Talk:Wisconsin State College of Milwaukee

A question of history
There seems some controversy over exactly when University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee was founded.

If it was in 1956, then this is a predecessor institution. If 1885, then this is UWM by another name. The infobox at University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee gives both dates.

It's really just a matter of terminology, but it seems to matter a lot to some people. Unfortunately, for simplicity in naming and phrasing our articles, we need to jump one way or the other.

But I'm sure we haven't heard the last of this. Andrewa 03:12, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=419946 reads in part (quoting Jim Price, who wants to change the name to Wisconsin State University):

"It's not like we're betting all of our chips on the referendum," said Price, pointing out that UWM is actually the sixth name for the school.

Those five former names presumable refer to the State College and earlier institutions. Andrewa 06:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

From http://www.deadspin.com/sports/preview%20capsules/index.xml :

''The Wisconsin-Milwaukee Panthers have not always been the Wisconsin-Milwaukee Panthers. The university has been known as Milwaukee State Normal School, Wisconsin State Teachers College, Wisconsin State College of Milwaukee and finally UW-M. The nicknames: Normals, Cardinals and Green Gulls.''

More food for thought. Andrewa 06:19, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, Miaers is the only one I have encountered who claims that UWM is not the successor institution to MSNS, MSTC, and WSC-M. (He also deleted the UWM alumnus category tag from a half-dozen of our alumni recently; then moved my note about it from his talk page to his talk page archive, within about one-hundred seconds of my posting it.) -- Orange Mike 17:00, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I think you have done the right thing by restoring the alumni categories of the people who are graduates os more than one university. Maiers rather shot from the hip here; They should be in more than one category, as they now are.


 * Maiers doesn't deny that MSNS etc are predecessor institutions (his term) of UWM, he's just denying that they are the same institution as far as I can see.


 * I would think that having the two dates in the infobox at University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee would mean that it was the same institution prior to the second date, but in a significantly different form. That seems to fit the history well. MSNS (etc) has a special relationship to UWM that, for example, the UW extension merged with UWM at the same time doesn't have, otherwise we'd either list the foundation date of the UW extension in the infobox instead of that of MSNS, or just leave the first date out completely.


 * It's a complex and fascinating story, with some lessons to be learned by academic administrators. In glorious hindsight, calling the fledgling UW system University of Wisconsin in 1956 was a bit clumsy IMO. Andrewa 19:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

The two numbers in UWM infobox reflect the official numbers on its seal. Other numbers are all inaccurate creative works. WSCM was merged into that time University of Wisconsin and the UW-Extension at Milwaukee became part of the new UW-Milwaukee in 1956. The article doesn't say University of Wisconsin was a system before the merger. Miaers 20:20, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The presence of the two dates on the seal would indicate to me the earlier was the founding date of the institution, while the later was the date of the current organisation, under its current name and of course seal. But as I've said before, either founding date makes sense, and I don't think it matters a lot which we use just so long as we are clear what we mean by it.


 * I imagine that the reason the article doesn't say University of Wisconsin was a system before the merger is that that's quite correct, it wasn't. Nobody has suggested that it was AFAIK, so the relevance of your comment escapes me. Andrewa 01:01, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I really don't see the difference between institution and organization. It is really no big deal. There should be two numbers. Miaers 16:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree there should be two numbers. But there's a lot going on here.


 * Obviously we have no control over how many numbers there are on the seal. But why should there be two numbers in the infobox? And what I'm interested in here is information. We all know it's your opinion. What are the documents and other sources that support this opinion? Are there official explanations of the two numbers on the seal? What do they say? Have they been mentioned in speeches by significant UWM people (introductory lectures for new students, for example)? What did they say? Andrewa 19:47, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * All sorted out I think, see the introduction to History of the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. Andrewa 23:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * PS But regarding how many numbers there should be in the infobox, see Talk:University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. Andrewa 17:51, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Some sections to add
We probably should have sections on each of the college's former names, viz. Milwaukee State Normal School and Milwaukee State Teacher’s College, both of which now redirect here. These originally pointed to University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee but there is strong opposition to having redirect targets in the introduction to that article, which is one of the reasons I started this one. I suspect that the current article name and Wisconsin State College–Milwaukee (which also now redirects here) are different forms of the same name. Andrewa 03:24, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * If you make sections for Milwaukee State Normal School and Milwaukee State Teacher’s College, there should also be a section for Wisconsin State College of Milwaukee then. I really don't think there is much contents for each of them.Miaers 21:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed that the history of WSCM belongs in this article, certainly as currently titled! There are several possible section titles, again in view of the current article title. It may take a while for the contents to arrive, but I expect there is an interesting and instructive story to be told. Andrewa 00:49, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

More on names
I notice that http://www.uwmpost.com/article/c58b6a040bf450fc010bfc273f890006 uses the names Wisconsin Normal School and Wisconsin State College of Milwaukee. Andrewa 05:47, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I've chosen Wisconsin State College of Milwaukee as the name for this article that seems best to me, but I think that a case can also be made for Wisconsin State College-Milwaukee, Milwaukee Normal School and Milwaukee State Normal School as being the article name rather than redirects. I'd think that Milwaukee State Teachers College was a less suitable name, as this name only occurs midway through the history of the institution. I'd prefer either the original or the final name, and in each case there are two competing candidates for this, both with some currency in the literature. Andrewa 19:47, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Notable people
Removed text:


 * Mary D. Bradford, member of the Board of Visitors from 1892.

Can anyone give me any reason she shouldn't be listed in this article? Andrewa 20:18, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think it is meaningful to list visitors here. Miaers 21:56, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Not meaningful, in your opinion? Is that all? Andrewa 17:33, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Board of Visitors
Board of Visitors is not a familiar term to me, but I was assuming it was an American name for the governing board of an institution. This seems to be born out by for example http://www.virginia.edu/bov/ which reads in part ''The Rector and Visitors serve as the corporate board for the University of Virginia, and are responsible for the long-term planning of the University. The Board approves the policies and budget of the University, and is entrusted with the preservation of the University's many traditions, including the Honor System.''

Any information as to what the role of a board member of the Normal School might have been? Andrewa 17:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * In this, as in many things, the Commonwealth of Virginia is unique in terming what in most states would be "regents" their "Board of Visitors." In U.S. non-profit organizations, especially educational ones, a Board of Visitors is or was often made up of persons of note who are not administrators of the organization (board of directors, etc.) but instead act as advisors and wandering inspectors, checking in to see whether the operations of the organization are functioning as they should, although I believe the inspectorial aspect has diminished in recent years. So the Board of Visitors would have operated as a sort of supplement to the Regents of the normal school system. Examples:

"The Board of Visitors serves NC State University by providing advice to the Chancellor, and through the Chancellor, to the Board of Trustees." "The Board of Visitors is a group of business leaders who provide expertise, advice, and resources to enhance the quality of education in business and management for the College." "The Seaver Board of Visitors supports and advances the mission of Pepperdine University. As ambassadors for Seaver College, board members serve as advisors to the dean and faculty, provide career preparation and exploration opportunities for students, introduce leaders in the business community to Pepperdine, and assist with public relations on a national and global level." "The function of Fuqua's Board of Visitors is to provide information and recommendations to the Committee for Academic Affairs of Duke University's Board of Trustees on matters relating to the Fuqua School of Business. This board gives informal advice and assistance to the school about the curriculum, facilities, operations and any other matter deemed appropriate by the Board of Visitors." "Members of the board are appointed by the Dean and are selected for their distinction as leaders in law, business, and service to the public, and demonstrated commitment to the school. They meet as a group once each year to discuss a wide range of issues including the legal profession, legal education, short-term and long-term plans for Stanford Law School, and ongoing concerns in areas related to student admissions and careers, curricular initiatives, faculty research, alumni and constituent involvement, and resource needs. The Board's input is critical to maintaining the School's strong tradition of academic excellence." etc., etc. and so forth. -- Orange Mike 15:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Orangemike, although I did find the formatting of the above a little confusing... it looked at first like two posts, the first of them unsigned.


 * Then Maiers may be right, Bradford's connection with the Normal School may not be terribly relevant. I wonder how we can find out? Andrewa 20:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Meantime, I've added a little of the above to the Board of governors article. It probably belongs at University of Virginia too, which seems to have no section on its governance. Andrewa 00:02, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmmm... I may have misunderstood what you wrote above... it seems that the College of William and Mary, also in Virginia, has a similar Board of Visitors. But you did refer to the State, rather than the particular university. Getting there! Andrewa 01:33, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Usually, people list presidents or faculties not board members. Miaers 21:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Is this from Wikipedia policies and guidelines, from your observation of a significant number of good Wikipedia articles (have a look at Featured articles and you might also notice that University of Wisconsin-Madison was recently rejected), or just another of your strong personal feelings?


 * WP:NOT is relevant IMO. If you claim that this information doesn't belong in this particular article, where do you think it belongs?


 * Ironically, this particular article was created in the first place to resolve the problem that you were removing valid content from the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee article; You opposed its creation at that time, on the grounds that separate articles on the history of UWM weren't needed. The main UWM article is IMO not even up to the standard of the UW one; Wouldn't it be better use of your time to improve it, rather than quibbling about topics which you claim aren't interesting anyway? Andrewa 20:25, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

deletion of wisconsin state college of milwaukee
this page is pretty stupid to have, because it basically is part of the university of wisconsin-milwaukee. so it would be nice to just delete the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JS1988c (talk • contribs) 19:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * UW-M was created by the merger of the old WSC and the Milwaukee Extension division of UW. There's no harm in having the full information available. -- Orange Mike  |  Talk  01:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Green Gulls basketball scores
The insertion of this whacking gigantic table puts undue emphasis on the Green Gulls' men's basketball team, at the expense of the entire rest of the history of the school. That is why I have to concur that the scores should stay out. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  01:27, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I totally agree. ZKPilot (talk) 02:14, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Milwaukee State
I just found three articles that explicitly refer to the school as Milwaukee State during the time when its official name was Wisconsin State College of Milwaukee. This is consistent with how many of the schools in the similarly named California State University are referred to today (i.e. California State University, Fresno is much better known simply as "Fresno State") and think this should probably be made more clear in the article.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1499&dat=19540126&id=IQMaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vyMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6234,4771620

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=IsgVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mw8EAAAAIBAJ&pg=3897,1656850&dq=milwaukee+state+green+gulls&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=IsgVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mw8EAAAAIBAJ&pg=3897,1656850&dq=milwaukee+state+green+gulls&hl=en — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.89.251.115 (talk) 05:53, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Notable alumni section
Per Wikipipedia guidelines, a person must have their own Wikipedia artcle in order to establish notability. I removed Ross A Lewis from this section because he does not meet that guideline. The information I removed is: Ross A. Lewis ('23), Pulitzer Prize-winning editorial cartoonist --BuzyBody (talk) 22:05, 21 November 2013 (UTC)