Talk:Women's education in Saudi Arabia

Neutrality
This really doesn't read like a neutral encyclopedia article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abdul Muhib (talk • contribs) 15:43, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

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I agree, especially the "Progress in Women's Education" section sounds like some PR advertisement piece than an encyclopedia entry. "In the end, Saudi Arabia will be ready for any global challenge." <-- Really? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.177.94.165 (talk) 02:23, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Echoing previous comments, reads like PR for a retrograde regime.

Remove copyvio
I've declined this for a few reasons. The first is that it wasn't marked where the copyvio is from, so I can't really check it. I know that there has been previous versions with issues, but that leads into the second issue: this is someone's school project and this is pretty much their first time editing Wikipedia. I'd like to try to re-write the article and remove any of the issues as opposed to just outright deleting it, if possible. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡)   06:23, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

At first glance
Tokyogirl79, after a quick once-over, I'm concerned that several of these sections address gender segregation in general and not women's education. I'll take another look in the morning and review the references. Best, Lesser Cartographies (talk) 06:47, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Sounds good- that's part of the reason I wanted to get help, as this sort of thing is a little out of my normal editing forte, so to speak. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡)   06:48, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Looks like there's plenty out there in the way of WP:RS. Not sure how much of the existing article is worth saving, though.  I'm going to make a draft in my sandbox and then we can discuss what happens next (hopefully with input from the original editor).  If you have some time, could you see if you can find a list of women-only Saudi universities and demographic information for all of the universities?  Thanks!  Lesser Cartographies (talk) 14:05, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Do you see any difficulties with this source? Lesser Cartographies (talk) 19:42, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
 * It looks like it was done by a branch of the consulting firm Strategy&, which will bring up some questions as to who they're consulting for. It looks good for the most part, but there might be questions as to whether or not someone asked them to write it. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡)   03:14, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Feedback/Suggestions
There are a few suggestions I have for your article. Overall you should go through and clean up some of the typos and try to make sure you are being objective when discussing the topic. I think most of the sections should be expanded in order to help really get at the heart of this topic. You seem to have very few sources to help back up some of these points. On some more specific suggestions, I would start with the consequences section. Are low levels of labor force participation and low political participation by women a result of educational segregation? It would seem to me this isn't educational segregation that causes these things, but instead the religious culture in general. Clearly, that culture has led to segregation in education, but that segregation isn't probably the reason for the low participation levels in politics and the labor force. You might instead want to look at if women get a substantially worse education because of this segregation. Lastly, in your progress of women's education section, I would go into more depth about the segregated education. Yes, women are being educated at higher levels now, but this is under segregated education. As I mentioned you could talk about the consequences of this. Is this actually separate but equal education? Dougsimpsonwiki (talk) 23:46, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Doug, was Brendon going to be returning to the article? Thanks,Lesser Cartographies  (talk) 00:35, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Lesser Cartographies I believe Brendon is going to be. Dougsimpsonwiki (talk) 03:21, 21 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Brendon, a few more specific suggestions, then. Perhaps a list of universities that admit women, their enrollment and demographics (and when they started accepted women).  A few high points on the history of when secondary and university education was allowed.  There have also been two tragedies associated with the universities' intersection with the wider culture&mdash;see my sandbox page for details and a few cites.  I think you've got a decent start here, but there's a lot more to cover and much of what exists in the article now is only peripherally related to education.  Lesser Cartographies (talk) 10:39, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Comment
This version looks much better than last two peer reviews. This one have clear title and subtitles. I like that each section is not too long to read. I'm happy to see a leading paragraph now. The suggestion I could make here is to complement few sentences in leading part to point out what the issue in women's education in Saudi Arabia. (In other words, to point out the inequality in education between women and men in Saudi Arabia.) I think that would be better to get a general sense of the whole article after look at the leading paragraph for readers. In terms of the segregation in social life part, I'm not sure if it would be better to change the first subtitle to "Norms" only. Because you've already mentioned this is in education area in the title "Segregation in social life". Besides, maybe more reference might be help to improve the article. Yangtana Li (talk) 23:15, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Suggestions
This version is an improvement from the last two versions I've seen. I recommend revising the opening paragraph/ introduction. The reason I say that is it is a little limiting in scope to be an introduction paragraph. It focuses more on how religion interacts with the ideologies of education in Saudi Arabia, but I think it may be improved by making it more of an abstract of the overall article. Also I would recommend adding more breadth to the history section if possible. For a section called “History” it just seems a little short with only one sentence describing how things used to be and only one source. However, it may because there is little to reference regarding women’s education in Saudi Arabia, it being so restricted. Lastly, I noticed on the talk page and on the main-space of your article that people were concerned with the article sounding essayish. One thing that may help turn the article into more encyclopedia-like tone would be to “call-out” your sources in the article’s text. For example, instead of, “Not much has been written about the Wahhabi Islamic religious establishments’ position on women's education. What is usually written about…” you could change the tone by just rewording it to say: “According to….the main view of Wahhabi Islamic religious have been….” or something similar to that. That will help it not sound so much like your own voice. Nice job! Nathan.cheever12 (talk) 00:15, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Suggestions Fixed
Nathan.cheever12 I went ahead and added more to the opening paragraph/ introduction. I tried to put a wider scope on the idea of the article and include more of what might be relevant while also still including the religion of Wahhabi Islam. Also I did some more reading and found some more supporting research for the history of Women's education. Also I have tried to incorporate your advice for the concern of the article being essayish. I have added different ways of saying "According to...." The call out idea has really helped, thank you!BrendonPorter (talk) 02:14, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi BrendonPorter. Thanks for your additional work here.  If I might, let me offer a few specific suggestions.  The history section (currently called "Progress") should be much closer to the top of the article:  providing some dates and events should really help motivate the sections that follow.  The article is also lacking what I would consider to be basic information about how many women's and co-ed universities exist, when did they open, and what are their enrollments and demographics.  That'll help reduce the essay-ness of the article.  Finally, there have been at least two reported incidents where the gender separation policies lead to an (alleged) loss of life.  I don't think the article will be complete without adding a section on those and the commentary they engendered.  I've made several notes here:  User:Lesser Cartographies/sandbox/Women's education in Saudi Arabia.  Please feel free to take what you find useful.  And don't be shy about asking for questions/help. Best, Lesser Cartographies (talk) 02:30, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Lesser Cartographies. Thank you for all of your notes and I am working on all of them. I added a list of schools in Saudi Arabia that are both co-ed and women only. I will work on getting more information about enrollments and such. Thank you again. Just working away at one thing at a time right now, so wish me luck.BrendonPorter (talk) 04:01, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Brendon, can you give me a sketch of where you see the article going and what your schedule is like? Thanks!  Lesser Cartographies (talk) 03:11, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Feedback
This version is better, but you need to incorporate more discussion, draw upon more scholarly sources to build up the article. You still have too few sources. Some paragraphs have only one citation. At about 1,100 words of text it is well below the minimum length for a basic decent article on the topic. It's length has not increased much after the first version. The reviews above should be helpful in improving the writing and content. In addition, you need more information on girls' enrollment rate compared to boys' enrollment rate (numbers enrolled/girls in a given age group) at each education level. There has to be stats available after 1999 for college graduation (a source other than the Baki article). At a minimum, consult the GII Table 4 of UNDP's Human Development Report for the latest stats on women and men with at least secondary education info. Also, UNESCO should have education statistics broken down by gender going back in time. So you can talk about how the educational achievement of women has changed. All of this should be in a separate section, such as "Education outcomes." In addition, you have to add the reference at the end of the first sentence in a paragraph. Click on encyclopedic style at the top of the article to see how you can edit to move away from opinion piece style of writing (Nate's suggestion above is good too). A few other points: The lead paragraph needs to be more abstract-like, as noted above, but also Wahhabi Islam is a "sect" not a religion; remove the "often" from the first sentence. Also, in the lead paragraph: "the most heavily practiced forms of Islam in Saudi Arabia" can probably be phrased as "the form of Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia." What is the title of Hamdan's article? There are very few links in the article; need to add those. Finally, the editor (User:Lesser Cartographies/sandbox/Women's education in Saudi Arabia) has identified some sources that could be useful, and put some quotes in his/her sandbox that you may wish to check.BerikG (talk) 01:13, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

BerikG I found some more scholarly sources and added them to the article, and that should bring my sources up to 18 now. I tried to add more to paragraphs that needed more citations. The final word count should be 2,000 and much more has been added to the body of many paragraphs. As you see, I added more to the opening paragraph and added more of an overview for what to expect about women's education in Saudi Arabia. I added enrollment to one of the categories and added information about the percentage in there. I also added a list of universities that except women. I tried to go with nate's suggestion about adding "According to..." type inserts to try and get away from essayish sounding. I have read through Lesser's notes and tried to work with his suggestions. Last I added as many links as I thought were needed. In the guide to adding links it said to use common sense and not link thing s that did not need to be linked, so I read through and linked things people might not know about.BrendonPorter (talk) 04:49, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

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