Talk:Wintersun/Archive 1

melodic death metal
Wintersun is melodic death metal. END OF THE FUCKING STORY. Fucking trolls quit changing it to melodic black metal. --Bloody Gore Screamer 00:24, 24 October 2007 (UTC) ---Listen to the song Beautiful Death and say that it's melodic death metal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.157.66.253 (talk) 20:10, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

This ridiculous genre debate
Not folk metal, not melodic black metal, not "extreme power metal", nor anywhere close to progressive metal. I'm so tired of this debate that I won't even fetch a source and just say that whoever thinks this band is something like folk metal or progressive metal needs to simply listen to bands of those genres and compare them to Wintersun so you can see the difference yourself. Either Jari lied to me when he said that they are only melodic death metal with power metal influences, or I'm on crack.

Don't make me need to hunt for the written form of my interview that is over two years old. MrBosnia 00:00, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

What you don't get, is it doesn't matter what Jari said. It doesn't matter what your opinion is. This is wikipedia. This is an online encyclopedia. You need to provide sources. A band like this has many influences, and plays many different styles.  JUST BECAUSE A BAND DOESN'T SOUND EXACTLY LIKE OTHER BANDS IN A GENRE, DOESN'T MEAN IT DOESN'T BELONG TO THE GENRE. Constantly reverting to a version you think is better simply due to opinion does nothing but hurt this page. We've provided credible sources for the genre. Just because they "don't sound like Opeth" doesn't mean they're not prog.

Also, there's a reason we've added the Extreme Power Metal section to the power metal page. It's a style that's been emerging at a pretty fast rate. Unfortunately, some stupid band decided to dub themselves "extreme power metal", and no one's been able to take the genre name seriously since. Bands such as Demoniac, Children of Bodom, Norther, Wintersun and Frozen Eternity have been playing this style for several years, and if you look hard enough, there are tons of underground acts that also play it, but are instead called "power metal with harsh vocals" or "melodic death/power metal". At least read the description. I personally think it sums up at least half of their songs.

Discuss. 209.161.215.28 00:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

You know, this is the part where the other person supplies a next counter-argument, but its not needed, where all is needed to be said to that is "Wrong".

If a band doesn't sound anywhere close to a specific genre it doesn't belong in that genre, as is the case with the genres you claim it is. MrBosnia 01:31, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I think this is the point where I give up on Wikipedia. Idiots like Scipo outweigh the more intelligent we have on this encyclopedia. In addition, the admins simply kick back and enforce rules, and don't give much thought about logic when giving punishments. MrBosnia 22:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

'Unfortunately, some stupid band decided to dub themselves "extreme power metal", and no one's been able to take the genre name seriously since. Bands such as Demoniac, [...]'

Oh, the irony. Have you ever looked the line-up of Demoniac up and compared it with the line-up of the band in question? They've got every right to call themselves "extreme power metal", not only because they drive all the power metal clichés to the extreme, but also because they use aspects of extreme metal such as blast beats, extreme speed, or technicality (in the solos), which isn't surprising given the past of the guitarists. Florian Blaschke (talk) 21:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

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I have edited the page to match the way discographies are commonly listed. I carried the track lists to albums own pages where it wasnt included. Also I changed the main genre as Extreme power metal, included a paragraph in Trivia section explaining why extreme power metal is chosen and made the album pages coherent with this change. If you want more info on extreme power metal and other genre definitions i strongly suggest www.metalstorm.ee Turerkan 15:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't you think that picture of Jari is a little hefty?

I wouldn't say it's hefty as in anything negative. Also, as far as my musical knowledge goes, I still fail to see where the notion of them being melodic death metal stems from. The black and power influences are definately noticable, in some places even folk, but what most knowledgable people I know consider them mainly as is viking metal. Though it varies from Ensiferum, the main elements seem to still be there. Owentheyo 00:25, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Wintersun are definitely not melodic death metal. I'd call them folk/power metal, maybe even black(ened?) folk/power metal, but certainly not melodic death metal. I think people confuse Wintersun with melodic death metal the same way they confuse Children Of Bodom with melodic death metal. Children of Bodom are much closer to melodic death metal than Wintersun are by the way. TheguX 18:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. At least someone is keeping this page in check. Metal Archives seems to have fallen prey to the "power metal + harsh vocals = melodic death" plague, which saddens me. Apart from some slight death metal riffing on Beautiful Death, it's non-existant in the music, and even that song is pretty experimental. Owentheyo 11:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it's because of the "narrative" style of their music - the riffs don't repeat constanly througout the song. It sounds like one big solo, always changing. I've heard that's a characteristic of death metal, so this might be where they got it from. Otherwise, they don't sound death metal to me.

I think that the blast-beats are the main reason people believe there's a death metal influence. And in general Wintersun is pretty extreme, although maintaining strong melodies even through especially-extreme parts. I don't really buy the whole "melodic death metal" tag either, I'm just taking at a stab at why some may. Kendricken 18:06, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

"Prior to popular belief, Wintersun is not a Folk or Viking metal band." :/ Funny, last time I checked, there was plenty of viking metal sound, which should be fairly easy to pick out and hear for anyone who really knows viking metal. Hell, there's even a bit in a Mithotyn song I could swear Wintersun borrowed. I'm assuming said editor's evidence is that Wintersun doesn't sound too much like Ensiferum. Owentheyo

Wintersun is NOT folk metal. How many interviews does it take with jari before people realize that? And also, what about thrash metal?I think they atleast have some elements of that. battle against time, especially: "I feel 'NOTHING, BUT PAIN"etc. etc. with the ear tearing beat behind it, are evidence of that.Dark0805 15:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Progmetal
Wintersun is not a fucking very viking metal to me! Wintersun hav'nt a mytology-lyrics. I agree they have a vikingmetal musical influences in a vocalstyle. Jari Mäenpää says in some interwie: Wintersun is not a fucking vikingmetal! I will play very different material than Ensiferum. Wintersun is a pure progressive metal with many musical influences of many metalgenres and Devin Townsend of course.

Lyrics have what to do with genre? Owentheyo 08:17, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

sorry, but who the fuck put the 'extreme power metal' tag up? last time i checked that was stuff like Kiuas. im not hearing any similarity here... c'mon people stop with the whole melodic death metal/power metal thing. can we not just call em metal? or prog metal at least Actually I'd draw alot of comparisons between Wintersun and Kiuas. And props for knowing Kiuas. :) Owentheyo i have a feeling that the next album will sound more like kiuas. but apart from the occasional keyboard line i don't feel they're all that similar.

Kiuas FTMFW!

Extreme power metal would be a fairly accurate description for Wintersun. It's how MetalStorm would doescribe them. Anyway, Wintersun aren't melodic death metal, there is absolutely nothing death metal in their music. Calling Wintersun "melodic death metal" comes from people who are uneducated (I don't mean that as an insult, there was a time when I would have probably called Wintersun melodeath) in the genres of metal and think that anything that has growled vocals and melody is melodic death metal. It's more complicated than that, and Wintersun are not melodic death metal. I have seen people on other websites claim that Jari said himself that Wintersun are melodic death metal, but I now know that he quite didn't agree with this claim. So, I think it's about time we settled on the name of the genre Wintersun play. I propose something like extreme Power/Viking metal, how does that sound? Also, should we developed the extreme power metal article, or should we just link the word "extreme" to "extreme metal" and "power" to "power metal"? I think it's about time we did this, because currently there's nothing on Wikipedia to document the extreme power metal scene (bands like Children Of Bodom, Wintersun, etc), and someone reading the power metal and extreme metal articles might think that they 're the opposite, and that it's impossible to have power metal with growled vocals or whatever. So, I propose Extreme Power/Viking metal, what do you think of that? Obviously we'd expland on it and explain there's a melodic black metal influence there too. But at the moment every article on Wintersun on Wikipedia claims a different genre of metal, and this keeps changing every day. TheguX 18:06, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Live Album?
The tour edition isn't actually a live album, its the usual CD with a live DVD that comes with it.

Genre problem
Why the hell Wintersun is a called as viking metal or even melodic death metal. There is no really any reasons to considere wintersun as vikingmetal, because: This band have not a lyrics about norsemothology or typical heroic viking battles, they also don't have an Folk-influenced melodies. Also i don't think ,that wintersun are nowhere nearly melodic death metal side because Mäenpää does not a typical growling deathgrunt-sound wich is a essential element of death metal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.112.15.197 (talk) 12:07, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

Yeah, I just noticed some assholes have been screwing with the page. I'll try and fix it. WinterSteel 00:54, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I have somehow managed to establish an opinion as to how the album sounds, but being curious as I am I want to ask you: how would you describe the sound of the band to someone who hasn’t listened to your album yet? Jari: Well it´s difficult to put into a certain genre, cause there’s lots of variation. But to describe it, I would say something like: Extreme Majestic Technical Epic Melodic Metal.

Taken from the interview with Jari on getreadytorock.com (http://www.getreadytorock.com/pure_metal/wintersun_interview.htm) (80.6.39.150 13:04, 1 June 2007 (UTC))

It's not the lyrics but the music which is viking metal... Amon Amarth for instance sings about vikings, but they are no viking metal bands because their music hardly contains any folk elements. Furthermore, Wintersun is neither a progressive- nor a folk metal band. I refer to source n° 4 (http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=19) - they claim, that Wintersun is a prog Metal band, but this can not be taken serious, they just suggest it.

Can not be taken serious???????? Dude Progarchives is world's only relevant and trustworthy site dedicated exclusively to all progressive music. You definitely can't saying that they just suggest it!!!!!!!!

Viking metal is a weird genre, because it needs both the music, and the lyrics to be classified Viking metal. If there are no vikings in the lyrics, then how is it viking? Wouldn't that just make it folk?

As for Wintersun, they have a heavy folk influence. They're not half as folky Ensiferum, but they still have folky parts. Two songs that come to mind are Starchild [the part before "I fall like a burning star..."] and several parts of Sadness and Hate. Also, the intro to Winter Madness on the Wintersun demo sounds just like something Ensiferum would do.

As for prog, Wintersun has: Complex compositional structures, intricate instrumental playing, long, epic songs [although I think they're too short... they're long in they eyes of the mainstream], and are going to do a concept album, Time. 216.154.23.223 03:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

For whoever keeps putting progressive metal and black metal:

I'm not even going to argue how stupidly wrong you are. What I'll just say is listen to a band labeled simply black metal and a band labeled simply progressive metal (Opeth maybe), and then listen to some Wintersun... ahhh... the stupidity unravels. Anyhow, when I interviwed Jari 2 years ago I of course asked him about his band's strange music genre, and he said to me only that "I think we are mainly melodic death metal, with some light power metal influences thrown in".

So did anyone actually bother to read up on Wikipedia's definition of "melodic black metal" before slapping it on as the official genre of Wintersun? Maybe it's just me, but "Melodic black metal is usually slower, and the songs, even though they generally have no choruses, have a more defined structure" just doesn't sound like the epic, speedy, extreme music I've come to know and love in Wintersun. Progressive, "extreme power" (which seems like a contradiction in terms to me, but if it's going to exist then Wintersun fits the bill), Viking, or Melodic Death metal (what I would call this band, as I fail to see how the pitch of one's voice leads to the transcending of genre boundaries) would all be far more fitting. Thoughts?

They are definitely NOT viking metal, no norse mythology in their lyrics etc at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.237.112.167 (talk) 22:46, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

What... the... hell? People, please.
What happened? We had agreed on genres. We had referenced the genres, life was good. Now... we've plunged back into a stupid, ugly and pointless edit war about the genre. WE HAD IT FIGURED OUT. Or... at least we were closer to figuring out what genre this band belongs to than we are now.

1. We all agree there is a power metal influence. That has at least stayed consistent.

2. We had referenced prog, but there were still complaints. Personally, I believe there are prog influences. There are long songs, a coming concept album, and as CircafuciX said "the songs have their break downs and 'intricate styles'".

3. Meloblack was also referenced. Unfortunatley, the site that the reference was on is now dead [or just down at the moment...]. Referring to our own article on Melodic Black Metal, "The style encompasses typical black metal characteristics, such as growled or shrieked vocals, blast beats, and heavily distorted guitars. The music style, however, differs from traditional black metal in several ways. Melodic black metal is usually slower, and the songs, even though they generally have no choruses, have a more defined structure." Not all of that sounds like Wintersun, but quite a bit does. Growled vocals? Check. Blast beats? Check. Wintersun does slow down, they have choruses on a few songs, [not all] and a "more defined structure". I dunno, I'll leave it open to debate.

4. Melodeath. It was discussed, we don't have a reference, people disagreed, that was the end of that. Until now. Please, DISCUSS THIS. Don't make changes, and say you're right because you "interviewed Jari". If you did, that's good. As much as I respect Jari, a musician's word alone does not define a genre. Alexi Laiho doesn't want to be called power metal, but still Bodom is power metal. If Jari came out and said he played "Epic Nu Metal with a bluesy twist" it wouldn't make it so. Discuss, reference, whatever.

5. Folk metal. It's debateable. We had a reference at one point, but from all the edit and reverts, we lost it. In my opinion, there are definite influences. Please don't dismiss it because Wintersun doesn't sound exactly like Ensiferum.

Bottom line: DISCUSS! Holy shit people, random edits, reverts, fixes, and more reverts aren't getting us anywhere. Say before you do. And please, if you can, get sources to back your claims. I'm going to make one last revert, and bring us back to square one. It was our best description to date IMO, it lasted the longest, and it had references. But please, PLEASE... discuss this, and sort out this damn problem. WinterSteel 03:24, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

For whoever keeps putting progressive metal and black metal:

I'm not even going to argue how stupidly wrong you are. What I'll just say is listen to a band labeled simply black metal and a band labeled simply progressive metal (Opeth maybe), and then listen to some Wintersun... ahhh... the stupidity unravels. Anyhow, when I interviwed Jari 2 years ago I of course asked him about his band's strange music genre, and he said to me only that "I think we are mainly melodic death metal, with some light power metal influences thrown in". Mehicdino 01:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC


 * Provide a source. Relevant suorces disagree with you and Jari. Your and artist's opinion is not enough.

You don't get it, do you? Just because you interviewed one of the most amazing men alive, doesn't mean you're completely right. I agree. There are elements of power metal, and there are some elements of melodeath. But there are other elements too.

Also, I KNOW they're not straight prog. I'm not saying that. If I was, then I'd be pushing to get rid of the other genres. So what? They don't sound like Rush, Queensryche, Opeth or Dream Theater. So? That doesn't mean there aren't INFLUENCES or ELEMENTS of prog. Listen to the complexity of Starchild. It's a suite, it has multiple parts, changing rythms, etc. Sadness and Hate, although simpler has quite a few parts, and is much more complex than one would think. It also has the long, epic element many prog songs do. The entire album progresses, it builds up. The end of Sadness and Hate is pretty much the climax of the entire album. It progressed to that point.

Also, melodic black metal is not the same thing as black metal. Dimmu [although not "tr00"] sounds absolutely NOTHING like Mayhem, Emporer, Bathory, Dissection, etc. Melodic black metal has a defined structure. It usually utilizes mellower parts, including acoustics and synths. It's pretty much the same as Melodic Death Metal. Does At The Gates sound like Cannibal Corpse? Hell no. Listen to a meloblack band, and then listen to a plain black metal band... the stupidity unravels.

Instead of insulting people, put more thought into your posts. We're not talking about a band that's simply this genre, or just that genre... we're talking about a band that draws many influences, and incorporates many elements from a wide range of genres.WinterSteel 03:35, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

WinterSteel, I think despite you're apparent knowledge about the entire metal genre, I think you need to take a better look around Wikipedia itself and more particularly bands. Did you know that The Police have over thirty apparent other musical influences in their sound besides just rock? And you don't see all thirty listed like "with influences of raggae, with influences of pop, with influences alternative pop......." Mehicdino 04:09, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

meloblack?????????
Why the hell is Wintersun called melodic black metal or even melodeath???? I agree, that Wintersun is not definitely melodeath, because Jari shrieks, not growls, but still, single shrieks or one or two kinda Gothenburg riffs do not make the band anything to do with melodeath or meloblack!!! Keep in the mind, that what artist said about their music in the interviews do not mean they absolutely playing it. Please, if you putting some link to the genrebox, allways PROVIDE A SUORCE!!!!

nothing with black
I removed melodic black metal link, because, there is no SITES (only one, that was very unreliable and now exist anymore), that has defined Wintersun as, melodic black metal. As i said single melodies, borrowed from melodeath, does'nt make on band melodeath as well as high-pitched harsh vocals does'nt make black metal at all. STOP ADDING the MELODIC BLACK METAL-link, if you had'nt any explanations for adding the melodic black metal-link. I changet it just Melodic Heavy metal. Finally, wich source cosidered Wintersun as melodic black metal? Any explanations?


 * A lot of people consider it black because of the vocal style and the "white" sound of it, but yes it's not black metal due to lyrical content. --Notmyhandle 01:16, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Metalmusic
Please can we leaving this just labelled as metalmusic/Heavy Metal? Obvious, reason is, because, there's always an "edit wars", "discussion wars about classification" and too many many more stupidity "wars". Please STOP THE WAR about the Wintersun CLASSIFICATION! Actually Witersun mix the many elemnts of the metal music including "melodic death metal" (melodie, structures and occasionally growls), musical ideas of "Viking metal", "Blackened thrash metal" (harsh vocals), structures of "progressive metal/rock", "folk" and many many several so on. But actually they are nothing of those labels simply=STOP ADDING, "melodeath", "meloblack", "vikng metal", "prog metal", "folk metal" etc to the genre box. Just Heavy Metal please. And moron kids, go to hell from the wikipedia, listen to some Witersun, listen to some real black metal, viking metal melodic death metal, prog metal too and go back. I stated this because however, i think, that many, many of those who are adding the link-tags, maked the "discussion wars" and generally care for the classification here are just, trolls or little kiddy "wannabe metalheads" such an mallcore kids, who has only heard some new bands such as Children of Bodom, Wintersun, Silpknot or etc, but actually never can not been bothered come out of mallcore fansites, go to some relevant source and see what classification is really. Some older users please, come here and tell for these mallcore kids, what is really definition.

That was painful to read. Must be a typical slayer fan. 209.161.214.86 22:35, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Stop Adding the Melodic black metal tag!
Again! Please, STOP ADDING the MELODICK BLACK METAL tag to infobox and introduction of page! Their predominantly style is probably progressive metal. Use of blackened screams, actually does'nt make any band as being black metal nor the any subject of black metal. Etos

The genre edit frenzy
I am becoming sick and tired of the genre edits here that I just don't care what they are classified by anymore and continue to edit the article normally. I think we are too focused on the actual genre(s) Wintersun is and writing the actual article has become a thing of the past...genre chaos reigns supreme here... We certainly can't find a conclusion here so I think a Musical style headline (like CoB and Kalmah) would do good to this article and add their genre influences, the genres they actually are and some genre tamperings they have gone through. To me it looks like each song has different genre influences and even classical music for some. Their lyrics don't certainly match some genre styles but the musical style does at times. We could just wait until the release of Time and see if the genre changes at all. CircafuciX 20:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I know we're all tired of editing the genre, but do you think we could use Extreme power metal instead? Someone wrote that for a reason. They're also listed like that on Metal Storm. I had it referenced, but someone removed it. 209.161.214.86 22:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no way that Wintersun is Black Metal, or Melodic Black Metal, even the musicians say it is Melodic Death Metal, metal-archives.com says it is Melodic Death Metal, and I am sure a majority of the fans think it is Melodic Death Metal, and that is what the genre classification should be. User:Zac4213


 * Musically Wintersun contains elements of:
 * Ambience/Synth
 * Vocal choruses/chants
 * Melodic harsh and clean vocals
 * Instrumental interludes and "solos"
 * Repeated, short sequences (rhythm guitar in many parts)
 * Blast beats, Dbeats, Double Bass rolls (varying tempos, but nothing that compares to pure death metal)
 * Varied tempos
 * Multi-tracking and a "full" sound (this doesn't define a genre, however).


 * The end result is a black metal sounding album, however it is in no way black metal. It cannot be folk because no elements of folk music are in it (instruments, chord progressions, melodies or otherwise).  If people are thinking the "viking" chants and choruses are folk, then they are off by a long shot.  These chants are what give it that viking touch, but again, it can't be classified as that because these genres (viking/black, a bit of folk) are primarily based upon.  Wintersun's power metal edge comes from the fact that the entire album is sung from a first person perspective, exploring various conflicts and observations, often in an "uplifting" tone that fuses with the viking metal element.  Viking metal is a group based genre, a clan if you will, however power metal is more based upon the self and its inner desires and battles.  Lyrically, additional to these, Jari talks about the destructive elements of nature and such.  It's almost impossible to classify this just because it's everything all at once.  Nothing too prominent, that's why we are having such a problem.


 * Lyrically Wintersun contains (yeah I sort of repeat myself):
 * Imagery of nature - snow, animals, light and darkness.
 * Vocalized chanting
 * Narration
 * Imagery of fate, death, dying, and recovery.
 * Faustian ideas of giving one's soul away in return for power.
 * Recurring metaphors regarding time, sadness, and its effects on the narrator, primarily regarding life.
 * Confusion regarding life and the paths people can take.
 * Ideas about turning away from one's dreams in hopes of seeing other things more clearly.
 * Ideas of self realization and fighting against ignorance (blindness).
 * Ideas of realization and ephiphanies gained from suffering and pain.
 * Cries for help, ideas and imagery of helplessness.
 * Triumphing over death.
 * Love of nature, "giving" one's life to it.


 * Overall the content is hard to discern, since it's primarily metaphorical. If any anti-Christian sentiments reside within, they are not literal making classification under black metal difficult, if at all possible.  Although not unlike most death and gore metal bands, the primary recurring idea in all the lyrics is death.  It's about death, so it could be "death metal" in that pure sense of the word...  Anyways I can go in circles for ages but look, it's EVERYTHING.  It's about nature, it's about death, it's about self, it's about empowerment, it's about togetherness and support (Folk, Death, Black, Power, Viking...), it's whatever the fuck you want it to be.  I say leave it blank.  Don't classify it.  You know why?  It doesn't matter; the article can make up for a lack of genre in describing the music itself, an objective analysis of the music via facts (potentially referenceable).  --Notmyhandle 03:39, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Category
Look, no one doubts Wintersun cobines elements of many genres. To correctly define it you could just say "melodic metal," but there is no doubt it is also melodic death and melodic black (it has many elements of black metal). I mean Jari was in Arthemesia. Altogether, Wintersun is very progressive and has elements from power, thrash, black, folk, viking and death. I think that the genre calssification is fine right now, but it should state something about black metal as I feel that IS a part of Wintersun.Navnløs 22:54, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, the musical style of Wintersun meets about 80% of the black metal definition. --Notmyhandle 08:42, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Sweet. Okay people, no more edit warring about the genres on this page, please. I just checked it today and it seems perfect now... Navnløs 18:35, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Genre(s)
As per the above conversation, there really should be no more changes to the genres of Wintersun. I have added a message in the music infobox in the genre section (you will see this if you edit the page) that states any changes to the genres on Wintersun will be reverted if not supported on this talk page. So hopefully less people will edit the page and instead talk on here. It has already been decided that Wintersun has elements of: extreme power metal, folk metal (which covers the viking metal influence), progressive metal, melodic black metal and melodic death metal. I reall don't think there are any more additions to this needed, or any taken out on that note. If you disagree, state your case here. Know that these above genres are well supported and widely regarded as the right ones by the editors of this page. If you think another genre needs to be included/ taken out, expect to have to argue your point and prove it, too.  Blizzard Beast  ''$ODIN' 23:10, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

All things on wikipedia need sources, including this page. I've found some sources which mention that the band has both folk a poer metal influence, and i left in melo death for comvinence. If anyone can find a reliable source for melo black and porg, they are welcome to add it. 68.63.157.181 (talk) 19:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Satanism + anti-Christianity =black,melo black metal?
I thought (and I may be very wrong here) that lyrically, black/melo black metal bands require frequent use of Satanistic and/or anti-Christianity lyrics. Would the lack (or if anyone finds something in the lyrics)of this subject matter not go a long way to labelling them as part-black/melo black metal or not? Can anyone find anything in the lyrics that may support this notion, or am I way off? JackorKnave
 * Melodic black metal doesn't necessarily have to be about satanism because it can be about other topics such as sorrow, sadness, darkness and even the cosmos and dark magic as well sometimes. Melodic black metal could be about anti Christian-themes and satanism but the musicians won't take it to the extent that black metal musicians do. Also, those themes are not exclusive to bm/melo-black, some death metal bands incorporate it as well and even Black Sabbath have anti-Christian themes early on (or dismiss religion, etc). So that requirement you say is false, melodic black metal bands don't rely exclusively on anti-Christian/satanism themes in the same way melodic death metal bands are not about gore/anti-Christian themes all the time, if ever they are more philosophical than anti-Christian for example. − ₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪  kaiden  04:19, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Lyrics matter very little. Lyrics do not make a genre.  I could talk about white fuzzy bunnie rabbits and still be considered black metal if that is the style I chose to play in.  Musical (instruments and vocal style) make a genre, not what they are talking about.  *starts doing a death grunt and screams deeply about how green grass only makes orange melons mad; guitars play rapid riffs in the backround punctuated by bass and pounding blast beats on the drums*  Still death metal...  Blizzard Beast  ''$ODIN' 22:16, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I know that theistic satanism/anti Christianity is by no means unique to black metal (it's found in thrash, death and groove metal as well), but I thought that it was a large factor in black metal, albeit an ptional one (Pro-Christainity black mtal bands are called "unblack-metal bands because of their lyrical content, so I tought that it was an integral part of the genre). I'm aware that guitar riffs and harsh vocals are also a major part of black metal as well. JackorKnave
 * It definitely started out as a large factor in black metal, but there's plenty of bands who just talk about pagan or nature-type stuff too, kinda like Wintersun. There are many melodic black metal bands who play a lesser part to the whole satanistic thing as well (as opposed to normal black metal). Besides we're talking about a band that's combining a lot of different genres. But as I said, lyrics do not a genre make.  Blizzard Beast  ''$ODIN' 21:54, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

On that note, Blizzard Beast, why are they listed as exteme power metal? I looked up extreme power metal and there is no wikipedia article on it. It is my understanding that Dragonforce coined the term to,in a move of extreme power narcisism, define their own music, and that extreme power metal may not actually be a genre. It isn't even listed as a sub-genre. And while I would be inclined to agree with you on the lyrics/black metal thing, I repeat, why are Christian black metal bands listed as un-black metal? It sounds a bit stupid to create a counter-genre based on lyrical content to me, but there you go...JackorKnave (talk) 17:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Well ,they're not, at least in the infobox. But I agree (at least of yet) that extreme power metal is not a real genre/sub-genre and is, if anything, just a description.  As for your mentions of unblack metal, I, again, agree.  It is just as inane as NSBM and Christian metal, which only refers to lyrics.  In reality NSBM and unblack metal are still black metal.  Just as a Christian thrash metal band is still just thrash metal.  I'm not totally sure why these pages have been created on wikipedia (other than to desribe a movement) but they are not real genres.  If anything they are, again, just descriptions.  Blizzard Beast  ''$ODIN' 21:05, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Official website vandalism?
The link to Wintersun's official page seems to have been changed to something nonsensical. [JackorKnave]

Actually, I just googled the site and the same crap came up. Looks like the entire site is either down or hacked and replaced with the message:

"Sys7ech 0wned y0u

I am alone but not dead ! Sys7ech -vs- Administrators ..to be continued !

Greetz: Furtivo, Pablin77" JackorKnave

Is this true?
"Jari Mäenpää announced in a radio interview that Time would be delayed until early 2009."

Blizard Beast, according to you, this needs to be sourced, so if there are no objections, I'm going to remove it.JackorKnave (talk) 17:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Go right ahead. And, yeah, it needs to be sourced if it's true.  Blizzard Beast  ''$ODIN' 19:23, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Meloblack
I can't see what this is called meloblack. They have nothing with black metal, and if you are counting the shriek vocals, so start changing Carcass and At The Gates to meloblack also because they singers also shriek. Haxxiy (talk) 23:06, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

You guys are all wrong, sorry.
Jari has spoken about the genre of Wintersun’s music, and says “Well it´s difficult to put into a certain genre, cause there’s lots of variation. But to describe it, I would say something like: Extreme Majestic Technical Epic Melodic Metal.” He has also stated “But its really not death metal. Its very difficult even for me to label it, but if somebody would put a gun on my forehead, I would probably say something like Extreme Melodic Majestic Metal.”

And there you have it.

70.41.213.234 (talk) 02:05, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Lol, troll. JackorKnave (talk) 17:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.47.36.38 (talk)

Majestic metal... I like it! Googling brings up the original (?) source of your pentacronic genre : ). I'm sooo completely new to Wiki, but someone destroyed Wintersun's page, or at least the first section. Keraunoscopia (talk) 20:04, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Release Date
Hey all, I'm not sure about the release date at the mo, as the source doesn't really give out much information, it just seems it's closer to guessing the date than actually dating it. That said, I hope it does come out soon..86.43.183.68 (talk) 20:26, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

The most recent estimate that I am aware of is August 2009. H2ostra (talk) 23:10, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, I guess he really DID say that
I included this phrase: "Mäenpää would later describe the music as "Extreme Majestic Technical Epic Melodic Metal" from this interview; I don't know if he was being tongue-in-cheek or not, but could including this sentence be a violation of WP:PRIMARY? Someone can remove it if they desire.  I thought it was "cute." –  Ker αun oςc op ia◁ galaxies  11:54, 28 January 2010 (UTC)


 * In this case he is most likely just being humorous to the interviewer. He is probably trying to debunk genre barriers by placing several adjectives (whom would be ridiculous to be a genre, i.e. "Majestic metal" (I just laugh at the thought) at the start of "metal" to make a mockery of band categorization (though this is what I believe). I don't think it's really a violation of WP:PRIMARY but just that he outright "describes" his band's music while the interviewer does not. I'm not sure about removing it but it seems kind of out of place. I'm aware this may pass an other stuff exists policy (though this is applied to deletion) but other band articles have been called a genre that would never become an article here at Wikipedia - this being mostly in the lead of the article. FireCrystal (talk) 01:25, 29 January 2010 (UTC)


 * You're right, it's very out of place and is probably better suited to the album article, if at all. I've removed it. – Ker αun oςc op ia◁ galaxies  07:07, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

On sourcing
I haven't come across this article before to the best of my knowledge, but there appears to be some confusion over what constitutes a reliable source. Anything the band says about their own genre is immediately disregarded, or we'd b calling Leng Tch'e "razorgrind" and Cradle of Filth "heavy funk". You can't use webzines, as anyone can create a website; that rules out Tartaran Desire, Metal Storm, Metal Archives etc. unless they've had their content independently published elsewhere by a third-party commercial source. I'm not going to mess with the genres fo the time being (I'm only vaguely familiar with the band), but if you want sources for every genre I suggest you find some decent ones. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 11:25, 1 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm fine with that. Mostly, genres were kept as-is when I started working on the article because removing someone's "favorite" genre usually leads to warring or whatever. I didn't think there were enough people watching this article to provide backbone for keeping a consensus as to which genres are reliably sourced... I hope I make sense. In other words, I think I just left well-enough alone at the time. I'm also an advocate for the WP:LDR referencing system, so I may just change this article to that. That would allow you to remove whatever sources (and genres) you want, easily. –  Ker αun oςc op ia◁ galaxies  18:39, 1 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I moved all the references (WP:LDR). –  Ker αun oςc op ia◁ galaxies  21:28, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Extreme metal vs. melodic death metal
Most accurate description of genre is melodic death metal, not the more broad "extreme metal". Whether Jari himself has described the band as extreme metal or not is irrelevant to what the genre actually is and citing a source for basic information like this is unnecessary. It should be described as melodic death metal in the introduction. RCFrank (User talk:RCFrank) 01:25, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Um, please read WP:RS. Your personal opinion is irrelevant. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 19:56, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Please read Wikipedia:Citing Sources. Go to "When to cite sources" and read all of that. Note in particular lines like "Citations are also often discouraged in the lead section of an article, insofar as it summarizes information for which sources are given later in the article, although such things as quotations and particularly controversial statements should be supported by citations even in the lead." This isn't a quotation or controversial statement, it's a basic piece of information about the band. I don't think it's likely to be challanged that Wintersun is a melodic death metal band, which is a much more precise description than the ridiculously broad "extreme metal". RCFrank (User talk:RCFrank) 23:28, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * No offense, but your quotations are irrelevant. Blackmetalbaz is correct. – Kerαu noςco pia ◁ gala xies 04:49, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That post was pointless. At least explain yourself or you're wasting time. How is it irrelevant, you're not supposed to cite sources in the intro for basic pieces of information like that. Also, extreme metal is stupidly broad, they are melodic death metal primarily, even if they share some aspects of other genres, that's the main genre. Even look at all the other languages this article is in, they all describe it as melodic death metal with influences from other genres. RCFrank (User talk:RCFrank) 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It is far from obvious that "melodic death metal" is the most commonly sourced genre going by what is contained within the rest of the article. The reason "extreme metal" was originally introduced into the lede was for precisely that reason. I have no objection to you removing the citation from the lede, but would have a huge objection to you changing the genre (see WP:GENRE WARRIOR) unless there was a very clear journalistic consensus - which doesn't exist. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 11:00, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Melodic death metal is more precise though. Extreme metal is so broad it could mean practically anything. Yeah, they share small aspects of power metal and maybe some other genres, but the main style is melodic death, death vocals with melodic guitar lines, fast riffing, and blast beats. RCFrank (User talk:RCFrank) 28 August 2012
 * In your opinion, possibly. You'd have to find a journalistic consensus. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 10:44, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't symphonic metal at least be considered now? Time I certainly has symphonic metal elements. 100loves (talk) 15:15, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Elements? With all those tinkling keyboards, it sounds like Oceanborn. That's not to knock it, quite the opposite, and it's an awesome album anyway, but come on, it's just silly snobism that prevents metalheads from acknowledging that Wintersun has always been more like power metal – or now symphonic power metal – with extreme metal elements (and vocals) rather than the other way round ... Well, or you could also call it progressive metal, but really, there are few metal genres that Wintersun isn't influenced by. Just sayin'. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:15, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Skimpe
Skimpe keeps changing the genres to Pop Punk and Emo. Clearly vandalizing this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.202.7.197 (talk) 18:31, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

You clearly know nothing about music. Please stop reverting my edits before you are banned. Skimpe (talk) 18:44, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

@Skimpe Is that why you're the one who has been banned? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.202.7.197 (talk) 23:41, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

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