Talk:Wine bottle/Archive 1

Bocksbeutel
The German Wikipedia in [] states that the name comes from 'Booksbüdel', a Lower German term for Book bag.

4.79.216.98 claimed that the name means 'goat cheeks' but does not provide any cites. While a 'Bock' may be a male sheep or goat, this should be verified first Sejtam 05:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Bottle sizes
I would ask people to re-check if 0.75 Litre can possibly be a "US standard" as is being claimed - it is a Metric unit. Living outside the USA, I personally remember this as a standard well before 1979. The source quoted is a sloppy commercial site (US-based). Added Globalize/USA.

Also, the French article has more detail on the bottle sizes. Can someone help in translation? Samfreed 08:46, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, the names of the wise men are not cannon--apophrycal--i.e. not mentioned in the bible, and thus not technically biblical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.88.170.32 (talk) 23:36, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Split is used (in the US at least) for 1/2 bottles. I think that is the most common usage here. Jeffkw (talk) 17:23, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

It should be noted in the article that previous to the adoption of the 750 mL size in Europe, the standard size was 700 mL. Also the fifth and tenth should be dropped from the list as they are no longer legally produced and have been obsolete for over 30 years. The term fifth is still used colloquially to refer to the 750 mL size. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.105.196.187 (talk) 14:30, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

The section on "size" is really about "volume". "How tall is a standard 750ml wine bottle?" is a size question, "how much wine is in a 'standard' wine bottle?" is a volume question. This section answers the "how much does it hold?" question but not the "how big is it?" question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.254.200.66 (talk) 09:55, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Murgatroyd?
There's a few mentions of an alleged even-larger bottle size called "Murgatroyd" to be found on Google, but most, if sourced at all, just reference Wikipedia (an earlier version of this article, presumably). So... is that one an urban myth or a hoax, or does it actually exist? -- Schneelocke 14:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The Murgatroyd size was also mentioned on the NPR show Says_You!, airing the weekend of January 24, 2009. On this show they describe the bottle size being of English origin, first created by a glass blower and equivalent to 66 bottles of champagne (49.5 L). --Jonathan s hodges (talk) 16:49, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

punt
The reason I've always heard in the wine industry is rather prosaic- it increases the strength of the bottom bottle, so it's less likely to shatter if dropped. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.173.209.74 (talk) 20:49, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I always thought its purpose, at least today, was just a cosmetic one - it keeps the bottle looking "fuller" when its only got about a glass' worth left in it.69.178.138.226 (talk) 17:38, 14 December 2011 (UTC)


 * The article lists many reasons why bottles have punts. Any additions to the list would need to be reliably sourced. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:15, 14 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I fail to see how this feature could be an aid to pouring by providing a place for the thumb. Put your thumb there and it is extremely ackward if not downright impossible to grasp the bottle. Normally one would grasp a bottle by wrapping the fingers around one way and the thumb in the opposite direction; the bottom is not used at all. Wschart (talk) 23:07, 14 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I observe that a punt does help with pouring from the larger heavier bottles, although I put my hand into the punt, not my thumb. For the standard 750ml bottles, there's no advantage to having a punt for pouring. ~Amatulić (talk) 00:43, 15 June 2012 (UTC)


 * The section is too long. 178.38.22.202 (talk) 10:44, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

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Jeroboam and other biblical names
How did they become associated with different sizes of wine bottle? That would be a useful piece of information for the article to contain, if anyone knows. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.82.120.194 (talk) 06:41, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Magnum
I would question Tom Selleck's involvement with the original naming for the Magnum sized bottle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.154.113.11 (talk) 14:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * And rightly so, we apparently had a humorist editing the article. Tomas e (talk) 17:17, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

"Jennie" size
I can't seem to find any references to the "jennie" size of bottle elsewhere on the internet. I've never heard it come up in conversation either. Does anyone have a citation? Jamamala talk to me 16:10, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Also the article says ""White Spirit" in Welsh" which seems a little confusing. The name Jennifer may have derived from White Spirit in Old Welsh (from the same route as Guinivere?) but what is the connection with wine bottles? As far as I know, there is no separate word "Jennie" in modern Welsh, meaning "white spirit" and used to describe 500 cl bottles. I'm not even sure Wales has ever seen such a wine bottle. Or is this trying to say that white spirits are sold in Wales in 500 cl bottles?! Martinevans123 (talk) 18:04, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

History
Is there any information here about when glass bottles first began to be made? Or any important historical milestones in bottle making technology? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.116.217.218 (talk) 11:31, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Corks
My subjective perception is that natural corks have almost disappeared from mass market wines over the last 10 years, being replaced with screw caps or plastic corks. They may still be standard for fine wines, but I'm a cheapskate and usually buy ordinary table wines, and I can't remember the last time I found a natural cork. This is actually a positive development, as cheap natural corks were the source of all sorts of problems. The article doesn't really describe the very widespread use of synthetic corks nowadays, though the alternative wine closures article does cover it. --Ef80 (talk) 16:15, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Cork currently tells us: "Natural cork closures are used for about 80% of the 20 billion bottles of wine produced each year. After a decline in use as wine-stoppers due to the increase in the use of cheaper synthetic alternatives, cork wine-stoppers are making a comeback and currently represent approximately 60% of wine-stoppers today." ...um so, 80% of 20 billion a year = 60% of all bottles that exist? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:35, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I have to say I'm suspicious of those uncited numbers, though there may be a lot of variation between different markets. The UK mass market wine trade is dominated by supermarkets, who seem especially fond of plastic corks and screw caps. --Ef80 (talk) 16:04, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It might be worth adding here that larger bottles, typically used for sparking wines, use flared corks with wired closures? In fact, do bottles of champagne ever use non-cork closures? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:40, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I've seen plastic corks used for budget sparking wines, but it's true they don't seem to be used by true champagne bottlers even at the lower end of the market. --Ef80 (talk) 16:04, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Completely uncited... but cork use varies by origin a lot. Old world wines, particularly French have tended to stick with cork, new world have tended to move to screw top. On sparkling wines the alternative is more often a crown cap than a screw top (again the wine is less likely to spoil, and this is probably a good thing, but tradition is tradition). Imalone (talk) 13:07, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Citation Needed?
The line "the bottle has become a standard unit of volume to describe sales in the wine industry, measuring 750 ml," is followed by a "citation needed" tag. Do we really need one for that? I understand the need for references, but that is verifiable by going to the liquor department of a store. Most of the wine is in 750ml bottles i.e. wine usually comes in bottles and those bottle are usually 750ml, therefore it has become the standard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.98.245.55 (talk) 14:37, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

1 Litre and 700 ml bottles
Wine is often sold in 1 Litre bottles, at least in Germany and Switzerland. I have added this size. Are 700 ml bottles still used, or is this size phased out or only for whisky? Can somebody clarify? TiffaF (talk) 15:32, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Vintage Port
The picture at [] has three Tappit Hens of Vintage Port, all from the Symingtons, and all 210cl, rather than the 2¼l in the current article. Is there any evidence that a Tappit Hen is 225cl?

Indeed, this suggests another point: should the table acquire a row for the Tappit Hen, and a column for Vintage Port? (I’ve seen or owned 375ml, 750ml, 100cl, 150cl magnums, 300cl double magnums, and 600cl Imperials. I also vaguely recall a Niepoort five-litre bottling.)

JDAWiseman (talk) 15:36, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Salmanazar

 * ''Salmanazar : Biblical, Assyrian King

It's reasonable to guess that Shalmaneser V is meant, fitting the Biblical theme of other names; but really, was the name adopted to refer to a specific person, or for its own grandiose sound? I'd remove the tag. —Tamfang (talk) 08:28, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Mordecai
"My stupid edits have been there for years. In fact, my edit suggesting that a large bottle of wine holding he equivalent of 9 regular bottles is called a 'Mordechai' has been in Wikipedia so long (2008) it has been referenced and cross-referenced to the point that it looks completely legit. Trust me, it's not." The entry "Mordecai" was apparently a hoax (see this reddit comment) that persisted for years. There's a lot of other names for sizes there that are unsourced and could equally well be hoaxes for all we know. More references are needed for sure. Jason Quinn (talk) 00:39, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * You beat me to it. This explains why I have been searching for what this reddit comment was referring to for ages without finding anything. Also found this from an IP back in '05 . Suggest we look at whatever user added this mordecai to check their other edits. Also, it could be someone bs'ing, and it is genuine. Acid test, are there any sources to support it which date back to before this mordecai thing was added to Wikipedia? Lesion  23:50, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
 * This was the diff (actually 2009 not 2008) when it was introduced: . "HERT" was removed in the same edit, and the mordechai is said to be equivalent of 12 standard bottles, not 9. IP user had only 2 edits to this page: so nothing else to check. Also note that description of Mordechai was false, "Biblical, Assyrian Queen", and was later corrected by another editor. If this was our "boldman", from Brooklyn (at least at the time of edit), then he has poor recollection of the details, but agree on balance of probability appears to be a hoax. No obvious google search results prior to Dec 31 2008 which support this.  Lesion  00:01, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I think the only good way to proceed here is to rip out all named bottle sizes that do not have a reference. Many of those are suspect but in a way that is hard to know one way or the other. I think we should stipulate that entries in the list have references before they are added. (And references that are from BEFORE the entry was added to prevent circular referencing, and fiction becoming fact.) Jason Quinn (talk) 16:15, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I have restored Nebuchadnezzar to the list. No evidence that it's a hoax, and quite easy to find.-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 01:12, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
 * But we don't know how long that website has been up – it might have just copied Wikipedia. Beware citogenesis! Adrian J. Hunter(talk•contribs) 04:55, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
 * There is no reason at all to believe that to be the case. 'Nebuchadnezzar' was fairly arbitrarily labeled by an editor as a 'hoax' based on nothing but the presence of an entirely unrelated hoax in the list. The 'Mordecai' was much more questionable because its supposed capacity was the same as that of another named size; that is not the case here. The degree of suspicion you're asserting is unfounded, and there's no more reason to call 'Nebuchadnezzar' into question as there is any of the others. The availability of the capacity of 15L bottles is certainly well attested, and it would be considerably unlikely that only that size has been hitherto unnamed.-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 08:19, 13 April 2014 (UTC)


 * You are right. Nebuchadnezzar may be valid. If you care about this, Jeffro77, will you help add sources? The truth is that every unsourced entry in this list is a possible hoax and there is reason to suspect them all. Jason Quinn (talk) 09:56, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I've been aware of these names of wine bottles sizes since before the Wikipedia article existed. I'm also aware that many stores use these various names for wine bottles they sell, and it is exceedingly unlikely they've all been 'duped' by 'Wikipedia' in the recent past. I have provided various sites above of online stores that sell these various sizes of wine bottles under the various names, and I have no reason at all to doubt the veracity of those sites (especially since I already knew of the names). I have no special interest in wine, and am not aware of specific sources from prior to the existence of this article that might assuage the concerns of persons who might still suspect that these bottle terms are not genuine. However, I am quite certain that I am not the only person that already knew of these wine bottle names, and am therefore also quite certain that there should be some aficionado of wineness who can provide some more 'dated' sources.-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 08:27, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I've found a good reliable source on Champagne bottle sizes - the official Champagne Producers' committee's website - and have now cited that for all the Champagne sizes, making a few other changes too. All arises out of discussion at Articles for deletion/Solomon (unit)! Pam  D  22:14, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Salmanazar / Shalmaneser
The 9-litre Salmanazar size is wlinked to Shalmaneser V, but how do we know it was not one of Shalmanesers I to IV? Unless it really is clear-cut, would it not be better to link to the dab page Shalmaneser? Imaginatorium (talk) 19:17, 14 June 2016 (UTC)