Talk:Wolverine (character)/Archive 4

Affiliations
You cannot put Black Cat, Spider-Man, and the Punisher under affiliations because Wolverine has teamed up with them, unless that pairing was given a name (i.e. "Heroes For Hire" for Luke Cage and Iron Fist).Solofire6 17:02, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

"References" vs. "External links"
Hiya. Great article here; lots of good info.

The reason I've changed "External links" back to "References" comes from these verbatim sections of Cite_sources. (Please note in Item 2 below that the italics are theirs, and not inserted by me. Thanks.)

1)
 * Complete citations in a "References" section


 * Complete citations, also called "references," are collected at the end of the article under a ==References== heading. Under this heading, list the comprehensive reference information as a bulleted (*) list, one bullet per reference work.

2)
 * External links/Further reading


 * The ==External links== or ==Further reading== section is placed after the references section, and offers books, articles, and links to websites related to the topic that might be of interest to the reader, but which have not been used as sources for the article. Where there is a references section, editors may prefer to call the external links section "further reading," because the references section may also contain external links, and the further reading section may contain items that are not online.

So sources used to write an article go under "References", and other helpful citations go under "External links" if they're linkable and "Further reading" if they're not online. — Tenebrae 04:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Significant issues
Not only the first appearance should be shown, but most sigificant issues and that under a separate headline, or special sidebar (alternate under the other general information in the main sidebar). Like this:

First appearance : (as Wolverine, cameo) Incredible Hulk Vol. 2 #180 (1974), (as Wolverine, fully) : Incredible Hulk Vol. 2 #181 (1974), (as Patch) Marvel Comics Presents #72 (1991), (as Death) Astonishin X-Men Vol. 2 #1 (1999)

Significant issues : joined Alpha Flight; Alpha Fligh Special Vol. 2, (1992), first joined X-Men; Giant Size X-Men #1 (1975), first Called "Logan"; X-Men Vol. 1 #103 (1977)...

This information I got from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: X-Men 2004, but it is avalible at quite many places, as well as possible to find out one self (even if a bit hard, but many can give little...) This should accually be done with all comic characters but one has to start somewhere...

Wolverine's other Origin
I am suprise that no one have added any source of information on this origin. I thought I have added it a while back, but it may have been deleted. Anyways, in the reprinted issue of the Incredible Hulk 180, there is an extensive interview by cockrum where he goes in detail of Wolverine's origin and why it have changed. I think the high evolutionary storyline changed when they got new writers, where they didn't like the idea but I don't remember. i decided to buy the comic on ebay (my brother has the comic, but I don't know where he put it at.)--Doomzaber 22:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Healing Factor Description Inconsistancies
On the Healing Factor specific page, it is noted that Wolvie has Metahuman Regenerative powers, defined as allowing him to regrow lost limbs. However, in the description of his powers on this page, it says that he is unable to regrow his lost limbs. I know this has been gone over before, but in my read through the archives I did not see that the issue was ever really put to bed. Maybe I just missed it, I don't know. I know that the depiction of his healing abilities has changed depending on the artists, but where is it explicitly stated that he cannot regrow lost limbs? I know that it is depicted this way in the AoA timeline, but that is not Earth-616, and thus, his powers could be different there.

Given the inconsistancies in the depictions of his healing ability and strength, and how contentious an issue this is for many fans, would it be out of the question to propose a section following the description of his skills and abilities which notes the range of intensities his powers have gone through over time? It could include specific examples from the comics themselves, as well as from other Marvel source materiel. In this way, we could encompass the power variables in one section, allowing a point-counterpoint examination of evidence, while leaving the majority of the article untouched (and thus, not subject to the edit/reversion wars that this article has been subject to in the past). What does everyone else think? &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.89.171.253 (talk &bull; contribs).


 * I think it would be lengthy and overfocusing on minutia. I also think that the difference between "Metahuman regenerative" and "Superhuman regenerative" in the eyes of the Average Reader is... nil. - SoM 23:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I suppose you are correct, and it is already mentioned both in the description of his healing factor and strength that the intensities of those aspects of his powers has changed from writer to writer, so I guess just forget I mentioned it.

It's something that hasn't really been resolved if you think about it. According to the "Superhuman Regenerative" definition, a character is able to regenerate large amounts of tissue but not limbs or organs. It was the mention of organs that has stuck with me. The "Metahuman Regenerative" describes a character being able to regenerate large amounts of tissue and limbs or organs. The definition doesn't make any specification between which types of organs a character could and couldn't regegenerate, it simply states organs. Wolverine is a character that has regenerated completely gouged out eyes on numerous occassions. I'm not going to raise a stink over it or anything, I'm satisfied with the compromises that have been made regarding the description of the character and his healing abilities listed here on Wikipedia. However, given the facts, it would honestly appear that Wolverine's mutant healing factor potentially operates on the "Metahuman Regenerative" level. If I'm not mistaken, the Wolverine villain Cyber was listed at having a healing factor that's listed as "Superhuman Regenerative", and wasn't able to regenerate a gouged out eye he lost.


 * Actually, if you read the discussion section in the healing factor article you would know the answer to this. In the appendix of the marvel universe it stated that superhuman regenerative did not apply to the regeneration of VITAL organs. An eye is not a VITAL organ. Cyber was listed as Metahuman due to his adamantium skin and regenerative due to his enhanced regenerative healing factor.


 * The definition as related to a character who's durability is listed under "Superhuman Regenerative" states that a character isn't capable of regenerating organs.  It doesn't say vital organs or any other organ, it simply says organs.  That's out of the original Marvel Handbooks. Odin&#39;s Beard


 * I agree - it would appear that Wolvie's healing ability is in the "Metahuman Regenerative" range, especially after his adamantium was ripped out and replaced (if you will recall from the comics, removing his adamantium enhanced the effects of his mutations, including his healing abilities - I believe that this was gone over in a discussion somewhere in the archives, in a comment also mentioning the Xavier Protocols). However, as we have both stated, we're satisfied at the general description of things.  Lets just let this one rest unless we can come up with a source that definitively says he can regenerate limbs or organs one way or another.  I will, however, note that in the description of Deadpool, whose regenerative abilities are derived from Wolverine's, it is said that he can regenerate organs and limbs.  I don't know enough about Deadpool to know whether his healing ability has been enhanced beyond Wolverine's or anything, so I guess that this is really just an issue of fanboy confusion on my part.  Again, not gonna make a stink about it, just noting something that may be inconsistent, possibly just minutia.  And once more, I'm pretty satisfied with things as they are.  Its probably pretty obvious that my opinions regarding Wolvie are biased, but I'm trying to remain as NPOV as I can here, and the disclaimer that his abilities' strengths have varied from writer to writer pretty much sums things up.


 * Look at the last sentence in the first paragraph of metahuman - SoM 03:52, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

What about it? In the DC Universe, Metahuman is a common term to describe beings with superhuman powers. In the Marvel Universe, Metahuman is a level of durability found within the original Marvel Handbooks. DC coined the term, Marvel used the term in a different way. Odin&#39;s Beard

His recent regenerating from a scorched skeleton in Wolvie v2 #43 pretty much puts paid to this issue, at least for now. Perhaps it would be a good idea to remove this section of talk for the time being? -Toptomcat 14:58, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Back when he was adamantium-less, he got run over by a drunk in a car. That guy that beat his family. Wolverine was basically gonna die within seconds, but his healing factor saved him and he showed no visible signs of any incorrectly set bones. Now, getting crushed underneath the wheel of a barreling car that's gunning for you, and being told that he's about to go to Wolverine heaven, says that at least the bones of his upper body are crushed and crushed in multiple places probably. So, either his body has a memory for both acquired and genetic traits (also explaining he's growing back a full head of hair during his Weapon X time and at another, he can cut it all off to go undercover in a gang or something and not have it grow back instantly) or the broken off pieces are replaced with new cell growth and the rest just gets absorbed by the body during cell cannibalism and the new cells are altered to have the acquired traits.

You could look at Wolverine at the most basic level: just a big old mass of energy, which mutant powers often work at. All healing and cell multiplication operate on the idea of energy doing work. Cells altered to have acquired traits could come from not just the larger level interaction of DNA workings, but could also include coming from some kind of change to the energy that makes Wolverine...Wolverine. It could even be partially psychic, if you wanna go that route, though I've never heard of anything canon about "psychic" ability being involved. Maybe some kind of conscious/unconscious control that's reflexive. It could explain how he grows back a full head of hair one time and not during another time.

Baseline human healing is controlled by the subconscious mind, so there might be some kind of link there. That would mean that with decreasing the apparent gap between his conscious and unconscious minds (taking more conscious control of unconscious/reflexive body workings), he's got the potential to regrow limbs by consciously willing it to happen. Deapool had this ability to mentally regrow a body part at one time (don't know how it is now). We know he had a template from Wolverine, but it could have been altered, since he doesn't have enhanced senses (sight, hearing, etc.) and I have seen a few columns that talk about Wolverine's senses being heightened because of his healing factor (which I presume is from lesser quality cell parts being replaced with higher quality ones, making the cell's signal processing more sensitive to what he picks up and not necessarily because of increased chemical concentrations in his body). So, I'd say that there might be some mental workings with the healing factor. It's just mostly unconscious and his view of his healing factor would just reinforce how it already works, strengthening just how his healing is supposed to be.

It can account for the varying things we've seen in the past. In earlier times, he knows that he will heal faster than a regular human and later, because of certain circumstances, the idea that it works stronger/faster/etc. becomes more the norm because he believes it can/wants it to be and it's so strong that it overrides the norm of his subconscious mind, just as you would with programming the subconscious to act certain ways reflexively for learning how to fight. The subconscious mind can't tell the difference between what's real and what isn't. Enhancing the healing factor can have a secondary effect of increaasing his durability, stamina, agaility, strength, etc.

We know he's had martial arts training and many martial art styles involve self-control and listening better to the signals the body is picking up on. -- rileyV 7:30, 9 October, 2006

Powers and Abilities question
I skimmed over that section just now and I think there is some information that appears in there that certainly sounds more like someone's opinion instead of what's canon. I'm specifically referring to the statement of Wolverine's sense of smell being slightly more developed than Daredevil's. I may be wrong, but I have never read that in any profile or character biography on Wolverine printed by Marvel Comics at anytime. Now, I have heard something along the lines that his sense of hearing is slightly less developed than Daredevil's, but I'm not certain if that statement is accepted as canonical either or if it's merely someone's opinion. Unless there's information to show that the statement is canon, I believe it should be removed from the article. (Odin&#39;s Beard)
 * Remove it. - SoM 03:51, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * During one of Marvel's Big Damn Crossover Events, a fake Reed Richards tried to talk a gathering of heroes into helping him out. Wolverine smelled him for a fake, DD didn't, and DD's thought balloon (for this was in the days where all major exposition took place in thought balloons) reflected that Wolverine's sense of smell must be even better than his own.


 * http://img472.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wol22dm.jpg
 * http://img265.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wolb21hp.jpg

Other Media section factually inaccurate-
I think that this: "Wolverine, as the most prominent member of the X-Men, has been the only X-Man to have been included in every adaptation of the X-Men franchise into non-comics media (including film, television, computer and video games) and is the only X-Man to have starred in his own video game." needs to be fixed. Wolverine has *not* appeared in every adaptation of the X-Men franchise. Wolverine did not appear in 1960s Marvel Super Heroes tv series, which featured the original X-men cast, nor did he appear in the Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends episode "The X-Men Adventure". I'll have to look, but I'm fairly certain that Cyclops has appeared in every or nearly every adaptation of the X-Men franchise that Wolverine has, even making cameo appearences in the Wolverine video-games. Finally, Wolverine did not appear in the television show "Generation X" which is a part of the X-Men franchise.

"(disputed! read below)"
"Dispute Update: Wolverine is not actually a mutant a previously thought, but instead what human beings would have become had the Celestials not tampered with early mankind (see Paradise X #4),such is Sabertooth, and other characters like Wendigo. So the powers which were deemed "mutant powers" are in actuality the natural abilities that all humans would  possess if it weren't for the weakening of the human race by the Celestials." - GIPU 71.32.81.229 09:28, 15 April


 * Paradise X was simply another alternate reality and isn't part of the mainstream Marvel Universe. The aspect involving Wolverine not actually being a mutant isn't accepted as canon. Odin&#39;s Beard
 * Correct - none of the Earth/Universe/Paradise X stuff has any bearing on MU continuity - SoM 00:45, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Yo. Ace here. Seems there's gonna be a bit of a problem tomorrow with regard to mutant powers. Just thought I'd add this now. Ace Class Shadow 09:28, 15 April 2006 (UTC)


 * http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5632/enhanced6tg.jpg
 * http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/8801/enhanced25tg.jpg

Costume gallery
Is it really neccessary to have a costume gallery for the character? I say it should be deleted. Besides the article is getting a little to big. --Gonzalo84 22:53, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't really see any problem with a costume gallery. It just notes the different looks he's had over the years. Besides, the article isn't nearly as big as the Spider-Man or Hulk articles. It seems that a new section for them pop up almost daily. Odin&#39;s Beard
 * Given the number of drastic costume changes Wolverine's had over the years, I think it's a good idea to include it. Willbyr 19:59, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

BUB
Logan always says bub,is it a canadian or american word?

It's a relatively common (even borderline stereotype) Canadian word. 24.177.49.54 21:10, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

NUKE
The man that the government is sending in to stop Wolverine is called Nuke, for anybody that doesn't know. Nuke is a pretty obscure character and was an opponent for Dardevil and Captain America. I'd say that his overall appearances total less than 12. For anyone unfamiliar with him, this link should tell you pretty much all there is to know about him. http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/darenuke.htm Also, this is a great site for those curious about some of the more obscure characters that have appeared in the Marvel Universe. Odin&#39;s Beard

Relationships
Shouldn't there be a small section on Wolverine's relations with other characters? Such as Jean, Jubilee and(from what I know, in the movies) Rogue?

Don't forget his clone, I don't if it's true, I've only heard about it.

You mean X-23? Ace Class Shadow 19:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

another co-creator?
From "Marvel: Five Fabulous Decades of the World's Greatest Comics" by Les Daniels, p. 166: "I took Len Wein to lunch one day," says Roy Thomas, "and we talked about how to create a Canadian character for the comics, because we had a fair amount of sales there. I thought Wolverine was a good name, and I said I wanted him to be a little, scrappy guy. Then I left it to Len."
 * I missed that part. I'm gonna have to read it again... Trekphiler 03:17, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Redundant Information
I think the last paragraph of Publication History should be deleted, as the information there is already present in the 4th paragraph of the article. AltrEgo2001 22:05, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Wolverine In Other Media
Although I do commend the author for the extensive research involved in this portion of the Wolverine article, I think this should be edited so as to not sound like an 8th grade book report. I'll do it if no one else wants to, but with the interest in the new movie I'm sure someone more adept at writing Wiki articles will see the grammatical errors and take care of it. AltrEgo2001 23:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Powers and abilities
The New powers and abilities section too long (see past dissusions), why do we need it?T-1000 02:50, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Your edits look good to me. I like Wolverine and all, but that section was a bit fancrufty.--DCAnderson 02:54, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I trimmed a bit of Odin's Beard's edits, such as the reference to Spider-Man. T-1000 02:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I got no problem with a few trims here and there. I edited the section mostly because it all just looked so jumbled and thrown together without any real sense of organization. I also felt that a little detail was needed, nothing outrageous or anything. And yeah, the Spider-Man reference was unnecessary, didn't really think about it at the time. Just popped into my head and sounded good at the time. And DCAnderson, c'mon, let's not bring any sort of fanboy references into this. It's a bit of a cheap shot. I think it's fairly safe to assume that all of us who contribute to these articles, read them, and/or take time out of our lives to provide acurate details to them are "fanboys" of some type, otherwise we wouldn't bother. Odin&#39;s Beard

I'd like to note that given the way that Wolverine is written currently, he is virtually immortal. I think it is fair to note since the character is able to survive complete absence of tissue, whole organs, blood count and nervous system  by regenerating - this would be fair to say that the character is virtually immortal at this point. (IE Any creature that could survive and regenerate itself wholly after being incinerated down to a skeleton would be a fair candiate to being identified something that cannot die.  Thusly Wolverine can be noted being by virture: "immortal".  I think this is relevent and should be allowed to be posted.   Hokgwai--Hokgwai 06:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Please provide a citation noting that Wolverine is immortal. --Chris Griswold (  ☎  ☓  ) 07:40, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * As ChrisGriswold said, you'd need to cite a source. You might want to wait until Wolverine #48 is published before adding information on this - it's being solicited as an explanation for recent events ("Logan’s survived a plane crash, near-decapitation and being burned alive. The question is... HOW?"). As ever, solicitation text is unreliable, but... --Mrph 08:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Immortality is defined as the concept of existing for a potentially infinite, or indeterminate, length of time. Or as Merriam Webster's ditionary defines is "being exempt from death".

I noted that Wolverine was "virtually" immortal. Given his current abilities, I think it's fair to say anyone who could regenerate their bodies from just a skeleton would classify as at not being able to die by any conventional means. Thusly, being virtually immortal.Hokgwai--Hokgwai 08:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * "Fair to say" or not, that's independent analysis, which constitutes original research. As for whether it's fair to say, he has aged since gaining his powers, meaning he may die of old age and would not then be immortal.  However, that's speculation which also doesn't belong on Wikipedia.  Your attempt to better the article is appreciated, but please stick to statements and analysis from reputable secondary sources.  --Newt Ψ  Φ  13:40, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

It was not stated that he could not die at ever. (old age or otherwise) But given the way the character is being written recently his abilities are nearing immortality. The character now currently is capable of feats that would have killed or even obliterated him before. (IE "Days of Future Past" storyline)  Perhaps this is a matter of semantics. Please note the difference between "virtually immortal" and "immortal". Thanks for your keen efforts in trying to keep this honest.--Hokgwai 13:57, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

However Mrph did make a good point. Since it will be explained how he was able to regenerate from merely a skeleton in Wolverine #48, maybe the notation of that occurence should be deleted from the Powers and Abilities section. It may be explained that his rengeneration from virtually nothing had nothing to do with his healing factor and might be attributed to some outside intervention. All things are possible within the realm of comics.--Hokgwai 14:10, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Your explanations are a result of independent analysis or speculation neither of which should be added to a Wikipedia article. Please do not add uncited analysis to the article.  --Newt Ψ  Φ  17:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Quotation from the MARVEL Directory: Wolverine is not immortal, however. If the injuries are extensive enough, especially if they result in the loss of vital organs, large amounts of blood, and/or loss of physical form (such as having flesh burned away by fire or acid), Logan can die. 

Wolverine current healing factor abilities have has displayed a direct contradiction of this official statement. Therefore it can be said Wolverine's abilities are making him "virtually immortal." Not truly immortal but "virtually" immortal. --Hokgwai 23:54, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No, although it can perhaps be said that in Wolverine, volume 3, #43 he regenerated from a skeleton - something that is well beyond the previously established limits of his healing factor. It can also be said that solicitation text from Marvel has since acknowledged that this is not consistent with the way his powers have been depicted in the past, and have stated that this will be addressed as a plot point in Wolverine, volume 3, #48. Or words to that effect. --Mrph 00:08, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Hokgwai, please read policy before adding this again. You are introducing your own analysis of what happened in a comic book, this fails Wikipedia's policy against original research. Further, it may not even have been Wolverine, and stranger things have happened in comic books.  Until it's explained, any reporting of the event as Wolverine surviving being incinerated to his skeleton would be speculation, and Wikipedia is not the place for speculation. --Newt Ψ  Φ  00:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * That's assuming that his healing factor would keep him alive indefinitely, too. That's a fairly huge assumption. For all we know, it gives out after a few hundred or thousand years. A long time, yes, but hardly in the immortal league. CovenantD 01:56, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Newt I agree with you. I suggest removing the notation of being able to regenerate from a skeleton listed under his Powers and Abilities.--Hokgwai 04:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

CITATIONS!?
Why are you people getting your knickers in a twist! You want to put citations for a comic character! The fact that should be a concern, its' frivelous and pointless. And the fact that comics have rectons whenever, who knows what citation would be rendered useless. And don't worry, its not like a University Professor is going to see one minor mistake of continiuty on this Wolverine profile,and then castrate the website. Just fix it if it has a mistake, and that will be that. Don't overcomplicate matters.


 * I was hoping to work the article up to Good article status. At the very least, it is Wikipedia policy. It is especially important for the parts about the IRL things (ie what the comic creators have said abot him)--DCAnderson 04:32, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

A blind eye could be turned to the fiction side of things (though an issue number would be nice), but things like that the creators originally intended for him to actully be a mutant wolverine need to be referenced.--DCAnderson 04:41, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It's necessary to have issue numbers and to keep an out-of-universe perspective in order to help maintain fair use. The entire article should have citations, without them, the claims and statements in the article are not verifiable and we stand a strong possibility of merely paraphrasing fiction, which is copyright infringement.  Please read up on policy and guidelines before ranting.  --Newt ΨΦ 18:19, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

tired of fixing grammar
the section I said might have been vandalized (see page history around the timestamp I sign with here) had many minor problems seemingly introduced, which I've gotten tired of fixing as I was reading it. Someone should go through the page history and see if someone vandalized this section inconspicuously. A lot of the sentences just don't make sense now. 87.97.8.232 15:31, 10 June 2006 (UTC).

tired of fixing grammer.
the section I said might have been vandalized (see page history around the timestamp I sign with here) had many minor problems seemingly introduced, which I've gotten tired of fixing as I was reading it. Someone should go through the page history and see if someone vandalized this section inconspicuously. A lot of the sentences just don't make sense now. 87.97.8.232 15:32, 10 June 2006 (UTC).

Gahck and Erista, Tribe wife and son
Erista, wolverine's son, wasn't listed under relatives. Some of you may not even know he existed so please visit http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/gahcksavland.htm before even considering editing this out. Also if someone does i'd appreciate the help in arguing for it to stay. I don't think there'll be much of an issue here, but you never know, this IS wikipedia... Btw i know she's not his wife, and so i didnt list Gahck under it. Also they're from Wolverine: The Jungle Adventure if u want a comic reference &mdash; ChocolateRoses talk

You're right, I completely forgot about that. I don't believe that Wolverine even knows about his son but I agree that he should be included under the relatives section. Odin&#39;s Beard

Hey, could this son be Sabreclaw from the alternate universe MC2. I read somewhere that Sabreclaw was Wolverine's son with a woman from the Savage land, and I saw Erista's picture and he has the same complextion and hair color as Sabreclaw.

In the 1990 one-shot story "The Jungle Adventure", the child in Gahck's arms appears in only the very last panel of the book. While it is clearly implied by the story to be Logan's baby, the child is never named or even revealed to be male or female by either the story's author, Walter Simonson, or it's artist, Mike Mignola. To this day, it still remains the child's only appearance to date (even though Logan has since returned to the Savage Land on several occasions, apparently with no time to check in on his wife). 74.244.63.126 03:43, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Extensive Edits
Whew! I just did some extensive edits on Wolverine's history. Hope you all enjoy! Solofire6 01:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Wolverine reflexes
In the comics powers/abilities it doesn't state that wolverine has superhuman reflexes, or enhanced reaction timing ?

It's stated that his agility and relfexes are enhanced to levels that are beyond the human body's natural limits. Sounds superhuman to me. Odin&#39;s Beard 14:30, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Wasn't it beyond NORMAL human??(which isn't superhuman) Click on the second link under "(disputed! read below)" above^. I'd say he counts more as enhanced than superhuman. &mdash; ChocolateRoses talk

Skrull Wolverine
There was a period of time where Wolverine was apparently replaced by a Skrull. Does anyone know what that was all about or how long it lasted? - HKMARKS 02:03, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Apocalypse had aquiared a number of Skrull servants during The Twelve storyline. The Twelve storyline involved Apocalypse sending his minions, including new Horsemen and Skrulls to capture twelve mutants so that he could basically absorb their powers and add them to his own to gain some form of omnipotence. Prior to this storyline, the X-Men were returning from an adventure in space and were ambushed by Skrulls serving Apocalypse. Everyone was rendered unconscious, I forget how exactly, but there wasn't some great battle I don't believe. Wolverine was taken and a Skrull was left in his place to impersonate Wolverine and to sort of help rip the X-Men apart from the inside. This Skrull had been trained for quite a long time not only to use his powers to look like Wolverine, but he had to learn to mold his personality, his manner of speech, his mannerisms, etc. in order to be convincing. The Skrull did his job perfectly, he looked, sounded, and behaved exactly as Wolverine. Even Xavier could tell no difference. The Skrull maintained this illusion for weeks, maybe even months, partly because he was able to avoid most dangerous situations. although some were unavoidable. The Skrulls are unable to duplicate a mutant's powers, at least powers that are somewhat complicated. Skrulls are unable to duplicate the X-gene. The Skrull was able to morph bone claws but didn't possess Wolverine's superhuman senses, enhanced physical abilities, or his mutant healing factor. Eventually, this imposter Wolverine accompanied a team of X-Men consisting of Colossus, Cyclops, Jean Grey, Cable, and Rogue I believe in opposing one of Apocalypse's Horsemen, the Horseman known as Death. Death was a mysterious figure, powerfully built, wearing armor and a read cloack with some kind of scarf that completely concealed his head and facial features. Death also carried a scimitar-like sword with a very logn and widely curved blade. Death defeated the X-Men and ran "Wolverine" through with this sword, killing him. Death would later turn out to be the actual Wolverine and the Skrull imposter was discovered as Beast was performing an autopsy as to why the imposter Wolverine, who they still believed to actually be Wolverine at this time, had died. It was revealed that despite being a perfect genetic match to Wolverine, the individual laid out in the medical lab had no X-Factor in his genes, meaning that not only was he not Wolverine, but he wasn't even a mutant. Fans have since referred to this Skrull imposter as Skrullverine. As for how long it lasted, I'm not certain exactly of how many issues. Wolverine made an appearance as Death, under Apocalypse's control, in about three issues of his own montly title. Odin&#39;s Beard 17:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

yeah i didnt like that stories - skrulls are very resilient and have some form of healing factor due to their shapeshifting. Just listen to what wolverine says about them in Young Avengers #12! &mdash; ChocolateRoses talk

Being burned to a skeleton?
Someone keeps adding to the powers and abilities section that Wolverine has regenerated completely from having the flesh burned from his body, leaving nothing but his bones. The only instance I know of where the flesh was instantly incinerated from his body was during the Days of Future Past storyline and that's an alternate universe. When else has this occurred and is it canon? Odin&#39;s Beard 17:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

That's me and others - it's there on the page - Wolverine 43, the latest issue.

http://cgknight.f2s.com/wolverineburnt1.jpg

http://cgknight.f2s.com/wolverineburnt2.jpg

--Charlesknight 17:59, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I was wondering if it might be the new issue, I haven't picked it up yet. Thanks for the heads up. Guess that ends the old debate as to whether or not he can regenerate missing limbs and vital organs. Odin&#39;s Beard 18:02, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Keep it there for now, but seing as that was last issue, im still hoping for a better explanation. Lots of fans on comic boards online are a bit pissed off at this. It's a total change in ability really -- this means (1) he's immortal and (2) where the frick did he get the energy from to do this?? It used to be he needed the energy from food within him. &mdash; ChocolateRoses talk

68.38.132.19 18:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)I think it is safe to assume that the Wolverine's skeleton kept his brain unharmed and so he used those cells to recreate his intire body. It is the only way that part with Nitro makes sense


 * It's creative licencing. It says in the article that the level of his healing factor has varied from writer to writer. This is the highest his hf has ever been writen though, and may cause a few problems continuty wise. JQF 23:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Power and abilities
The Powers and abilities section is too long again. Needs some trimming. T-1000 19:45, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Odin's beard, please talk about the changes before you make them. T-1000 02:25, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I accidentally removed the picture. I was attempting to fix the statement made under the picture that was shown because it stated that it was Wolverine regenerating after being reduced to a skeleton while the picture was actually the same picture of Wolverine being shot that's been there for the past 6 months. I'm not familiar with adding pictures to articles, never done it before. I wasn't making changes, just made a mistake. As to the section being too long, how is adding one more line, which contails relevant information, making the article too long? Lighten the hell up man. Odin&#39;s Beard 16:55, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

68.38.132.19 18:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC) I think it is safe to assume that the Wolverine's skeleton kept his brain unharmed and so he used those cells to recreate his entire body. It is the only way that part with Nitro makes sense

Wolverine claws
From what i had understood, there are no holes for his claws to comme out,like a animals claws, they each time slise throue the flesh ,and then his healing capabilities close the holes, when they are retracted.In the first movie , when Rogue ask him if it heart when they come out ,he replies "every time".Is this the only technical explanation of the subject.--87.64.6.217 12:34, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, pretty much. There are no permanent holes for the claws to come out. They're housed in his forearms and pop out between his knuckles. Each time they're popped out or retracted, they leave large holes behind that are healed instantly, but that doesn't prevent him from feeling pain. Wolverine's tolerance for pain is much higher than that of most people, he's used to it, and he's endured so much of it that it's easy for him to cope. Odin&#39;s Beard 14:02, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Not only this, but I imagine that the pain would be very brief, in spite of its intensity, due to the healing factor.

Something that could be brought up in the article is the variety of ways in which Wolverine's claws have been depicted over the character's existence, as well as a note about the anatomical impossibility of some of the depictions in the comics and the X-ray in the first film. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 04:13, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, in most depictions I've seen, they rest -atop- his hands, as if glued there, when there's no way they could have come out of his forearms at that angle, then 'corrected' to the parallel angle. The movie version seems to have them between his knuckles, which makes more sense
 * Find a reputable source that speaks about this before adding it to the article. We can synthesize outside sources, but we cannot make our own judgments.  We report facts, we don't analyze them. --Newt ΨΦ 20:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * To address the "how they come out" issue: As I understand Wolverine's anatomy, the claws sit on top of his forearm bones, and extend straight out and in when extruded and retracted.  If he held his hands parallel to his arms when popping the claws, they would probably come out directly between his knuckles, as they do in the movies.  However, in most of the pictures I've seen that I can remember, Wolverine flexes his wrists slightly so that the claws emerge from the backs of his hands (and thus through the sockets on his gloves).  If the claws are cylindrical or oblong in cross-section, as the bone claws are usually depicted as being, they would most likely badly distort his hands when "popped" if they came out directly between his knuckles; thus, the "between the knuckles" thing only really works if the claws are blades, like in the movies or in the case of X-23.  It's worth noting for this discussion that the X-ray from the first film doesn't make any logical sense, as his forearms would be visibly malformed with the ulna and radius pushed apart to make room for the claw mechanism...also, since the claw tips extend into his hand in the X-ray, he couldn't bend his hands without constantly cutting them wide open.  Willbyr (talk | contribs) 05:55, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I have always been wondering about the proper shape of his claws. My theory (since it varies from artist to artist) on the matter is that his adamantium claws are pure adamantium and not metal coated bone. The placement of pure adamantium claws would inhibit the regrowth of his natural bone claws. It would also explain how his admantium claws are usually blades, and the bone claws are cylindrical in shape. As for the delivery system, Logan must have some sort of sheathing mechanism (maybe a thin adamantium bar to guide it) within his arm to house the each claw, so it always returns to its proper spot. Once extended, the claws would have to slot into somewhere within the bones of the hand to provide reinforcment, as he's frequently seen exerting large amounts of force directly on the claws. The extension of the claws also presents a problem. The claws may fit fine in his arm and on his hand, but getting them to and from is problematic. They would need to pass right through his carpals (wrist bones). Of course, this would result in little damage to the bones themselves, it would howver tear most of the muscle that allows for wrist movement. This is all from my head too, so don't be too hard. 142.161.37.255 07:24, 29 December 2006 (UTC) M.H.

Barry Windsor-Smith, in his classic story "WEAPON X", depicted Wolverine's claws as knives made of pure Adamantium. Logan could mentally control the movement of these knives through the use of the cybernetic cicuitry that was connected to each blade. The knives were surgically implanted immediately after the Adamantium/skeletal bonding process was complete, with the doctors who performed the procedure commenting on their difficulty in keeping the incision in his forearms open due to the subject's accelerated Healing-Factor. No, wait, Larry Hama said they were bone all along. Tough luck, Barry. 74.244.63.126 03:40, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * This last edit isn't 100% correct. When Logan was first receiving the adamantium in Weapon X, the scientists noted an abnormal amount was being absorbed into his hands and wrists.  Later, when Logan extruded his claws for the first time, the tech who was monitoring him said that he had knives coming out of his hands just before Logan killed him; the Professor mentioned afterwards that they weren't knives, they were claws.  The surgery that was referred to in the last edit was actually to restructure his wrist area so that the claws wouldn't cause Logan as much pain and tissue damage when he extruded and retracted them; the surgeons complained that the incisions they made were healing faster than they could work.  Whether or not the claws were pure adamantium or bone was never discussed. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 13:31, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * "The knives then, in his hands... ...pure Adamantium..." "Have you not heard a word I've said? They're not knives, Cornelius... ...They're claws!" This statement was taken out of context by Larry Hama in order to RETCON the fact that Logan's claws were not in fact artificial implants, but bone. That statement is the end of a six page discussion between Cornelius and the Professor about viewing Logan not as a man, but rather an animal. An animal that has been given claws and turned into the perfect killing machine. When read in it's entirety, and when taking into account the Professor's hardline stance that Logan never posessed any humanity to begin with, you aren't left with the impression that he was born with bone claws, you are meant to view Logan as an animal. And animals use claws, not knives. That was Barry's stance in that statement. He wasn't hinting that the claws were bone. The "claws" are pure Adamantium. As far as the surgery to his forearms that I mentioned earlier, I've just reread that issue, and what the doctors are actually trying to accomplish is to "trace the relay flux in his central nervous system." They are creating access to the cybernetic "spinal codes" so that they can remotely control Logan's movements physically when necessary. Thay are making sure their new weapon has a "trigger" that they themselves can "pull". Weapon X was a puppet... complete with strings. Hama's explanations toward such a massive character RETCON are pretty pathetic, in my opinion. He wanted a plot twist for Wolverine. He wanted to leave his mark on someone else's creation, and he didn't care what previous fine writing would have to be ignored, so he could play around with Logan's past. "Bone Claws" only serve to take away what Experiment X accomplished with Logan. They gave him the claws. He was to be their weapon. 74.244.63.126 03:40, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Pic of Wolverine being reduced to a skeleton
Someone keeps removing the picture from the powers and abilities section displaying Wolverine being reduced to his skeleton after Nitro uses his powers against him. This same person states that in #44, it's revealed that it wasn't Wolverine but a SHIELD Life Decoy. I've just been to Marvel.com and Wolverine #44 doesn't even hit stores until July 26, so how does this person know that it was a Life Decoy? Until the issue hits shelves and verifies this claim, I'll just keep adding the picture back. And lay off the name calling. It's immature, idiotic, and has no place here. Odin&#39;s Beard 00:33, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Here's a third opinion: leave out the pic and the talk about regenerating from a skeleton until the next issue actually hits the stands. CovenantD 01:12, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, since it would be OR at this point. T-1000 21:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * What's the resolution on that pic, by the way? Fair use tag says "low resolution" images are believed to be okay. --Newt ΨΦ

Wikipedia is not a crystal ball - nobody has seen 44 - so I say we leave in it and then we can ALTER it if it turns out to be a LMD or a drug-induced coma or whatever. And people throwing around words like "retarded" should remember what Wikipedia says about civility to other editors.

--Charlesknight 17:07, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree about the name-calling thing, but yeah i don't think that was wolverine. People have links to the comic industry and people read issues weeks before theyre out. i believe this "rumour" &mdash; ChocolateRoses talk

Well it seems you were wrong and this is a good example of why wikipedia is NOT a crystal ball. --Charlesknight 23:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

According to a preview on www.wizarduniverse.com, there's some artwork samplings and in one of them, it shows a mysterious figure wearing some cloak with a hood with two small red eyes and numerous drawings of Logan, including a close up of one of his eyes. A tear is flowing out of the eye and you can see the cloaked figure being reflected. Could it be Marvel's version of Death? http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/002167948.cfm Down at the bottom, the third one.

Movie
I added the announcement of the movie following the press release on the Empire film site though I don't know if it is in the right place or not. Fell free to move it somewhere more appropriate.Schnizzle 15:01, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Ignore me its in there all ready I've deleted my edited.Schnizzle 15:03, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Glenn Danzig
Is the fact that he was considered for playing Wolverine in an X-Men film back during the 1990s really all that noteworthy, especially considering that the article section is devoted to music? To my knowledge, and if I'm wrong let me know, the Wolverine character hasn't been immortalized in a song, there isn't a band or artist that uses Wolverine as a stage name, etc. Odin&#39;s Beard 01:37, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Entombed's album Wolverine Blues had him on the album cover, and while the song doesn't explicitely say anything, I think the vid had one of the members in a wolvie shirt and the lyrics could vaguely be Wolverine related. -August 11, 2006
 * Find a reliable source and add it. --Chris Griswold 08:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Merge
Per WP:CMC, Ultimate character articles should be merged into those of their Marvel Universe counterparts. --Chris Griswold 22:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Survey

 * Merge -- Chris Griswold 22:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Merge: Might as well merge them, it's happening to all the other articles with the Ultimate characters. Some parts of the article could stand a little trimming I believe. I think that most of the section about alternate versions of the character isn't all that necessary or at the very least could use some major trimming. That particular section looks as if it takes up almost as much article space as the publication and character history. Odin&#39;s Beard 23:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Merge as soon as this article is condensed. It might save us from having to constantly remove the speculation about how Ultimate Adamantium might be weaker than 616 Adamantium.  --Newt ΨΦ 01:32, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment - WHAT?! I just got a nose bleed. Thanks. --Chris Griswold 01:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Separate - The article has so much information, the addition would make an already extensive article too busy.  I feel the article should be kept the way it is, a brief summary with a link to the already existing Ultimate article. --66.109.248.114, August 8, 2006.
 * Merge -HKMARKS 23:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

'''Discussion closed. Result was: MERGE''' --Chris Griswold 01:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

 * The page should be kept for the upcoming miniseries. --Jamdav86 15:15, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Merged

 * First attempt at merge has now been done, text could do with editing down a little but I don't think anything important has been lost in the move. --Mrph 23:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)