Talk:Wolverine (character)/Archive 1

Page name
"Wolverine (Marvel Character)"? The standard seems to be either "SomeCharacter (superhero)", "SomeCharacter (Marvel Comics)" or "SomeCharacter (comics)", so it should probably get moved to one of those. I personally favor simplicity, i.e. the last in this case, except for true name collisions (such as Captain Marvel). ("superhero" I think is not so useful because some characters fall on the edge of being a hero or villain.) -mhr 04:06, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)


 * Exactly! I've considered some of those same points. See Talk:List_of_Marvel_Comics_characters. --Lowellian 04:45, Nov 25, 2003 (UTC)

immortality
"I don't like how it was made clear before my correction that Wolverine is not immortal. In Wolverine #175 and #176 Wolverine dies and then is revived. In the currently unfinished Venom mini-series Wolverine survives an atomic bomb, and on many, many occasions he has been set on fire or bled profussaly." (unsigned, left by User:24.174.216.231 00:41, 12 December 2003)

Vital Statistics
I removed the following from the article because I really don't think RPG stats belong in Wikipedia. Since large numbers of these "vital stats" sections have been added to various articles, I'm using Talk:Strength level (comics) to discuss this issue in general. Bryan 08:33, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Vital Statistics

 * Name: Logan, possibly James Howlett
 * Aliases: Weapon X, Patch, Death
 * Group Affiliation: X-Men, Alpha Flight, Fantastic Four (back-up roster)
 * Height: 5' 3"
 * Weight: 300 lbs. (195 lbs plus skeleton)
 * Eyes: Brown
 * Hair: Dark
 * Intelligence Level- Above Normal or Greater
 * Strength Level- Enhanced Human (can military press 800 lbs.)
 * Reflexes- Enhanced Human
 * Agility- Enhanced Human
 * Endurance- Superhuman Regenerative
 * Stamina- Metahuman
 * Speed- Athlete


 * Special Skills and Abilities: Speaks several languages fluently. Skilled pilot.  Skilled in virtually all fighting styles known on Earth.  Extensively trained in covert operations such as assassination, computer hacking, and survelliance.  These abilities suggest high intelligence and keen intuitive powers.


 * Special Powers: Possesses an unbreakable skeleton reinforced with adamantium and 6 retractable adamantium claws (3 on each hand) that can cut through any substance. Adamantium is a significant advantage in that it is virtually unbreakable.  Additionally, a blow from Wolverine is weighted (like being struck by a steel pipe). Superhuman regenerative healing factor allows for Wolverine to heal from injuries nearly instantaneously.  He is immune to poisons, disease, and natural fatigue.  The aging process is retarded in his physiology to an unknown extent, resulting in extended longevity.  It has been speculated that he is older than 120 years. Possesses olfactory sense only slightly less developed than that of Daredevil, as such Wolverine can track a human as a dog could, and can see in the dark.

"superhuman powers"
I've just cleaned up this section's factual innaccuracies and redundancy. There may be a lot I've missed. (unsigned, left by User:195.92.67.67 07:13, 28 December 2004)


 * 1) 450's. Anyhow, his bone claws were incapable of penetrating the Hulk's hide. However, in Incredible Hulk #340 Wolverine's claws were infused with Adamantium and went through the Hulk as if he were made of butter. Another example of that would be Wolverine #145. During an issue of the "Secret Wars" storyline that took place in 1980 I believe, Wolverine's Adamantium claws were able to slice the Silver Surfer wide open. During the recent Thor storyline where Thor, empowered by the Odinpower, and the Asgardians were in control of Earth, Wolverine's Adamantium claws cut out Thor's left eye and sliced his left arm clean off. Ummm...let's see....I believe that it was in Fantastic four #170 that Wolverine's Adamantium claws, easily, slashed the Thing across the face. The Thing wore a kind of hood over his face for several gay issues after that until the slash wounds were healed. As far as materials go, I've seen Wolverine's Adamantium claws cut any solid material ever put before them. The Sentinels are composed of highly durable materials, some plastics and metals, but they've never proven much of a problem, nor has Iron Man's armor, nor have various types of blades and guns, etc. The only material that I've observed to be resistant to Wolverine's claws is Adamantium itself

All these individuals are some of the physically toughest in the Marvel Universe. Their bodies are much much tougher, especially the Hulk and the Surfer, than conventional materials and it's doubtful that Wolverine's bone claws could cause much, if any, damage to them.

As far as Wolverine possessing, or not possessing, superhuman strength, that's a matter that can be easily debated. I personally believe he possesses some degree of enhanced strength, with the Adamantium-infused skeleton. In the first issue of his monthly comic book series back in 1988, Wolverine lifted what appears to be at least a half dozen men above his head and supports their weight, with only one arm. Now, if each one of those men weighs somewhere between 150 and 200 pounds, that would indicate that Wolverine is supporting somewhere between 900 and 1,200 pounds on one arm. During the late 90's, there was a Wolverine one shot titled "Wolverine: Black Rio". Wolverine was captured and chained to a wall by a vampire female named Ezra. Wolverine ripped the chains out of the wall before going on to overpower her.

Granted, demonstrations of any degree of superhuman strength from Wolverine is extremely rare, mostly because he relies on physical toughness, ferocity, and skill rather than strength, kinda like Sabretooth. Wolverine is no great powerhouse, but I feel he's stronger than lots of readers often believe. Thanks for listening to me ramble, this is a lotta fun. :)   (unsigned, left by User:IRON^HAND 04:07, 31 March 2005)


 * I wouldn't be surprised if most or all of the anon-added "Superhuman Powers" sections are directly copied from a Handbook or Marvel Encyclopedia. I've reverted several such additions and rewritten the relevant sections so as to not be actual or potential copyvios. -Sean Curtin 01:46, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)


 * Trimmed it down substantially, while keeping most of the info SoM 15:39, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Where you get the idea that all or most of the information I added necessarily had to be "directly copied" from the Handbooks, I don't know. You certainly didn't provide any reasoning for this quite serious accusation, and any reading of the Handbooks will show that very little of what I added was from them, and what little that was was rewritten in my own words, and with proper attribution, which makes it nowhere near anything resembling copyright violation, unless you're prone to simply making up your own definitions of copy vio. -Nightscream (as User:198.31.189.134)


 * For the record, if you look, that post predates your first edit - is the edit I was referring to. And it's considered rude to post as an anon if you have a ID already.


 * I (and other people) keep editing yours down because it's too long, unreadable and unencyclopediac. - SoM 17:03, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion as to the post. As for anonymity, I did not post anonymously on purporse. I signed up for an account, and assumed I was visible with my username. Wikipedia is not very user-friendly with respect to how to use its various utilities, or how to communicate to others, so I don't know why I wasn't visible as Nightscream. As for my additions, it is not too long, it is most certainly not "unreadable" and whether it is "unencyclopedic" is entirely a matter of your opinion. Encyclopedias should ideally contain as much pertinent information as possible, and that's all I did. The only people who may find it "unreadable" are illiterates who hate reading. Assertions of its length or other whimsical statements are entirely a matter of opinion. Wikipedia should diplay as much information as possible for those who want it. Not simply fit the tastes or vanities of one individual user. When I added a section on Alleged Continuity Problems to the "Star Trek Enterprise" page, it wasn't deleted; someone simply moved it to its own linked page. Discussions of the contradictions of Wolverine's healing factor or strength could've been dealt with thus, instead of with blatant censorship. (unsigned, posted by User:198.31.189.134 22:17, 1 April 2005)


 * Fairly obvious - he cut through the muscle, tendons, cartlege (sp?), etc holding the bones together. He wouldn't have to slice the bones themselves for it to work.
 * Oh, and please sign your posts on Talk pages in future, huh. - SoM 01:23, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Another strange aspect of Wolverine's powers and attributes can be found in the Ultimate X-Men series, where Ultimate Wolverine chops off Ultimate Sabretooth's head. How could he cut through an adamantium-laced neck with adamantium claws? (Ultimate X-Men Vol. 6 (Millar/ Kubert): Return of the King #26-33) Yet he could not cut through the adamantium bars on his cell in (Ultimate X-Men Vol. 1 (writer: Millar/ artist: Kubert): The Tomorrow People #1-6) (unsigned, left my User:Morpheus2004 on 01:19, 13 April 2005)

Claws: bone or adamantium?
Are Wolverine's claws made of "the same dense bone as the rest of his skeleton," or are they adamantium? The description of the "Origin" comic implies that Wolverine was born with his claws or developed them naturally. Are they bone plated with adamantium? I imagine this whole thing may involve some retroconning... like his claws were initially concieved as an adamantium addition, but Origin made them bone. TomTheHand 17:48, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)


 * That retcon came about long before Origin. There was a sort-of hint in Weapon X itself (the scientists are confused about the adamantium pooling in his forearms), and it's made 100% clear in Fatal Attractions when Magneto actually rips the metal from his body. He spent about 6 years (real time, not comic-time) with bone claws (& bone skeleton) before he got new metal for good. They're admantium-laced bone like the rest of his skeleton. SoM 17:57, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

In the wepon X miniseries by Barry Windsor Smith there is a CT scan of his forearm and the Professor states that the claws are fused to muscle and tissue. That is the first mention of this retcon.

When Chris CLaremont was writing X-Men he consistantly described the Claws as "pure adamantium claws in a bionic housing in his forearm". Furthermore, when wolverine was torched by a Sentinel in the original "Days Of Future Past" you can clearly see a "terminator" like robotic skeleton with the bionic housing plainly visible.

If Chris Claremont wrote a Wolverine origin i feel he would have stayed with this line of thinking as opposed to the "bone claw" scenario.- Bryan Cicalese(Comic Dork)

Anti Hero Stuff.
As far as I'm concerned, Wolverine is only  one  more Anti Hero. There have been anti heroes as far back as Batman, Batman himself being THE anti hero... For more examples, check out Mickey Spillane's Mike Hammer or Tiger Mann; The Incredible Hulk is a glowing 'example of an anti hero.' (unsigned, left by User:Michael Reiter on 15:07, 1 May 2005)

Adamantium Inconsistencies
Wolverine being able to decapitate Sabretooth in Ultimate X-Men is another example of something extraorinary happening without any sort of explanation. Adamantium is the most durable material in the Marvel Universe. Period. In the mainstream Marvel Universe, Adamantium is the only substance that I've seen that Wolverine's Adamantium claws can't cut. Sabretooth being decapitated was probably just a mistake that happened because nobody checked things out. Adamantium can't hurt Adamantium. That's just how it's supposed to be. (unsigned, left by User:IRON^HAND on 03:06, 16 May 2005)


 * 1) Ultimate Universe, not MU.
 * 2) Millar established adamantium in the UU - ergo he could do whatever he wanted with it (and it was explicitly described as semi-indestructible (not that that makes any particular sense, but the intention that it's not completely indestructible is clear).
 * 3) He probably cut through the stuff between/around the bones anyway.
 * 4) Sign your posts. - SoM 17:41, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Anti-Heroes
To me, an anti-hero is somebody that can be just as easily labled a criminal as the criminals that he or she is against and will attack those criminals with lethal force if necessary. Wolverine is the definition of an anti-hero in comic books. From his appearance, to his speech, to his attitude, to his mannerisms, to his point of view on justice, he is the polar opposite of what a classic superhero is supposed to be. To me, an anti-hero is someone that believes and persues justice even when it conflicts with the acceptable law enforcment and judical practices. To them, simply because it's law doesn't make it justice.

Characters like Batman don't fit that same mold. Batman will not kill his opponents, despite the consequences he might face on down the line. Batman is practically endorsed by the Gotham City Police Department and the governments of DC Comics' version of Earth. Like Superman, Wonder Woman, and the other members of the Justice League of America, Batman is praised as a champion for truth and justice. True, he's not nearly as reveared as many of his fellow League members, but he's far more respected in his universe than Wolverine is in his.

An anti-hero could be considered another kind of villain, just depends on your point of view. In real life, some would consider a man like The Punisher to be a hero on a personal crusade against crime. Some would applaud his ultra-violent method of dealing with dangerous criminals that would as likely try to end his life, or the lives of innocent people, as to give him the time of day. Some would consider him to be a monster no better than the criminal element he wages war against, a violent psychopath that should be kept in a padded room for the rest of his life. The Punisher, Wolverine, Elektra, Lobo, Deadpool, and numerous others could be placed in this category. In comic books, any mentally unhinged individual can put on some unusual costume and spend his or her life fighting "evil", but only a certain few can descend to the same level as that "evil" and do whatever is necessary to take it out. (unsigned, left by User:IRON^HAND on 03:06, 16 May 2005)

Xavier Protocols
Charles Xavier's dream is a world of peaceful coexistence between superhuman mutants and ordinary humans and has even taken precautions against those, namely his X-Men and the various X-teams that he has been associated with over the years. The Xavier Protocols act as a kind of failsafe to use against himself or his associates should they ever become a danger to humanity and/or life itself. Evidently, there are over 200 entries with one file for each of the X-Men and the spin-off X-teams. The files contain both the known weaknesses of the subjects, but also recommends strategies for the fastest and most efficient means of killing them.

These files were first mentioned in Uncanny X-Men #335 and were first accessed in Excaliber #100. Only three of the files were fully shown and the files were those of Xavier himself, Cable, and Wolverine. Wolverine's file read as follows:

"Since the loss of his Adamantium, Wolverine has become more and less of a threat. He is divested of his unbreakable skeleton- but his senses and his mutant healing factor have increased to, even more, incredible levels. What might have been a lethal wound to Wolverine three years ago would now be a momentary annoyance. Any assault on Wolverine, in the event of his sanity breaking, would have to be long-range and decisive. His head would have to be severed, and removed utterly from the vicinity of his body to prevent swift flesh and nerve regrowth."

Xavier wrote this file sometime after Magneto magnetically ripped the Adamantium from Wolverine's skeleton and after his healing factor began to develop beyond it's original levels. Wolverine's healing factor is hindered somewhat by the presence of the Adamantium in his body. Wolverine's body was able to heal somewhat faster just prior to his skeleton becoming bonded to Adamantium once again at the hands of Apocalypse and is slightly slower now, but still works faster than when Wolverine's bones were first infused with the alloy. Since his skeleton is once again bonded with Adamantium, Xavier's strategy of decaptitating Wolverine is now useless and it's not known if Xavier updated the file and formed a new strategy or even if he still has the files at all. (unsigned, left by User:IRON^HAND on 18:49, 18 May 2005) (User:SoM later removed this section)

History
(From Marvel.com--perhaps some chap could make this not violate copyright?)

"James Howlett, the mutant now known as Wolverine, was born into privilege in Alberta, Canada, during the late 19th century, the second son of John and Elizabeth Howlett. Young James' mother was distant and remote due to the untimely death of her first son. Growing up, the sickly James was close friends with the red-headed Rose, his companion and tutor, and 'Dog,' the son of the Howlett's cruel groundskeeper Thomas Logan." "Dog's growing obsession with Rose finally prompted him to attack her -- forcing James' father to fire Thomas, and evict him and Dog from their home on the Howlett estate. The groundskeeper and his son stole into the mansion the next night and attempted to convince Mrs. Howlett to leave with them. Apparently, Thomas and Elizabeth Howlett had been engaged in an ongoing affair. When John Howlett interrupted their discussion, Thomas shot and killed his former employer. At the shock of seeing his father murdered, James manifested his latent mutant abilities, and bone claws jutted from the back of each hand. The beast within the boy unleashed at last, James attacked and killed Thomas, and slashed Dog's face. Completely unhinged by the violence, Elizabeth took her own life. James suffered a severe breakdown; his mutant abilities 'healed' his mind as well as his body, blocking all memories of his last months at the Howlett estate. Because Rose and James were blamed for the deaths at the mansion, she spirited him away to a British Columbia mining colony. Rose gave James the name 'Logan,' so that his real identity would remain unknown. The frail 'Logan' grew into a strapping young man at the mine and became known for his strength and ferocity. He spent a great deal of time among the wolves in the nearby wilderness, discovering he had more in common with the wild beasts than his fellow man. Bullied incessantly, Logan acquired the nickname 'Wolverine' thanks to his tenacity and refusal to back down from a challenge." "Logan's happiness at the camp came to an end when Dog tracked him down. Finally remembering the night of his father's death, Logan fought Dog savagely. During the struggle, Logan accidentally impaled Rose on his claws, killing her. Wracked by grief over the death of the woman he truly loved, he fled into the woods. Logan was not seen again for many years, but the legend of the man called Wolverine had begun. The rest of Logan's life is shrouded in mystery, peppered with half-truths and anecdotal reports of unconfirmed sightings. His healing factor seems to act against the effects of aging -- which would explain why, as a man of more than 120 years, he appears to be in his mid-30s. In the latter half of the 20th century, the Canadian government subjected Logan to a bizarre battery of experiments intended to forge the ultimate killing machine. Weapon X scientists grafted the indestructible metal adamantium to Logan's skeleton and bone claws, and introduced memory implants that shaped his past to suit their ends. Combined with the earlier effects of his healing factor, these false memories have made it impossible for Logan to discern fact from fiction when recalling his former life. He now knows little of his past, save that it was fraught with pain and loss. Wolverine was working as an operative for the Canadian government when he accepted Professor X's offer to join the X-Men. Logan chose to stay on partly due to his belief in Xavier's vision for the coexistence of humans and mutants, and partly because of his attraction to Jean Grey. During his time with the X-Men, Logan has worked to regain his lost memories, but virtually every answer leads him to even more new questions." "Although he would rarely admit it, Logan remains with the X-Men because he feels the team is the closest thing he has to a family in the world. Serving with the X-Men has given Logan what he had been missing for so long: a cause worth fighting for. Still somewhat uncontrollable and unpredictable in battle, and prone to an occasional berserker rage, Wolverine has proven to be a tremendous asset to the team; he continues to make his home in Xavier's mansion. Beneath his brutish exterior, Wolverine will always be the scared, insecure boy who lashed out at the world all those years ago, doomed never to make peace with his troubled past. Haunted by half-forgotten demons, he fights for those who can't fight for themselves -- kindred spirits, victims all."

(unsigned, left by User:206.156.242.39 on 19:14, 1 June 2005)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 21:01, 4 May 2016 (UTC)