and guidelines are established by the community and not by individual editors. They apply equally to all articles. If you find that one article doesn't meet those requirements, then you can fix that article. But such a problem is never a justification to introduce the same problem in annother article as well. If you can't demonstrate how mentioning your organisation helps our readers to understand the concept of the wind horse, then you must not add it to the article. --Latebird (talk) 08:55, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

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