Talk:Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart and the Catholic Church

Objections
I judge that a strong effort is being made to use the life of Mozart as a brief for Roman Catholicism, and that this is unencyclopedic and serves our readers poorly. The kind of discussion inserted here does not appear in legitimate biographies of Mozart. Opus33 (talk) 16:27, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * As to the first statement, I do not see how a discussion of the religious beliefs of an individual committed to a particular belief system amounts to a "brief" for that religion, so long as the discussion is presented even-handedly. Moreover, the discussion of Mozart's religious beliefs in particular is hardly unencyclopedic, in light of the fact that the Cambridge Mozart Encyclopedia devotes two whole pages to Mozart's religious beliefs.  Finally, this sort of discussion does appear in legitimate biographies of Mozart, especially in the most comprehensive ones, such as those by Hermann Abert and Robert Gutman.-Schlier22 (talk) 02:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Please suggest some concrete ways in which the article ought to be changed.-129.74.108.157 (talk) 0:01, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Hello, what is at issue is a long sequence of letters, none given in context, all expressing religious devotion. These create a false impression, I believe; namely that Mozart lived in a mental state of unceasing religious ardor (as did, perhaps, Joan of Arc or Gerard Manley Hopkins).  In fact, to the extent that we have any evidence, it appears that what occupied Mozart's mind constantly was music; see the quotation in Mozart's compositional method.


 * My proposed solution is as follows: it's fine to quote the letters, but quotations should come from published biographies, with the biographer quoted along with the letter, to provide suitable backdrop.  Perhaps Abert and Gutman's work, mentioned by Schlier22, would be suitable sources.  Opus33 (talk) 21:01, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * In Maynard Solomon's book 'Mozart: A Life' it says that he was attacked by two clergymen however he manages to get away. Also, the book states that he left the freemasons because of arrogance reverting to the use of "muck." 69.159.0.231 (talk) 02:52, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Last rites
"According to Gutman, the reason for the priests' delay, or failure, in attending to Mozart was due to confusion. Constanze, who had sent Sophie to find a priest to administer last rites for her husband, wanted "a priest to arrive alone, as if on a passing, spontaneous sick call," in order to spare Mozart "the alarm at the sight and sounds of the last rites in full form—sextons ringing bells as they escorted a cleric in vestments." It is likely that the priests' tardiness was due to Sophie's failure to explain Constanze's strategy, or, in any case, her inability to communicate to him the urgency of the situation."

This of course is complete hogwash of the classic Gutman brand. There was no confusion, because Mozart was in no condition to be alarmed by "sounds of the last rites in full form—sextons" anyway. Gutman's claim that there was a "strategy by Constanze" is simply false. The priest just was late, that's all.--Suessmayr (talk) 18:14, 10 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I checked the English version of Sophie's memoir in Deutsch (1965:525), which says, "My poor sister came after me and begged me for heavens' sake to go to the priests at St Peter's and ask [one of] the priests to come, as if on a chance visit." I would guess that Gutman has added a free embellishment of the last few words of this? Or did he misunderstand Sophie's words entirely? It would be nice if Suessmayr would offer clarification on this point.


 * In any event, embellishments added by biographers for vividness don't belong in an encyclopedia, even if they are based on a factual core. I'll take the Gutman paragraph out and quote Sophie instead. Opus33 (talk) 21:00, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Opus33: I don't mind including the Solomon quote, but in that case you're asking for others to include opposing scholarly quotes portraying Mozart as extremely devout. The fact is, to all appearances Mozart was a practicing Roman Catholic; that's all we know. The only real evidence we have to suggest any deviation from orthodoxy is his statement to the effect that he didn't consider eating meat on fast days to be a great sin. Halliwell's reference to "impatience" and MacIntyre's "freethinking" more than capture this point. On the other hand, Solomon's quote is nonsense; where is the evidence that Mozart thought it was acceptable to dispense with the priesthood? You found it acceptable to question Gutman's claims; why not apply the same standard to Solomon? Schlier22 (talk) 00:16, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Suessmayr: You wrote above that "Gutman's claim that there was a 'strategy by Constanze' is simply false." How could you possibly know this? Sophie is quoted as claiming Constanze wanted the priests to come "as if on a chance visit," which if anything supports the assertion that Constanze had a strategy. At any rate, I concur with Opus33's decision to remove the Gutman quote here, since there is simply not enough evidence to determine whether Constanze had a strategy or not.Schlier22 (talk) 00:50, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Keeping original title
The original article covered more than just Mozart's own religious views, including his upbringing and his receipt of an award from the Pope. Opus33 (talk) 15:48, 27 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you for starting this discussion, Opus33! In the future, be sure to not cut and paste articles as a method of moving them; it splits up the article's edit history, which can be very problematic. I have repaired the edit history by undoing the cut-and-paste move. Could you elaborate on why you feel "Religious views of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart" is not an appropriate title for this article? Surely Mozart's religious upbringing is directly related to his religious views; any article about an individual's religious views should include information about what that person was raised to believe. Likewise, the award from the Pope was given to Mozart because he showed "no small signs of faith and devotion"; this event is again directly relevant to Mozart's religious views. The title "Religious views of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart" is much more consistent with other articles about individuals' religious views (ex. Religious views of Charles Darwin, Religious views of Albert Einstein), and also avoids the problematic use of "and" in the original title of the article. What are your thoughts? Neelix (talk) 21:11, 29 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I believe that your case that the article centers around Mozart's religious views is not strong. For instance, your argument assumes without evidence that the Pope had actual information about the degree of the teenage Mozart's faith, rather than just dispensing the boilerplate language that would be common in conferring papal knighthood. You've also ignored the section on Mozart's liturgical work, which cannot be taken to bear on his beliefs in any way; huge numbers of composers wrote religious music simply because the Church was a major employer of composers.  I believe you've also missed a main point of the discussion of Leopold, which was that Roman Catholicism served as a cudgel in his hand when he sought (as he frequently did) to chastise his son.


 * The overall point is that Catholicism was a dominating element in the culture Mozart inhabited and would have played a huge role in Mozart's life even if, inwardly, he didn't believe a word of it -- for such a dominating institution, belief is almost beside the point. For this reason I would appreciate your undoing your title change (using correct procedure, of course). Opus33 (talk) 02:30, 30 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm not assuming anything about the Pope's knowledge. The fact that the award at the very least purportedly reflected Mozart's religious faith and devotion is sufficient justification for including it on an article about his religious views; any of the articles about religious views by person would be remiss not to include such information. I disagree with the idea that the section about Mozart's liturgical works is irrelevant to his religious views; there has been plenty of scholarly investigation into how Mozart's religious views shaped his liturgical works. Furthermore, you have not addressed my arguments for the current title and against the old one. If I have not succeeded in convincing you that "Religious views of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart" is the best title for this article, you may wish to consider opening a formal move discussion. Neelix (talk) 20:40, 30 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Nothing could possibly convince you and I am giving up. Opus33 (talk) 23:45, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Why does this article exist?
This article appears to say "Mozart was a catholic". Unless I've missed it, no interesting nuances appear. So why does the article exist? William M. Connolley (talk) 17:43, 19 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks for raising this question. I dislike this article too, because so much of it reads like a quarrel between editors.


 * On the other hand, there is some stuff in this article that normally gets covered in standard biographies of Mozart. This include Leopold's stern warning to his son that he risked hellfire; or the fact that the Pope gave Mozart a knighthood; or the fact that Mozart got cruelly bullied as a young man seeking a job; or that he wrote an awful lot of religious music. I'd be happy eliminating this article if we can move the legitimate information elsewhere.   Opus33 (talk) 20:32, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The article was created in November 2007 by Opus33 with the edit summary: "Moved from the main Mozart article, to keep the latter within reasonable size and to give this material room to grow." I think moving this material from the main article has contributed greatly to the stability of that article, just as the article Mozart's nationality, also created by Opus33, has. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:13, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Michael, now I remember. If you look at the edits on Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart for the period just before then, you will find a sort of war-of-religion taking place. My euphemistic edit summary might be translated "let's get this ugly partisan edit-warring off the main Mozart article and into a less conspicuous place."  Opus33 (talk) 16:43, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

A quote from Mozart's letter - revealing his beliefs in a nutshell
Mozart's letters reveal an man capable of variety characteristics and emotions. The most important issues, such as seeking truth and also believing in truth, are not only discernible, they are self-evident, even if he as an artistic personality was prone to occasional emotional outburst's and quarrels with individual clerics. Furthermore, Nikolaus Harnoncourt strongly believes that 'Mozart deeply understood the Catholic service from the beginning of his career. Mozart's church music is deeply Catholic and full of inspiration. David Vickers from the Royal Manchester College of Music has written penetratively on the subject. One of his Mannheim letters not only reveal the the ideas and conflict intervowen into the Enlightenment, but his beliefs in a nutshell. "I have always had God before my eyes," and added "I know myself, and I have such a sense of religion that I shall never do anything which I would not do before the whole world; but I am alarmed at the very thoughts of being in the society of people, during my journey, whose mode of thinking is so entirely different from mine (and from that of all good people). But of course they must do as they please. I have no heart to travel with them, nor could I enjoy one pleasant hour, nor know what to talk about; for, in short, I have no great confidence in them. Friends who have no religion cannot be long our friends. I think the before mention encapsulates his temeperant and veracity and should in my humble opinion be included. Veritas odit moras Mr. Bench Press (talk) 15:04, 16 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks for pointing this out, but I would also like to note that there is reason for skepticism. Mozart wrote this in 1778 to his father Leopold, at a time of great personal tension between the two.  He had every reason to say what he hoped would obtain his father's approval, and the father already had a track record of urging strict religious observance on his son, sometimes in quite harsh tones. So I don't think this could go in without providing a lot of contextualization. See the work of Mozart scholar David Schroeder on the need for caution in taking Mozart's letters (especially to Leopold) literally.  Opus33 (talk) 16:04, 16 August 2017 (UTC)