Talk:Women's March on Portland/Archive 1

Ongoing protests
Should another wave of protests be mentioned in this article? MB298 (talk) 22:08, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think this protest is specifically tied to the Women's March on Portland, though, right? I do think this might belong somewhere at Wikipedia, but not this article. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:49, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I just created John F. Kennedy International Airport protest. I'm still trying to see if there might be a more general article about the protests over Trump's executive orders. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 23:26, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Re: RfD on Austin and Seattle March articles
The Women's March on Austin and Women's March on Seattle articles are both under consideration for deletion. Given that those are the only other 2 Women's March articles besides this one that focus on a specific location, it might be worth discussing the value of having this article be separate from List of 2017 Women's March locations. The main Washington, D.C. march doesn't even have its own separate article. Jw12321 (talk) 22:42, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not finished expanding the article (I've posted additional links above, and there are plenty more). Certainly WP:GNG applies and this event is notable. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:45, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Speakers?
It would be good to list the speakers, I haven't found a list anywhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.22.76.12 (talk) 18:17, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
 * This article is still a work in progress, and I'll definitely mention speakers if they are confirmed by reliable sources. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 15:35, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Good article nomination
I've nominated this article for Good status under the "Culture, sociology and psychology" category, but I'm not sure if the "Politics and government" category is more appropriate or not. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 21:38, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Feedback
I think it could use some more work before it gets to that point. Bits of feedback:
 * I'm not sure that the structure works: having a "motivation" section based solely around the organisers' quotes, a logistics section and an impact section that completely ignores any reference to what comes after seems a bit strange to me - it reads like the negatives have been intentionally set out from the perceived positives and put later, making these earlier sections non-NPOV. Chronological order would solve this problem.


 * "Despite their inclusion of a women to speak about rights for trans women, and adding to the program an opportunity for Black Lives Matter supporters to stage a die-in, the original organizers were criticized for not addressing issues of diversity" is not NPOV framing - in using "despite" and structuring it in that way it implicitly suggests that it should have been considered addressed


 * "Margaret Jacobsen, a 29-year-old activist and writer identifying as a nonbinary gender polyamorist,[26] joined the campaign on January 5, 2017, and became the march's lead organizer the following day" - this is typical of an apparent bias against critics that pervades through the article - it's akin to referring to the initial organiser as identifying as a "female gender monogamist", and it's a very awkwardly worded and clearly stigmatising description
 * Huh? Stigmatising description? I'm just saying how they identify, based on multiple secondary sources. Outlets felt the need to cover the fact that Jacobsen, whose self-identifications are quite different than the original organizers, took over. I'm just reflecting sourcing, no? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:35, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * No, you're not. The original organiser is not described in that way - a decision has made to refer to the second organiser as "nonbinary gender" (noun) which doesn't make grammatical sense/is intentionally awkwardly phrased and to single-out that the person sleeps with multiple people at a time as their only introduction. The only reason for doing this is to be dismissive. The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 22:44, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Please, no accusations. I'm a gay man living in the liberal beacon that is Portland, Oregon. I'm perfectly comfortable around queer, nonnbinary, and polyamorous people. Setting that aside, I see what you mean re: grammar. I've removed "gender" and linked "binary" to the Gender binary article. So, the text now reads, "Margaret Jacobsen, a 29-year-old activist and writer identifying as a nonbinary polyamorist..." Is this better, or are you suggesting "identifying as a nonbinary polyamorist" should be removed altogether? I think we should keep in mind, media outlets noted their self-identifications specifically because of how diversity (or lack thereof) played a role in how this event was organized. I'm not mentioning Jacobsen's preferences just for the sake of doing so... --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:51, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Removing the "gender" is better than what was there before, but introducing a person in the context of an article on a feminist event by how many people she sleeps with to contrast her from other people (!) is really quite off. I think there are better ways of explaining how diversity, or the lack thereof, played a role in how this event was organised. The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 23:20, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? 1. They identify as nonbinary, so I'm not "introducing a woman". 2. How does their self-identification as polyamorous imply anything about their number of sexual partners? If you have specific suggestions about how to improve the article, then please share, but I feel like I'm being trolled at the moment. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 23:23, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * My bad, corrected. I cannot be any more explicit: the introduction of a person solely by an intentionally awkward introduction of their gender identity and the revelation that they sleep with multiple people - and to do so in the context of establishing difference from the original organisers - is completely inappropriate. That is as specific a suggestion as it gets. A refusal to acknowledge feedback does not, in fact, mean that it has not been explicitly given. I'm stunned at the pushback I'm getting on some of these very basic problems. The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 23:35, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm stunned you think someone identifying as polyamorous implies anything about their number of sexual partners, and that you think me including mention of how someone like Jacobsen replacing a group criticized for lack of diversity is inappropriate. You didn't answer the question: are you saying you'd prefer to have "identifying as a nonbinary polyamorist" removed altogether, or do you have another way to cover diversity in mind? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 23:49, 20 January 2019 (UTC)


 * The Williamette Week article added as the most recent reference prominently links (to explain the lack of a 2018 march being in part due to "accusations of racism" in the 2017 march) to another WW article that says "But Jacobsen inherited a march rent by racial strife. Activists complained the event's original organizer, who lives in Eastern Oregon, refused to give a platform to minorities, immigrants and trans people." None of this clearly makes it in the article except right at the bottom in the context of failed partnerships - it really does read like it's going to some lengths not to mention this stuff, and where absolutely necessary to minimise it.
 * Women%27s_March_on_Portland specifically says, "Despite their inclusion of a women to speak about rights for trans women, and adding to the program an opportunity for Black Lives Matter supporters to stage a die-in, the original organizers were criticized for not addressing issues of diversity." --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:32, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I've already singled out that phrase as minimising the issues even before I'd read the Williamette Week article explaining that the issues were in fact worse than referenced anywhere in the article. That sentence really doesn't do the job. The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 22:44, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Then I welcome your specific suggestions. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 23:02, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I've given a bunch of specific feedback, absolutely none of which has been incorporated into the article. The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 23:35, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * No, so far you've driven by the article, thrown some trash out the window, and accused me of being dismissive and possibly having a COI. I'm very much open to article improvements and want this article to be as good as possible, I'd just prefer suggestions be specific and requested with more respect. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 23:55, 20 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I don't quite follow exactly what happened in the switch from the "old" to the "new" organisers - where did the "old" organisers go?
 * Who knows? They were ousted. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:09, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Can you clarify how they were ousted? How does one "hostile takeover" a Facebook page? I don't really follow this - it doesn't clearly explain what happened in the changeover. The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 22:14, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't know how the Facebook page was taken over, I'm just sharing what sources said. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:30, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Are there any other sources about this transition? It really isn't very clear. The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 22:47, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I've completed quite a bit of research, but by all means, have a go if you feel inclined. At the end of the day, I don't think most readers will care how the Facebook takeover went down. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:55, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not just talking about the Facebook takeover - anything else explaining what happened with the change of organisers and change in direction would do a lot to clear up that section and make it less confusing. The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 23:21, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm not really sure how the text is confusing now, so you'll have to clarify or reviewing sourcing to propose specific improvements. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 23:28, 20 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Why are critical groups who refused to participate listed under "partnerships"?
 * The NAACP of Portland and Planned Parenthood chapter were planned partners, but withdrew their support. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:05, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * It doesn't really explain what the relationship/proposed partnership was here - it just says they refused to support it. It might be better to more clearly focus this on summarising the partnership falling apart and put the detail about the criticism further up - two large and well-respected groups who were prominently involved in other places refusing to support a rally because of what they'd been told about its priorities and messaging does not just have consequences for the rally in terms of a collapse of a formal partnership. The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 22:14, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry I misspoke and struck my comment above. Planned Parenthood wasn't going to support the march at first, but ultimately decided to partner. Sorry for the confusion. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:43, 20 January 2019 (UTC)


 * The section about the NAACP is confusing - I feel like the "teachable moment" quote needs some context if they weren't participating
 * There is an entire paragraph of context. Can you be more specific about what context is needed? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:08, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Is it meant to state that refusing to endorse the rally was the "teachable moment"? That isn't really clear - when I first read it I thought they were participating in some form. There is clearly some to-and-fro here - what did the organisers do in response? The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 22:14, 20 January 2019 (UTC)


 * "The group's president, Jo Ann Hardesty, said she was told that those issues, along with anti-Trump and Black Lives Matter messaging and signage, were "too political"." This is burying the lede, and especially badly contrasts with the "despite" sentence at the beginning." Why is this mid-paragraph at the end of the article?
 * How is this burying the lead? One organization electing not to serve as a partner is small compared to the overall impact of this march, no? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:40, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * African-American activists refusing to participate specifically in Portland because of issues with that particular march is not "small", and that comment reflects a dismissive attitude of critics that definitely appears throughout the article to the point of wondering if there are COI issues. The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 22:50, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * What specific suggestions do you have? You've called me "dismissive" twice now, which I don't really appreciate. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:53, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * COI issues? I'm not even sure what you're implying here. The lead is that as many as 100k people assembled in Portland, not that 1 group elected not to be a partner. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 23:11, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Comments like this are extremely dismissive of the criticism of the event - you're very invested in the idea that the event was an unequivocal success and in downplaying criticism. This is not a stance that's backed up in the sources - without even trying (I went to the most recent source you added) I found newspaper coverage indicating far greater problems than had been referenced anywhere in the article - problems seen as such by media covering the event. It deserves the coverage in the article that it got in reliable sources, and to not be buried at the bottom of the article under "partnerships". (To be clear, that is a specific suggestion.) The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 23:28, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, after being called dismissive three times now, I give up. I feel the article covers criticism of the event. There is no COI at play here. My only involvement is event attendance, and a wish to have a good Wikipedia article. Again, if you'd like to propose specific text additions, by all means, but until then I'm moving on to other projects and waiting for others to weigh in. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 23:34, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * You're nominating this for Good Article status - it usually goes with this that the nominator is willing to make changes in response to feedback. I'm getting tired of pointing out problems, making very clear suggestions to fix them, and then being dismissed. Don't ask for a review if you're not willing to make changes unless someone supplies you with exact wording. The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 23:37, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Please see my note at the bottom of this section. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 23:40, 20 January 2019 (UTC)


 * "The Planned Parenthood chapter had previously elected not to participate when march leaders failed to incorporate the organization's issues into the event's platform." - this needs explanation, and also looks particularly bad given the one-sided "motivation" section and earlier one-sided descriptions.
 * What explanation is needed? Planned Parenthood wasn't going to participate at first, but ended up partnering, as mentioned in the "Motivation" section. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:45, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Planned Parenthood initially refused to participate because the march failed to incorporate their issues. That's a huge deal considering their role nationally - and it's papered over in a sentence. The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 22:48, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, then please review sourcing and share how you'd prefer the article to be updated. Thanks, --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:54, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I think I made it pretty clear that it warrants some actual content as opposed to a dismissive one-liner at the end of the article. It's a fairly unique problem for a Women's March event. The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 23:28, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * We're going around in circles here. Please share how you'd prefer the article to be updated. Thanks, --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 23:35, 20 January 2019 (UTC)\
 * I would prefer that the article be updated with more content on the dispute with Planned Parenthood, that the updated content consist of more than one line, and that the updated content not be placed right at the bottom of the article. Better? The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 23:38, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Sorry to be harsh here (came over from the post asking for feedback at WIR), but I think this one has some issues that still need resolving. The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 21:57, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * No need to apologize. I very much appreciate the feedback, but some of this feels like drive-by criticism. If you have specific suggestions for article improvements, such as proposed text inclusions or moves, please let me know. Thanks! --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 23:03, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, I don't really like how this discussion has evolved, so I'm going to step away. I'd appreciate feedback from other editors. Thanks. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 23:37, 20 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Great job on a complicated topic .Oceanflynn (talk) 21:46, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you! --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 21:57, 21 January 2019 (UTC)