Talk:Witch-king of Angmar/Archives/2009/October

Undead
In "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields", the narration says, "No other blade... would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh..." So whatever "undead" means, I think the Lord of the Nazgûl qualifies. &mdash;JerryFriedman (Talk) 03:59, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Undead the topic specifically refers to people who have died and are still animated. The lord of the Nazgûl does not fit this description having never died. Adding him to the category is original research, changing the meaning of the text to fit the description that you want. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 06:55, 24 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry, saying that by "undead" Tolkien meant "undead" is not OR or changing the meaning of the text, and I don't want any particular definition.
 * I didn't look anything up since I didn't think categories needed citations, but since you mention OR, here are some citations for the Nazgûl being undead.,, , , and others that you can see by searching GB for "Tolkien undead".
 * On my talk page, you wrote, "...the Nazgûl are not dead, a key factor in the inclusion in the commonly accepted meaning of 'Undead'". Having been dead is indeed part of one definition I found: "Now esp., (of a supernatural being, esp. a vampire) technically dead but still animate." (NSOED, 1993).  However, two other definitions are less specific: "no longer alive but animated by a supernatural force, as a vampire or zombie" (Dictionary.com, based on the Random House Unabridged) and "No longer living but supernaturally animated, as a zombie." (American Heritage&mdash;both definitions are at Dictionary.com.  Merriam-Webster bizarrely defines it only as a noun, a vampire or zombie, both of which as usually understood have been dead.)
 * The Nazgûl Lord is certainly animated by a supernatural force, "the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will", so according to the latter two definitions, the question is whether he's still alive. I can see why you say he never died, since the process they went through seems to be gradual, although "they entered into the realm of shadows" may mean some transition from alive to not alive.  (Or it may not.)  However, Éowyn uses the definition of "undead" as "not alive"&mdash;"For living or dark undead, I will smite you..."  She's presumably not an expert, but I see no reason Tolkien would take an ironic attitude toward her knowledge here, the narration's use of "undead" a couple pages later looks very much like settling the question she raised.
 * In addition, the word "wraith" isn't usually used about living people (except as a figure of speech). As Tolkien knew perfectly well, the original uses were of a ghost and of an illusory figure of a living person, in Gavin Douglas's translation of the Aeneid, where Juno creates an image of Aeneas


 * Sic like as, that they say, in diuers placis,
 * The wrathis walkis of goistis that are dede...


 * Thiddir went this wrayth or schaddo of Enee...


 * (Some may want a modernization: "Such like as, that they say, in diverse places,/ The wraiths walk of ghosts that are dead... Thither went this wraith or shadow of Aeneas...")
 * In short, I can see some doubt about whether Tolkien meant the Ringwraiths to be undead in what you consider the commonly used sense, but with citations that they're undead, I think the benefit of the doubt goes with his words. Also, the sense you consider "commonly used" seems to be more limited than some dictionaries' view, which does fit the Nazgûl. &mdash;JerryFriedman  (Talk) 17:16, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Awesome, I stand corrected and will update the article accordingly Carl Sixsmith (talk) 18:41, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking care of it. &mdash;JerryFriedman (Talk) 00:39, 25 October 2009 (UTC)