Talk:Winter's Tale (novel)

Fair use rationale for Image:MarkHelprin WintersTale.jpg
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Links to other works?
An aug2007 edit gave the following unreferenced statement: the beginning is stolen from Kafka's short story about a white horse.

I have undone this edit, however if it can be verified as either 'stolen' or as a literary reference, it should be included properly. Does anyone have any information? (my own searches have turned up nothing) --Nemo 01:43, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Science-fiction?
I'm curious to know the rationale for classifying this novel as "science-fiction."--Jrimorin 22:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Unless one goes for the old publishers' tradition of lumping SF and fantasy together, this is closer to fantasy than SF, even if it is set in an alternate New York City. I've made the change. -- Orange Mike 15:59, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Historical accuracy
I'd like to add 'Historical Accuracy' (or similar) section, but unsure how best to approach it. Some elements to consider: --Nemo 01:39, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Five Points, Manhattan was a genuine part of NYC at the time
 * The Short Tails, the major gang in the novel, compared to the Shirt Tails - a genuine gang
 * Jackson Mead is portrayed as designer/engineer of many bridges. (including Golden Gate) - who genuinely engineered them?
 * Other locations (esp in Manhattan) mentioned in the novel. The Maritime Cathedral. Printing House Square. The Cemetary for the Honored Dead. ...do these have real world analogies?

I'd say No. Helprin has captured a general aura of period accuracy, but his is a New York City of fantasy- perhaps an alternate city, something like Philip Pullman's world in his Northern Lights trilogy. Helprin rewrites history to suit his plot.74.70.152.28 (talk) 02:44, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, yes: Based on the text of the novel, these places do have real-world analogues. The Maritime Cathedral is likely the Cathedral of St. John the Divine, Printing House Square is clearly Times Square and the Cemetery of the Honored Dead, were you intrepid enough to seek it out, can be found in the city's water-supply tunnels. Ericksommers (talk) 04:42, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Removed reference to Columbia Historical Portrait of New York
I removed the following paragraph from the article:

Peter Lake, or, as he was known "Grand Central Pete" was a real person at the turn of the 19th century in New York, an Irish con-bunko-man and burglar. Other characters are based on real people, including Beverly Penn and Pearly Soames. You can see photographs of many of them in Kouwenhaven's Columbia Historical Portrait of New York.

I have a copy of this book in front of me and can't find any reference to Grand Central Pete (who was a real person) or the other characters. Kouwenhaven has photos of thousands of people; a better citation is required to support the claim that the characters from Winter's Tale are based on these real people. Nandesuka (talk) 17:12, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Followup: added a citation to a New York Times article about Grand Central Pete, which is a name that Helprin explicitly uses in the text.  Still no reference in Kouwenhaven, that I can find.  Nandesuka (talk) 17:31, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Terrible
This article was clearly written by fans of the book, and is not written in an encyclopedic style. This should really be gutted, and then rewritten from an NPOV perspective, as befits an encyclopedia article, with a lot more sources. --- The Old Jacobite The '45  14:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Couldn't agree more. Also, a link to a fictional — or at least fictionalized — 19th-century gang takes the reader to the article about the film 'Gnags of New York' which has nothing to do with the novel, the fictionalized gang (named 'The Short Tails') or the historical gang that seems to have served Helprin as their model ('The Shirt Tails'). Ericksommers (talk) 04:47, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Lake of the Coheeries
I believe that the fictional lake and village are important enough to merit inclusion in the article. I spent quite a while searching for that geographical object, only to finally conclude it did not exit, lol. Wouldn't it be nice to save others from that? Isn't that part of the purpose of an on-line encylcopedia? I am a poor writer, but will add a section to get it started. Unfortunately, I do not have access to the book to detail its (mythical) approximate location (relative to NYC) nor the names of its residents, especially some of the books main characters. I also fail miserably to understand the ****spoiler alert ****>> 'purpose' of the massacre in the village. Surely something has been written about this? Anybody? I would also argue that both Pearly and Hardesty Marratta are important enough to have their own paragraphs. Surely the Short Tails should. Just as surely since his journey from San Francisco takes up the middle part of the book, Hardesty should.216.96.79.121 (talk) 22:09, 7 November 2012 (UTC)