Talk:Wolfe Tone Societies

Creation
I have created this article page and redirected from Wolfe Tone Society because the originator of that page obviously didn't know about the Wolfe Tone Societies of the 1960's. This article concentrates on those but has plenty of scope for including the London based Society formed in 1984 as it is very much related. SonofSetanta (talk) 15:58, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Copyright issues
Tell me what they are and I will resolve them. I am a daily contributor and have plenty of time to spend on the article. Restore the article with the suspect text either hidden or tagged and it will be sorted out within a few minutes. SonofSetanta (talk) 11:11, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Rewrite
Rewrite here: Talk:Wolfe Tone Societies/Temp SonofSetanta (talk) 16:18, 13 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Further amendments made as per the text from the old Wolfe Tone Society text which wasn't added by me in the first place. SonofSetanta (talk) 13:12, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Rewrite complete
All errors fixed, nothing new identified. Please restore the article. SonofSetanta (talk) 11:35, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Hello SonofSetanta. The article at Talk:Wolfe Tone Societies/Temp contains material copy-pasted from the sources, same as the material I just deleted. It cannot be used. You need to re-write the material using your own words. -- Diannaa (talk) 22:16, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. I used my own words. If there is any issue, then it's my fault. Mabuska (talk) 00:05, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: English, pages 85, 86, 91; http://www.iol.ie/~rjtechne/century130703/1960s/wtsconst.htm; http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/crights/nicra/nicra781.htm. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Diannaa (talk) 22:16, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Text transferred from temporary page
It looks to me as if Dianna made an error when restoring the article. Instead of transferring the rewritten text from Talk:Wolfe Tone Societies/Temp she has used an historical version from this article and blanked sections as necessary but leaving copyvio text in at Wolfe_Tone_Societies. I have now moved the text from the temporary page to here. I had already left Dianna a message asking her to check her restoration of the page but as I have had no reply yet I have decided to move the revised text and leave her a message letting her know I've done so.

If anyone has any concerns about the viability of any of the text now being used please let me know and I will deal with it straight away, although I'm fairly confident it's all ok now. SonofSetanta (talk) 11:52, 16 August 2013 (UTC)


 * There was still some potential copyvio in the "Formation" section so I reworded the whole thing to be more different. I also merged two sections together as you don't really need lots of sections, sometimes a good beefy section can deal with what several small insubstantial ones can. Mabuska (talk) 13:29, 16 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Excellent. Thank you so much.  SonofSetanta (talk) 15:18, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

RfC
RfC made here. I'm confused about the methodology used here. SonofSetanta (talk) 12:06, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * RfC withdrawn. SonofSetanta (talk)


 * I've marked the page as patrolled per my rights as an Autopatroller. At present it meets the demands required of a new article unlike others. Mabuska (talk) 00:04, 17 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you. As it stands it's enough to meet the requirements of any reader.  The reason I created it was because the original page Wolfe Tone Society only covered the London branch and would have given readers the impression that there was only ever one Wolfe Tone Society.  Given that the original article was created in 2006 I can't understand why someone didn't intervene before.  There are enough Irish editors on Wikipedia after all. Maybe it's because the good Irish editors were concentrating their efforts in the wrong areas? SonofSetanta (talk) 08:46, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * You'd be surprised how many articles in the Wikiproject have little contributions to even from the POV brigade. Mabuska (talk) 11:36, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I am surprised. This article, in my opinion, is vitally important to the development of NICRA, the troubles and the proroguing of the NI Parliament.  Why the hell did nobody include it before now?  SonofSetanta (talk) 12:54, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Citing and references
I've just been reading through this article, and I've noticed a couple of issues which I will address for you. The one which caught my eye first was this sentence here:

"One of the key intellectuals who joined the societies was Roy Johnston, a Protestant Irish nationalist who sought to encourage Protestants in Northern Ireland to support the nationalist cause."

Upon checking the source, I noticed that it says that "Crucial to Cathal Goulding's leftist shift was the influence upon him of certain key intellectuals, including Roy Johnston..." it goes on to describe Johnston's fathers Protestant Irish Nationalism and echoing his fathers tradition of looking for Ulster Protestants to join the Irish National movement.

So the reference dose not support the sentence at all. From reading a number of talk pages it seems appropriate not changes such things as this without noting it here and I hope I have explained it sufficiently above. As I'm not sure what the intension was with the sentence, I'll remove it as being incorrect. Dr Daly (talk) 18:36, 19 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Is this blog here an acceptable reference for an academic encyclopedia? I do hope not! While some may be very exercised with grammar, my bug bear is accuracy in referencing and citing sources. I do hope this will not be an issue. Dr Daly (talk) 18:44, 19 August 2013 (UTC)


 * This search engine here is surly not an acceptable referenced source?Dr Daly (talk) 18:51, 19 August 2013 (UTC)


 * A sentence referenced to this publication here was unsupportable. No mention of support for this organizations policies were mentioned in the article. I'm very perturbed by this lack of oversight on this article, as a number of articles I read and subjected to the very same level of scrutiny have been very admirable. --Dr Daly (talk) 19:02, 19 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I've amended another sentence due to it being cited incorrectly. I've left the name Londenderry despite it being cited as Derry. If this was incorrect I can change it. Dr Daly (talk) 19:33, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I removed the following: The London society also has the support of Labour MP John McDonnell, who not long after being elected gave a speech at a Bobby Sands commemoration at the Camden Irish Centre in 1997. that was not supported by the citation you mentioned above. If there are other sources for this material, that would be useful. --Malerooster (talk) 00:52, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Would this suffice as a citation for that material? --Malerooster (talk) 00:58, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * never mind, that was not related to this article. --Malerooster (talk) 01:03, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Dr Daly I'm a little confused about why you've made some of your edits and have had to restore copy because I find your reasons for deletion in some cases to be less than convincing. In doing so I've changed some of the original wording, which may have caught your eye in the first place, but if that was behind your reasoning may I suggest that, in future, you look for ways to retain copy instead of deleting it, unless it is overtly POV or suffers from a major flaw - which I certainly didn't see in the article.


 * Oh, one other thing. The naming convention on Wikipedia for Derry/Londonderry is simple.  If it's the city and environs, it's Derry.  If it's the geographical county, it's Londonderry.  In this case it is clearly County Londonderry. SonofSetanta (talk) 08:02, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I hoped I'd illustrated the issue above well enough by presenting the information from the source cited while being succinct. It appeared self-evident that the information was an amalgamation of various phrases which were unrelated. For example, Johnston was the intellectual who influenced Goulding, becoming Johnston the intellectual who joined the WS. Johnston’s father the Protestant nationalist becomes Johnston the Protestant nationalist. This is a major flaw in basic citation, and I removed the information. That you replaced it without amendment, correction or even an explanation I find perplexing, is this normal? I wish to lend some of my experience to the encyclopedia but this is not the reaction I expected. Dr Daly (talk) 17:47, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

A couple of those sources I added in. Firstly: "Upon checking the source, I noticed that it says that "Crucial to Cathal Goulding's leftist shift was the influence upon him of certain key intellectuals, including Roy Johnston..." it goes on to describe Johnston's fathers Protestant Irish Nationalism and echoing his fathers tradition of looking for Ulster Protestants to join the Irish National movement." - does echoing his fathers tradition of looking for Ulster Protestants to join the Irish National movement not thus make him a Protestant nationalist? He wouldn't be doing that if he was a Unionist. So the citation is correct for the statement.

The abebooks citation is valid as it gives an overview of the book. The description it states is from the book, and whilst not the best source at least it is description on a book by the WST itself. I'm sure they know how to describe themselves.

The sources could be improved however can you prove that what they say is inaccurate or unreliable? So far you have not. Mabuska (talk) 20:43, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * However considering the fact you are only active on Wikipedia by a couple of days, I'll assume good faith that your not used to the site and its ways. Yet I will do my best not to assume that you may be a WP:SOCK of another user currently trying to disrupt SoS seeing as your only edits are to this quite recently created page which is linked only to a couple of articles. Quite curious behaviour. Mabuska (talk) 20:53, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Having said that we can amend the Johnston bit, as we don't need to say he is an Irish nationalist if he is trying to convince people to its cause as it would be heavily implied. Mabuska (talk) 21:50, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


 * However: "A sentence referenced to this publication here was unsupportable. No mention of support for this organizations policies were mentioned in the article. I'm very perturbed by this lack of oversight on this article, as a number of articles I read and subjected to the very same level of scrutiny have been very admirable. --Dr Daly (talk) 19:02, 19 August 2013 (UTC)" - did you read the article?

"He told the gathering that the Wolfe Tone Society was proud to reiterate its support for Sinn Féin saying that 'Republicans from all over have been able to see through the recent onslaught for what it is — an attempt to demonise Sinn Féin and prevent further growth and support for them'."


 * Maybe it doesn't state policies explicitly, but to support a party you ergo support their policies! If you didn't then you don't support the party on the basis of logic. But it does quite clearly state WST's support for Sinn Fein which is what SoS amended the article to say, to which I also tweaked. Mabuska (talk) 22:04, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


 * The group at the Reliable sources Noticeboard agree that the two references I pointed to above were unacceptable for this academic encyclopedia. The references need to be replaced, or the information removed.
 * Johnston's father was a Liberal Home Ruler, as the cited source clearly states, and Johnston is describe as that 'little-noted Irish subculture:Trinity College nationalism.' It also clearly says that Johnston was 'in part' continuing his father's Protestant Irish nationalism so again, the issue remains.
 * As it did not explicitly state that it supported its policies, it should not have said that it did. For example, did it support all its policies, most of its policies or some of its policies. The assumption that it did, is not a logical assumption to make.
 * Assuming that because I've only recently registered an account that I've never edited before illustrates why unsupported evidence based assumptions should not be used in an academic encyclopedia. For example, it would be incorrect for me to assume that we all have the book being cited, evidenced by the fact that the issue remains. Dr Daly (talk) 17:30, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Well if your confident in what you've learnt so far then be WP:BOLD and make the change to what the source states. Though you do not have to remove information if it is not cited or the cite is wrong - you simply add a (a citation needed) tag to it so someone can add one to it if they have one. Mabuska (talk) 20:01, 21 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Out of curiousity I hope you'll take a look at Mr Johnston's own Wikipedia entry and scrutinize it accordingly: Roy Johnston. I think there is a major primary source there in a self-publication whilst various statements don't have a cite after them. I look forward to working with you on this article as well. Mabuska (talk) 20:07, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Out of it
From my perspective it's no longer worth my while to debate semantics about this article. I have no interest in the WTS - at all. I started the page because there was a gap in the progression of modern history in Northern Ireland and I'm happy that it now fulfills the role. Who Roy Johnson was, or who his father was and what they did doesn't interest me nor does the nitty gritty of who said what to whom. So fill yer boots boys! SonofSetanta (talk) 13:33, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Dr Sock Daly seems to have faded away as well. I've no interest either, I just wanted to give you a hand sort out the copyvios which I succeeded in. Mabuska (talk) 21:52, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Let's get it fixed
Please highlight the issues you have found with the sources and the statements they are attributed too, and we will work at resolving those issues. In light of the above, we may as well start afresh, and as some things have been amended, it would be better to deal with as if it's a new issue. Mabuska (talk) 13:16, 27 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I have found two articles which should be useful and make the process less problematic. One is on citing sources and the other is a section in the article on verifiability . Can we just be clear and establish that we both have the book Armed Struggle;– A History of the IRA, MacMillan, London 2003, ISBN 1-4050-0108-9  so we can address the problems I raised above. In light of the opinions at the Reliable sources/Noticeboard  as too the acceptability of the two sources I highlighted above, can we agree that they fail the criteria and should be removed.--Dr Daly (talk) 17:02, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I do not own the book and didn't add it into the article as I had no access to it, not sure who did. I know well of those two articles.
 * The two references you are on about I'm guessing are: this and this. The first is definitely not a good reference and I should have known better than to use it, even it was a makeshift source until a better one could be found. The second one I still don't think is bad, but the input at the RS/N doesn't agree, so it must go.
 * I edited the article to remove these two sources and replaced them with citation needed tags. To make any content less unchallengeable (sources are primarily to backup potentially challenge-able claims), I removed the Francie Molloy bit, I think it's suffice to state Sinn Fein for now with a citation needed tag, seeing as he is a member of the party.
 * Also for some things a citation tag may not be needed depending on how commonly known it is. See the sky is blue for details. Mabuska (talk) 21:13, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Then again others would argue that it needs sourced. Mabuska (talk) 21:15, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Anything else that needs to be addressed? Mabuska (talk) 13:22, 10 September 2013 (UTC)