Talk:Women and video games/Archive 2

Rearrangement
I'm about to drop a big edit that's mostly rearrangement of material. I tried to make the demographics section less of a data dump, and I pulled a lot out of the disparity section that wasn't about disparity per se. Most of that ended up in a section about women's genre preferences. Hopefully no one flips their lid. Rhoark (talk) 03:49, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
 * My initial impression is favorable. I especially like the way the notable women in the industry were handled. Most people expect that this category will grow and keep growing so a bulleted list makes a lot more sense to me than a subsection per person. -Thibbs (talk) 10:28, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

the section about the (non-)notable individuals
If you want have it done properly, list BRIEFLY the actually notable figures, such as Roberta Williams, Amy Hennig, Corrinne Yu, Jane Jensen, Rieko Kodama, Lorelei Shannon, Yoko Shimomura, and so on. Women who worked on well known games and are well known. Not some random Lebanese woman nobody heard of. Also, do it briefly. --AggressiveNavel (talk) 16:39, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
 * This has already been discussed earlier. At the time there was no objection to splitting out that section and turning it into its own article. Whole-scale deletion of large amounts of reliably sourced information seems like a poor idea. -Thibbs (talk) 16:55, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I just saw your "There was originally no coverage of individual women in the article at all. This changed in October 2013 when User:152.33.61.191 added subsections on the 5 individuals we currently see in the article. I have no idea why Roberta Williams wasn't given a bigger subsection. Frankly the whole idea of spotlighting a handful of particularly notable women seems like it might be a mistake. There will always be disagreements about who are the most important individuals in any field." It's MISLEADING, useless, and bloating the article like hell. I've deleted it but someone reverted me. It needs to be deleted, until a short list of actually notable individuals can be compiled, the best would be if they were just listed and noted who they are (being a writer, programmer, artist, composer, and so forth). Obviously, only those who are having articles of their own, as they're notable for Wikipedia. --AggressiveNavel (talk) 17:04, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Here are also a few more: http://www.pcmag.com/slideshow/story/263815/the-feminine-side-of-game-design-10-female-game-designers With just these and those I've already mentioned you can quickly make a list of more than a dozen to replace the current mess, then note this list is only partial, and have it done for now. --AggressiveNavel (talk) 17:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

And here are some executive types: http://fortune.com/2014/09/23/10-powerful-women-video-games/ and http://files.tested.com/photos/2014/11/23/71050-women-in-gaming-b22gwdhiqaehxrw.jpg for more content creators (most of them have articles). --AggressiveNavel (talk) 17:34, 8 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I disagree that the current list is misleading in any way, but I am receptive to the idea of trimming it or splitting it out into its own article. Frankly the list seems like something much more suited to a category to me. At any rate it might be a good idea to draw up a proposal in a sandbox or here in talk before just axing out the material. -Thibbs (talk) 22:08, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

And of course nothing comes out of it as always and this section is going remain there until the fall of fossil fuels based civilization. GG Wikipedia editors. --185.34.28.184 (talk) 14:04, 19 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Why don't you create a draft (or even a partial draft) in a user sandbox and then propose it here? That would be the easiest way to gain community consensus in favor of your idea. If there is consensus then it would only be a simple matter of copy & paste to implement it. If consensus can't be reached then there won't be any unnecessary disruption of the article. If you aren't interested in creating such a draft then I might make an attempt at it myself. -Thibbs (talk) 18:11, 19 June 2015 (UTC)


 * A category sounds good to me, but we've already got Category:Women video game designers, Category:Women video game developers, and Category:Women video game programmers‎ (I'm having trouble figuring out the difference between the last two, btw). Not sure what new category could be created. What would a separate list be titled? List of women video game designers and/or list of women video game developers? Those seem like they would have to end up including everyone we have an article for, I think. Then we'd have to consider doing the same for men in those groups, which is frankly rather daunting to contemplate. I've copy edited a number of horrifyingly huge lists in my time, not fun. —Torchiest talkedits 02:48, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
 * To address the side question of the difference between designers, developers & programmers. I envisage that they are analogous to movie script writers, producers & directors/special effects, respectively. Alternately, one might consider a developer to be the same as a project manager; not necessarily involved in the hands on programming. Hope this helps in some small way. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 20:59, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
 * That's alot of examples of notable in those categories, however, it would be an idea to make a critera that is stated rather than just "Notable", as that's very unspecified. For example, Artistical notability, Musical notability, Design notability, Programming Notability etc etc. That would help it to become more specific and less vague than just notable. Of course, pioneers notability would help with women such as Roberta. (Or Any from this image found on a Chan area. [Basic Notability of women]. TheRealVordox (talk) 20:41, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Notable women in the video game industry
Can we add these?


 * Anna Kipnis - Psychonauts
 * Ayako Saso - Final Fantasy
 * Ayano Otsuka - Yarn Yoshi
 * Fumie Kamatani - Nights into Dreams, Phantasy Star
 * Jen Zee - Supergiant's bastion
 * Kiki Wolfkill - Project Gotham racing series
 * Kinu Nishimura - one of Capcom's main designers — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.140.107 (talk) 02:25, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Linda Currie - Jagged Alliance
 * Lorraine McLees - Halo
 * Lucy Bradshaw (Maxis boss) - Maxis label of Electronic Arts
 * Mariel Cartwright - Skullgirls
 * Mari Shimazaki - Bayonetta
 * Mary DeMarie - Homeworld/Deus
 * Muriel Tramis - Geisha, Asterix, Urban Runner etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.140.107 (talk) 01:56, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Shannon Studstill = God of War
 * Sherry McKenna - Oddworld
 * Susan Manley - SSI and Electronic Arts

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.140.107 (talk) 00:52, 26 December 2015‎


 * Do any of them meet WP:GNG? If so it would be a better idea to create actual stand-alone articles on them first. -Thibbs (talk) 01:03, 26 December 2015 (UTC)


 * also, while I'm all for expanding the list to include notable people in the field I have to wonder where we should draw the line between "females in the industry" and "notable females in the industry." For instance, I dunno if we should consider Lorelei Shannon a notable woman in the video game industry because most of her work is focused on writing fiction and game manuals. We should probably take a step back before this list turns from "notable women" to just "women in the video game industry." Sethyre (talk) 05:25, 26 December 2015 (UTC)


 * I believe some would meet WP:GNG. I have at least one of the names on a list of Women in Video Games that I am (very, very slowly) working on creating articles for. See Fortune articles here & here for details. Any help with sourcing, article creation, copyediting, etc. would be greatly appreciated. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 07:07, 26 December 2015 (UTC)


 * If they live up to normal notability standards, integrate them them with existing content or create appropriate content to integrate them in. Bullet lists of people outside of actual list articles are never appropriate, though.
 * Peter Isotalo 11:14, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Retro source regarding women developers
I was searching through my stash of 90s EGM issues and came across an article on this subject. Looks like a strong source so I scanned it: image album. Citation:. Interesting read—hope it's useful. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 02:06, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Demographics of female players
This section is American-centric. Recommend reframing this section (and article, actually), to be more global in scope. Aolivex (talk) 21:35, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

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Problematic conclusion
"Female participation in gaming is increasing. According to a Entertainment Software Association survey, women players in the United States increased from 40% in 2010 to 48% in 2014. Today, despite the dominant perception that most gamers are men,[4] the ratio of female to male gamers is balanced, mirroring the population at large." See, the problem I have with this is that it includes things such as mobile games. Also, the word "gamer" as self-identification does not mean that's how it is. Fact remains that, on average, men ARE more "hardcore" in gaming and DO game more often. The big difference is what kind of games are included. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 20:16, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * First, WP:FORUM. Second: So? Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 21:50, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

This is a widely-held belief, but I think most of it rests on empirical evidence. That's not to say that it's not true, but for the purposes of this article we'd need evidence in the form of reliable source reports that conclude as much. A breakdown of female interest/participation in the various video game genres might make an interesting subsection, and a few words about the hardcore-vs-casual divide might be appropriate if properly sourced, but I would avoid emphasizing that since those are ultimately subjective terms and because they are prone to pejorative labeling. -Thibbs (talk) 11:58, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Proposed Edit To "Women in video game streaming" Section
Hello everyone. I noticed a banner denoting tone issues in the "Women in Video Game Streaming" section. While it won't fix every issue, I believe it would help to shorten the second paragraph about Geneviève Forget into a single sentence. As it stands, the paragraph takes attention away from the topic of streaming, instead focusing on another topic: Forget's life. I propose shortening the paragraph to: Geneviève Forget, a video game streamer, states in a Kotaku interview that "Harassment does happen in my stream chat from time to time that people start discussing my appearance but it really isn't the focus on my stream. I'd like to think people come back to watch it because it is quite entertaining and I try to interact with the chat as much as possible." NothingAboutFlowers (talk) 18:22, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Women in video game advertising
Not sure if this is within the scope of the article, but I read an article yesterday about a president of a video game company (who is male) complaining that the Tokyo Game Show looks too much like a hostess club, full of scantily-dressed beautiful women trying to lure visitors to company booths. The article was in Japanese, but if this is the place to include such information, I can provide links and translations. I'll post a similar message at the game show's talk page too. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 00:27, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
 * It sounds like this source might be a good addition to the "Controversies" section of the booth babe article. -Thibbs (talk) 10:50, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the tip . Should that article be linked from the see also section of this article? AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 23:59, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't see why not. It's surely a tangentially related topic suitable for exploration. -Thibbs (talk) 03:24, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Done. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 04:29, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

New editor to the page.
Hello, I am a student and through the rest of this semester, I will be working on edits to this article. Some of the ideas for editing this article was to add the controversies of #Gamergate and the events leading up to it. Also, I would like to talk about the harassment of female developers and women that play the video games. If there is any questions, please feel free to contact me through on Wikipedia. Would be interested in your feedback.Wanderlust1138 (talk) 01:18, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Please be aware this article is about "the relationship between women and video games" as a broad topic, not about other peoples opinions of women and video games or controversies. Please see Sexism in video gaming, Gender representation in video games, Video game culture, Video game controversies and Gamergate controversy for articles that are likely more appropriate for the discussion or inclusion of Gamergate related material (most of which is so narrow and specific in focus as to realistically only be applicable to the main Gamergate article). Koncorde (talk) 09:47, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with Koncorde. Unfortunately the Gamergate controversy article may not be able to be edited by new users due to recent episodes of vandalism, but Sexism in video gaming sounds like a much more likely article for the kind of expansion you're suggesting, . I'm thinking specifically about that article's subsection devoted to the topic of harassment. Good luck with your assignment. -Thibbs (talk) 10:21, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Update to Women in Competitive Gaming Section
Hello, I'm a student and as a project we are making edits to Wikipedia pages over various topics, mine as you may have guessed is Women and Video Games. I'm new to this but excited to participate! Feel free to contact me through Wikipedia. I'm looking forward to hearing any constructive criticisms you may have about my edits.O Roman O (talk) 01:16, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

I have a possible entry to make, but I'd like some opinions on it before I do. League of Legends is one of the most popular games in the world and one of the most-watched esports in competitive gaming. Maria "Remi" Creveling, was the first female player to take part in the League Championship Series (LCS), but she does have one X and one Y chromosome (is trans) so I'm not sure. With so few female gamers who make it competitively though I couldn't think of any other reason she wouldn't have already been added. Here's what I want to post:

League of Legends player Maria (Sakuya) Creveling, who at the time was known as Remilia or (Remi), finished first in the 2015 Challenger Series Summer Split along with her teammates Renegades which qualified the team for the 2016 NA LCS Spring Split. She became both the first female and also the first transgender player to compete professionally in the North America League Championship Series (NA LCS). She joined Renegades as their support player, but stepped down three weeks into the 2016 NA LCS Spring Split due to anxiety issues. O Roman O (talk) 12:56, 31 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Where would you be placing this edit of yours? Dvalentine (talk) 04:22, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

I placed it as an update to the Women in Competitive Gaming Section. O Roman O (talk) 02:02, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Addition of Barbie Fashion Designer to Historical prevalence sub topic.
I have just made an addition to the Historical prevalence sub topic. This edit is to show the historical importance of one of the first majorly successful games created specifically with girls as the target audience. There had been games for girls before but none had seen much success until 1997, when Mattel, Inc. released Barbie Fashion Designer. Within its first two months this game sold over 500,000 copies, outstripping such industry megaliths as "Doom" and "Quake," demonstrating that interactive media aimed specifically at girls might have strong market appeal O Roman O (talk) 02:10, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The source you are using does not support your figures. The source states "within the first year, this game sold over 600,000 copies". In the Wikipedia article you've written "Within its first two months this game sold over 500,000 copies". The source isn't bad (i.e. it's not unreliable), but I do worry that the text you've added may be more about the historical sales figures for a specific game rather than a demographic snapshot of the prevalence of women playing video games. Almost all of the other bullet points reflect surveys and studies on the percentages of women engaging with different kinds of gaming (arcade gaming, console gaming, computer gaming, etc.) instead of sales figures for individual games. I would support adding that information to the article on Barbie Fashion Designer if it existed but, seeing as it doesn't, I think the first step should be to create an article on that topic instead. If need be we could also add a note on it in the prose of a section like "Genre preferences", but I think it would be best to have a proper article on the topic (i.e. Barbie Fashion Designer) to link first. -Thibbs (talk) 03:56, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

ADDED + International gamer gender ratios for 2016 to survey data
Hello everyone, I've just added 2016 ratios of international gamer demographics under the survey data category in Demographics of Female Players. There were many European countries I couldn't find any new information on because from what I can tell not all of these countries are updated frequently, but I still added what is currently available. I'm still pretty new to Wikipedia, and I was wanting to add the 2016 ratios to the right of the 2012 ratios. Would anyone with the know how re-position it for me please. O Roman O (talk) 22:27, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I have merged the two tables because the only real reason to have both is to compare the change in the figures and this is better handled by locating them alongside each other. I'll note again that the line-graphs (tracking individual countries with the longest unbroken chains of data) are the primary places to examine change in time data whereas the table (comparing as many countries as possible across a single year) is the primary place to examine gender ratio differences between different countries. As such we should endeavor to locate data on as many countries from the newly added year (2016) as possible in order to match the comparison value of the 2012 data. Down the road I can imagine tracking all (or most) countries on a single line-graph allowing comparison through time, but for now the lack of consistent data from countries other than USA and Canada make such a graph problematic. See also my comments in the next section below. -Thibbs (talk) 15:16, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Is this source accurate?
The Survey Data in the Demographics of Female Players data pertaining to Asian countries from source 17173 looks very unreliable. The link leads this article: https://www.techinasia.com/what-country-has-the-most-gamer-girls in which the author C. Custer states "I’m not sure exactly how 17173 compiled this data, and it seems pretty unlikely that they conducted a rigorous scientific study." Looking into it myself I found that the website is in Chinese, with google translate I couldn't find any statistics or research. Maybe if I could read it I would be able to find it but I'm doubtful. I also couldn't find anything online anywhere backing up these statistics. In fact the ESA, which is a very reliable source, reported demographics for as the USA 55% male and 45% female and not 42% for females which makes me question the whole chart's accuracy. If there's anyone who could find another source or who could confirm the reliability of the website 17173 that would be great. — Preceding unsigned comment added by O Roman O (talk • contribs) 22:40, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree. I remember when the source was added and I was rather skeptical of it myself. It would be very good to have reliable data from some of the Asian countries, but I'm not sure if 17173 would be the best place to look for it. I had looked into the specific reliability of the source several months ago and if I recall correctly I think it does see some citation from other reliable sources (which can be an indicator of its own reliability), but I forget what conclusion I came to. One thing that may be worth mentioning, though, as it speaks to your addition of the material for 2016: whereas the intention of the two line graphs is to compare changes in female gamer percentages in relation to the total population over time (in which case the longer the span of time the more meaningful the graph), the intention of the table has always been to contrast female gamer percentages between different countries within the snapshot of a single year (in which case the greater the number of countries represented the more meaningful the table). So it's not a bad idea for us to come up with a new more up-to-date table for such a comparison, but we should really be looking for tables that cover an equivalent number of countries as the one we had been using (from 2012) - so we should be shooting for ~20 countries I would guess. Anyway hopefully we can find some more figures for the new table to expand it into something a little more meaningful. And if we can find a good source for Asian statistics that would be ideal. -Thibbs (talk) 06:23, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Looking at this source again, I remembered what started me examining it when : It doesn't seem to even reflect 2012 data. Rather it is from 2013. So . If we end up determining that it is a non-RS then we can just remove the entire column. It would be excellent to come up with a good RS for Asian player ratios, though. Those data are notably lacking. -Thibbs (talk) 13:43, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Citing a Google-translated German blog
The source for the newly added "Women in the game industry" table falls short of what is required for encyclopedic uses. At its core the source is decent enough - Mimi Okabe's keynote address from the Replaying Japan 2016 conference. But what we should be citing is the keynote (via Template:Cite conference), not a random German blog that talks about the keynote. The blog is not a reliable source. At best we might add a note to the cite like "images of the conference available at j-junk blog". And we shouldn't be citing an unofficial translation of any German source when the original German is available. Non-English sources are allowed per WP:NONENG and a Google translation would certainly not be "of equal quality" to the original.

But if we look deeper we see that Okabe's sources for her figures are listed in the image we're apparently using for the cite. These are: Better than citing the keynote and providing a table with figures whose origins are hard to trace, we should probably track down the original sources Okabe was using and cite those. We can use those cites to pincite each figure in the table and then per WP:SWYGT we can cite the keynote for the table as a whole. I've started trying to track down the sources and here is what I have so far: There's a good chance that any of the sources we nail down but are unable to obtain can be requested at WP:RX.
 * 1) Fujihara (2010)
 * 2) Gourdin (2005)
 * 3) Prescott & Bogg (2010)
 * 4) Skillset (2009)
 * 5) Dyer-Whitheford & Sharman (2005)
 * 6) Geneve, Nelson & Christie (2008)
 * 1) (also available via the EIGE here)
 * 1) (also available via the EIGE here)
 * 1) (also available via the EIGE here)
 * 1) (also available via the EIGE here)

Then the table should be expanded to include the date from which the figure is taken. Without adequate context it is difficult to recognize that some of the figures we are presenting for comparison are taken from two different countries at dates separated by a half a decade. In some sectors of the tech industry this kind of information is of central significance. Remember that in 2005 the iPhone did not exist and the GameCube and PS2 were Nintendo's and Sony's most advanced consoles. Things often change quickly in tech. As this Wikipedia article develops we will probably want to move further from Okabe's specific figures and sources and toward more current figures and sources. But I think the most important thing to keep in mind when making these kinds of cross-country comparisons is that to the greatest extent possible the dates associated with the figures should be contemporaneous rather than spanning half-decades.

So... I've moved the table into storage (below) for now with the intention that it should be re-added soon after we've done a little more research work. I am rather busy off-wiki these days and I would appreciate some help in tracking down these sources and in re-formatting the table. But I'll do it myself if necessary. Cheers, -Thibbs (talk) 14:34, 28 April 2017 (UTC) [ Updated: -Thibbs (talk) 13:20, 29 April 2017 (UTC) ] [ Updated again: -Thibbs (talk) 15:29, 29 April 2017 (UTC) ]
 * I found more appropriate sources Thibbs. Its true that a lot of things have changed but these numbers are still higher than the 3% in the Women in the games industry section from 1989.


 * https://books.google.de/books?id=2BeXBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA122&lpg=PA122&dq=Fujihara+2010+gaming&source=bl&ots=TfHWrZtU8g&sig=FLyD_6BE4Tv4FZe2K3TlnnYUnK0&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjE9fywtsnTAhVE2SwKHVi2BjUQ6AEIIzAA#v=onepage&q=Fujihara%202010%20gaming&f=false


 * https://books.google.de/books?id=oWvCCAAAQBAJ&pg=PA1951&lpg=PA1951&dq=Fujihara+2010+gaming&source=bl&ots=VNfxzNgaLd&sig=lb7tC-18sSQ5aGIl95fT76_kLvA&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjE9fywtsnTAhVE2SwKHVi2BjUQ6AEIJzAB#v=onepage&q=Fujihara%202010%20gaming&f=false


 * https://books.google.de/books?id=nYyGAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA124&lpg=PA124&dq=gourdin+2005+gaming&source=bl&ots=TGbYG82BId&sig=0LsTeAtG2BTNY1Bk-PmB-XGQua8&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjehY37uMnTAhXBVSwKHVRNBRwQ6AEIIzAA#v=onepage&q=gourdin%202005%20gaming&f=false

links.--Crossswords (talk) 10:35, 29 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the help, Crossswords. I've updated the list above so we now have proper references for all six sources used. These sources now need to be located so their claims can be verified and specific page numbers added to the refs. We have links to at least 2 of them and already we can see issues. Whereas Okabe's keynote gave figures of 11.2% female developers in the US, the IGDA report she cited seems to suggest that the figure is actually 11.5%. Once we've verified all of the sources we can begin inserting them into the final table. I'll see if I can find anything further during the day today. -Thibbs (talk) 13:20, 29 April 2017 (UTC)


 * OK. Here's what I've got so far.
 * ❌Fujihara (2010) - The ref we've found seems to represent a translation of the original Japanese. As such I don't immediately find any trace of the source. We'll have to keep looking before we cite it.
 * ✅Gourdin (2005) - USA 11.5% figure verified.
 * Prescott & Bogg (2010) - Limited Google Book preview available. The specific pages are missing, but in the preview I saw it looks like they correspond to a Chapter 12 by Anne Manuel of the University of Bristol, UK whereas the Prescott & Bogg chapter is #7 and it spans pages 138-158. This may just reflect a different edition of the same book. There are also some pages missing from the limited view I saw of Chapter 7, but I was able to determine that the 12% figure supplied by Skillset in 2006 was reported on page 143 - this time in context as a 4% increase over the figure for 2005 (which presumable would be 11.5%). As Prescott & Bogg are UK researchers, and because they seem to be using the Skillset data, we may be able to use this source as a redundant source or even simply eliminate it.
 * ✅Skillset (2009) - UK figure verified ("4% in 2009"), although it also shows results of "12% in 2006" (i.e. a 3x decrease in female game devs) so that gets at what I was saying previously about the rapid pace of change in the tech sector.
 * ✅Dyer-Whitheford & Sharman (2005) - Found a copy at cjc-online. Updated the list above. "10-15%" figure for Canada verified.
 * ❌Geneve, Nelson & Christie (2008) - Found a copy via http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu and there is a section on Australian game dev gender ratios (p.10-11), but there are no specific figures. There are two sources cited in the "ratio" section of the paper ("Faulkner, 2000" and "Camp, 1997") so these may be worth following up on in case that was how Okabe found the ">10%" figure she used, although if Camp was her source then we're talking about a 20-year-old datapoint which may not be meaningful if compared against current datapoints from other countries. Another possibility is that this isn't the correct 2008 paper by Geneve, Nelson, & Christie. Can anyone find another paper published by these three authors in 2008?
 * So the USA, UK, and Canadian datapoints are verified and we need to keep up the search for the Japanese and Australian figures. I think I'll go ahead and restore the table with proper refs this evening unless someone else wants to go for it. -Thibbs (talk) 15:29, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
 * In the 2015 Gamification source you linked, Crossswords, in chapter 98 (which is authored by Fujihara), p.1951, there is a reference to the 2010 paper which corroborates the 12.8% Japanese claim. We could possibly use that as our source. Worryingly the 11.2% USA statistic is again repeated despite the fact that it doesn't appear in the IGDA report. Looks like sloppy cut-n-paste research may be to blame. I wonder where the 11.2% figure originally came from... I'll keep looking for more. -Thibbs (talk) 18:05, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

The following table shows the proportion of women among game developers in several countries in 2005 to 2010.

Introduction
The intro currently says "... females have been found to make up about half of all gamers", and then goes on to talk about "advocates for increasing the number of female gamers". Unless these advocates think that females should comprise more than half of all gamers, this seems contradictory. I'm sure there's a good reason for this situation (perhaps these advocates are talking about PC gamers as opposed to mobile gamers or something), but at the moment the introduction is confusing. Ornilnas (talk) 14:53, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Fair point well made. I think the study stating the proposed 50% needs better context. It is being given undue weight in the intro by failing to be clear about what type of gaming this reflects and why there is a continued push for widening the market. Koncorde (talk) 14:57, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree with Koncorde here. If I remember the history of the development of the lede correctly, I believe the article first began making the claim that women were a minority of those considering themselves gamers. Since then demographics have (very slightly) changed to bring it closer to 50-50, and different kinds of studies evaluating different markets have made a case for a 50-50 split. Context would probably be very helpful. -Thibbs (talk) 03:19, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

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Gaming generally not harmful for boys, may affect girls' social skills: study
https://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/gaming-generally-not-harmful-for-boys-may-affect-girls-social-skills-study-1.4391348 SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 11:29, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * We should be careful taking statements out of articles like that. The summary / conclusion is a lot more nuanced.
 * "“Girls who play video games may be more isolated socially and have less opportunity to practice social skills with other girls, which may affect their later social competence,” a press release for the study stated."
 * Is later followed by:
 * "Interestingly, the researchers suggested that poor social competence may actually drive children to retreat from social situations in order to play video games instead."
 * In effect the conclusion suggests socially less competent people play games, and they are likely to be socially less competent two years later too. I'd need to read the full study but the analysis isn't great. Koncorde (talk) 12:44, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

"Women in video game streaming"
Kotaku anecdotes need to be replaced by some proper content like data and statistics. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 19:37, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Why is there no article men and video games?
As men make up at least half of all gamers, surely there should be one as well? An alternative would renaming this article, and making it non-gynocentric. Already it covers some of the subject, like with various statistics regarding the distribution by sex. There's in fact en entire category https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Women_and_video_games and yet there's no https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Men_and_video_games too. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 14:35, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The reason is that, apparently, reliable sources have covered the topic of "women and video games" in depth, but not the topic of "men and video games". If you find relevant sources (and it's quite possible that there are some), feel free to start that article. WP:NPOV requires that we treat each issue according to its weight in reliable sources, not according to some notion of parity.  Sandstein   14:54, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Even lots of this very article as for right now covers men too, just only gynocentric way. For example "Historical prevalence" section is about men just as much as women, as is most of "Genre preferences". Of course males are surely being studied, as they compromise over half of the market. Btw, what is the sex distribution regarding WHO's allleged gaming disorder? And my second proposal was to just rename this article in a sex-neutral way, and then rewrite it accordingly. And of course parity is impossible in some ways, such as "In December 2015, Kayla "Squizzy" Squires became the first female Call of Duty player to turn professional" I don't think the first professional male Cod player can be identified. Gender representation in video games does an okay-ish job in being non-discriminatory (not perfect as female characters still are discussed about 3-4 times more than male, despite being less numerous, and despite male characters being overwhelmingly subjects of violence it they don't even have a corresponding section "Violence against men" at all). --SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 15:14, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * We write about what our sources write about. If you find sources about men, qua men, in video games, feel free to start an article about that topic. This article is about women, and therefore of course there won't be much about men in particular in it.  Sandstein   18:03, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

And as i told you, even this article in the current state right now is also about men. But it's named only after women. So something like Sex differences among gamers would be more fitting and non-discriminatory. Or perhaps Men and women in video gaming. Etcetera. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 19:01, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Strongly disagree with that idea. The article is written to discuss the disparity and the prioritization of men over women. A fair amount of content is also only about women.

(also the title super reminds me of "where's International Men's Day?" posts. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 03:11, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

"The article is written to discuss the disparity and the prioritization of men over women" by completely ignoring the men and 100% prioritizing the women? Is that really what you meant to say?

Again, there's no corresponding article (and no corresponding category) to discuss the majority of gamers and game developers (both historically and currently). But there's no need to make them (and just repeating all the statistics), just to rename the existing ones to be inclusive and non-discriminatory.

It can also cover the games designed for men and boys, just as it now covers the games for (and often by) women and girls. "See also: Non-violent video game § Gender perspective" can be now how males like violent games, and why. It's all just the other side of ying & yang, interconnected.

And for example see this:


 * The researchers named two results from their study that surprised them. One is that more sexist jokes were actually sent to men than to women. Secondly, researchers found that female participants sent “significantly more sexist jokes than male participants.” https://gamerant.com/sexualization-female-video-game-characters-sexual-harassment-study/

There are both genders involved and covered even in this very recent report, showing how supposedly "sexualized" female characters cause women players to sexually harass male players. (And right now, the article talks only about how "Although some of the population of male gamers have been the source of harassment towards female gamers and over-sexualization of the characters" - which is oddly states, is "the population of male gamers have been the source of ... over-sexualization of the characters" about mods?)

The International Men's Day indeed does exist just like Women's (Wikipedia: "focusing on men's and boys' health, improving gender relations, promoting gender equality, and highlighting male role models"). I'm confused were you just not aware because in Poland we celebrate it 'even' in schools but I don't know about yours, or were you just trying to be ironic but I seriously don't understand how or why. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 06:02, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
 * You have been told previously, go and create the other article or articles. Derailing this one by pushing a single POV isn't really going to achieve much. The treatment or perceived view of women in video games is significant enough in its own right to be segregated, even if there was a singular "gender in video games" central article. Koncorde (talk) 12:17, 21 June 2019 (UTC)


 * I also echo what everyone else has been saying. SNAAAAKE!! your original question seems to be "Why is there no article men and video games?" The answer is because nobody has written the article. If you can find reliable sources sufficient to support such an article then please feel free to create it. If you are too busy to do it yourself you might consider making a request at WP:VG/R. -Thibbs (talk) 13:18, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

I changed very early to turning this article sex-neutral, if I really must repeat myself again. And if I really must repeat myself, this article already covers men - for example, covering every kind of preferences according to the sex, it's this percentage of men and this of women, and it's all in the article right now. Do I really need to repeat myself repeatedly? I said once "An alternative would renaming this article, and making it non-gynocentric. Already it covers some of the subject, like with various statistics regarding the distribution by sex." and then "And my second proposal was to just rename this article in a sex-neutral way, and then rewrite it accordingly." and then "But there's no need to make them (and just repeating all the statistics), just to rename the existing ones to be inclusive and non-discriminatory.", what wasn't clear about it so I have to repeat it for the 4th time now? Or actually 5th time, because I wrote "And as i told you, even this article in the current state right now is also about men. But it's named only after women. So something like Sex differences among gamers would be more fitting and non-discriminatory" too (where as "I told you" was because I was already repeating myself).

Just take a look at every table/graph and many statistics, the men are already being covered as we speak. And so again as I apparently need to repeat myself without end to get any sort of point through all of table/graphs in the article are primarily about the differences between men and women. To cite the captions: "DSA/ESA-reported USA female to male gamer ratios per platform"; "ESAC-reported Canadian female to male gamer ratios"; "International comparison of gamer gender ratios"; :"The study reported the following proportions of gamers within a genre are women or men:"; "According to data collected by Quantic Foundry in 2016, the primary motivations why people play video games differ, on average, by gender. While men frequently want most to compete with others and destroy things, women often want most to complete challenges and immerse themselves in other worlds:".

The word "men" already appears 33 times, and the word "male" 44 times. It's already about men, it's just not presented as such.

And do you people really imply "The treatment or perceived view of men in [sic] video games is insignificant"? Despite being the historical and current majority - insignificant? I do know the Western society is gynocentric, but this is just absurd. Anyway, it's not "in games" here (as opposed to other articles, already sex neutral), it's about people playing games, and more precisely about the sex differences. I have no idea what the "pushing a single POV" was supposed to be about, and what's more I'm not even interested. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 19:41, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Attempting to make this about marginalising men is utter tripe and if you want to throw around gynocentrism etc then you are advertising your blatant POV push even more than it already was. The significance of the treatment and experience of women is entirely because they are the historical minority in and around the entertainment industry that is video gaming. If you want an article on "gender and video games", or "men and video games" go and create it. Koncorde (talk) 20:09, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

It's funny, because I'm here against a "blatant POV push" and making it just sex-neutral. Btw, I just checked one caption for truth and found it false: "Video gaming (comprises PC and Console gaming)[b]" claiming 50%. In reality, it's also about mobile phones ("mobile devices"). See the reference yourself: http://theesa.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/ESAC18_BookletEN.pdf And this too is also about men (around half of the sex-related statistics in this pdf are about the preferences of men, as opposed to the preferences of women, because the men are apparently "significant" after all). For example: "64% of of female gen x gamers most often play on their mobile device" & "54% of female millennial gamers most often play on their mobile device", as opposed to men who mostly use computers or consoles. Th graph, due to the false caption, is a wiki-hoax. And I didn't even fact check anything else! SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 20:22, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, yes, fighting the good fight against "gynocentrism". Please go and write the article you seem to want. Koncorde (talk) 21:34, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
 * SNAAAAKE!! I think it would work best if you made a draft to suggest what you are talking about. At this point it's mostly unsupported assertions/hand-waving and I'm concerned that there are big issues with WP:DUE coverage. If we can't come to an agreement I think we should ask for external opinions from the associated mid- and high-importance WikiProjects (WP:VG, WP:FEM, etc.), but for now let's start with the draft. -Thibbs (talk) 03:11, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Koncorde: This article should be turned into as you called "People in video games", or perhaps redirected into Women are wonderful effect (like this article apparently presents them as only helpless victims of harassment by only men and never mentions any harassment by women of anyone - with such writing as "population of male gamers have been the source of harassment", despite how we know women for example conduct half of sexist harassment of other women on Twitter: and of course some women harass men too).

Anyway, here's Roberta Williams in 1988 talking about why most women were not interested in video games: which of course had nothing to do with harassment and all to do with sex differences (to quote Roberta, "girls need extra push" which was because they are "are mostly uncomfortable with technical things"). What changed most of all by now is the popularity of easy-to-use and affordable smartphones used by anyone, and the free-to-play games, many of them specifically targeting female demographics (match 3, hidden objects, and so forth - the article's own charts show it). Btw, the lie "Video gaming (comprises PC and Console gaming)[b]" that was mostly about phones in case of women was not corrected by you, after you instead spent your time making a snarky reply to me instead of correcting the article. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 14:00, 29 June 2019 (UTC)


 * SNAAAAKE!!, you're not really bringing much to the discussion here except bare assertions and anecdotes. I looked at the "Video gaming (comprises PC and Console gaming)[b]" sources for example and I can't find any place saying that the female gaming statistics are about cellphone usage. Maybe you could point to a specific page number to corroborate that claim so that it could be corrected? And please do consider preparing a draft (or some sort of a draft in sketch form) to demonstrate your proposal. I get the sense that you feel like you've already explained your proposal five or six times, but if you could translate it into a draft I think it would be much clearer. It sounds like you're proposing major changes so it makes sense to take a measured approach until we can come to a consensus. -Thibbs (talk) 15:29, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

That's not anecdotes. Here's also another historical piece on the nsex differences, "Why Women Don't Play Video Games": I can provide large numbers of similar articles and interviews that have nothing to with the lead's "Sexism in video gaming, including sexual harassment, as well as underrepresentation of women as characters in games" (the latter also unrelated - the article happens to include a screnshot from Roberta William's own King's Quest with a caption "King's Quest games woo women with adventure and romance" showing a male protagonist). There's nothing about anyone "harassing" anyone, and there's no "sexism" anywhere there neither- other than here in the deitorial: where the editor Gina Smith (yes, a woman) calls the "sexism" ("sexism" being in quote marks) accusations a "baloney" and repeats what is and really should be just obvious: "Basically, women aren’t as gadget crazy as guys; they generally prefer socializing to sitting in front of a PC all night long; they’re less interested in blood and gore;  and their competitive instincts don’t find an outlet in besting a machine. Admittedly, women buy only a tiny percentage of computer games, but so what?". And again (because you proved everything needs to be repeated to you people here), I can bring you many of such articles and interviews (also with for example Japanese designers like Rieko Kodama denying "sexism" in Japan as well). (This actually goes beyond just this article and into the ones such as Sexism in video gaming.) Anyway - it's all about sex differences (aka gender differences, for those who believe in John Money's concepts). And since I REALLY need to repeat literally everything, here's a repetition: - mobile phones are "mobile devices". I knew the claim of "50% PC and console gamers now" had to be a false when I saw it, checked the source (which almost no one reading or even editing ever does for anything ever), and of course it was false, not surprising me at all. Here's about Smith, btw: Gina Smith (author) (for Williams, since I need to repeated everything: Roberta Williams - actually one of the creators of the American computer game industry). SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 15:33, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Your representation and quote mining of the source Electronic Entertainment 09 is utterly disengenuous. Firstly you are missing the context of how she is framing her decison making (while also discussing the "games marketed to men" aspect, and the idea that sub-par Barbie games are all girls want), but then also the fact that is it is from 30 years ago. Please go and write the article you want, because as it stands all you are presenting is your own bias. Koncorde (talk) 15:59, 29 June 2019 (UTC)


 * I'm presenting you YOUR bias, a false narrative. Here's a sample article from Kodama that I talked about, not the only one but just a sample: "I have never felt such a thing" (asked about feeling "being persecuted"), "As a female creator, I have never experienced any discrimination or disgraceful behavior towards me at all", "I don't think this is a problem of gender", "I have never felt any restriction due to my gender" (and for all the waliling here, in """Sexism in video gaming""" - a just horribly written article that I just took a look at it and saw "that aren't associated with female players such as the Sims" - literally written like that, and elsewhere about the perils of "oversexualized" female characters, whatever "oversexualized" even means as it's not only not defined but can't be defined, for example see as she's asked what female character does she respect and says "Lulu in FF particularly impresses me", and this is Lulu:  - btw the article that I myself made about Lulu (Final Fantasy) here on Wikipedia had been destroyed and turned into a redirect, thank you very much for respecting my work). As you showed again and again, i need to repeate everything repeatedly, so once again: I can provide large numbers of similar articles and interviews, and no, not from just "30 years ago", like if it even matters in the article that is about historical trends and includes the phrase "Since the 1990s" in its very lead. And come on, disregard the "anecdotes" of the industry's top figures such as Kodama or Williams in favor of such authoritative sources, as I just checked your reference following the appearance of the word "oversexualized", "Wilde, Tyler. The Top 7... Girl gamer stereotypes. GamesRadar. 18 August 2008." (NUMBER 5 WILL SURPRISE YOU). "Baloney" indeed. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 16:30, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I didn't write this article and have made very minimal contributions. 1. Kodama "of course I can't speak for other female creators" context, "This may be because I am single" qualification. The term "persecution" is also loaded (and may reflect a translation issue) and the rest of the article is filled with interesting perspectives on her experience, singular. You are quote mining to present position by synthesising context between unrelated (or qualified) statements. Stop, please. It is dishonest and easy to verify by reading the source ourselves. 2. Oversexualised is irrelevant to your argument and appears to be a tangent so you can complain about WP:OWN or something. A character may be both "interesting" and presented in a sexualised manner that is incongruous with the subject matter. I wouldn't know, I don't like Final Fantasy. 3. Unfortunately that appears to be a dead link for Games Radar which is a pity, so I couldn't tell you what the exciting number 5 was. 4. You are still not presenting anything significant other than your own personal distaste. Koncorde (talk) 17:32, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

"actually not supported by the source" - apparently: I really needed to do it: (200 hrs in ms paint) SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 17:59, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry it took you so long. The single source you included is from 2018. It might surprise you to learn that the source from 2000 doesn't mention phone, mobiles, or indeed anything apart from PC and Console gaming. Beyond that, all of the sources including the 2018 source that you linked cover video game platforms. The claim that the study covers "all electronic devices" is obviously far too broad and is not supported by the sources. -Thibbs (talk) 18:42, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

I have a "personal distaste" for a false narrative, yes. Come and give me some historically acclaimed Japanese or any other video game creator claiming to having ever been a victim of sexism. Not any failures and/or professional victims, but for example anyone from (you can check their articles as of their achievements). Or at least until recently, discounting for example the rumors of Amy Hennig (in the picture) being "forced" out from ND by the self-proclaimed male-feminists Druckmann and Straley. I don't see in this collection, also because I don't even think she has public photos online, but for example also Kinu Nishimura - whose Wikipedia article here was written by me. "Oversexualised" is something that doesn't exist objectively, just as "undersexualized" doesn't. There's a good reason why the article oversexualization doesn't exist. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 18:12, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Circular logic is circular. For instance, Hiroko Yokoyama is quite clear. And for our benefit, actually mirrors the statement by Kodama regarding her being single and not having children, to quote: "Yokoyama reported that the boss said, "Because women will quit the company when they get married, the techniques won't remain with the company. Therefore, it's useless to let women take the classes."
 * In short, Kodama says she hasn't experienced sexism because she hasn't had kids or married. Hiroko says some people have experienced sexism because they were considered at risk of having kids or marrying. Socially in Japan this is framed as the habit of women removing themselves from the employment pool and so being a waste of investment. Ouch. Koncorde (talk) 19:33, 29 June 2019 (UTC)


 * That's certainly someone with claims, even as she its seems doesn't appear anywhere in EN Wikipedia, and appears only once (in ) on JP, so it's not quite an industry figure. But it's certainly something even if "but then also the fact that is it is from 30 years ago" to quote you when you don't make theatrical pain sounds in written communication. (And the article claiming being about "Japan's '90s Game Industry" shows her illustration of games from 1987-1990, the JP article mentioning her also being a game from 1990 in fact the same one.) SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 20:54, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I provided the thing you wanted. Classifying a requirement of the person being acclaimed etc is just needless attempt to gerrymander your argument to suit your own purposes. I will not be taking part any further in this conversation at this point. Go write your article. Koncorde (talk) 21:07, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree that it would be best for SNAAAAKE!! to show what he is talking about using a draft. I think it would be best to invite some additional help as well since I think we've sort of gotten ourselves into an impasse. -Thibbs (talk) 21:16, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

I also checked and it's that. Her thread only got likes (but no replies) after retweeted to her thread in English (and he's still got plenty more likes than she died, in fact about 5 times more). While her other thread got basically no engagement: when he didn't link to it for English speakers / Westerners. So it's a scandal-making / scandal-story in the West while in Japan it's not. There were no collaborating stories or just anything. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 21:23, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

And it actually made me thinking about something, which you don't have in the article - women having children. There's a lot of it and it's not all the same: Williams actually having been a mother housewife before she got into the computers and gaming. The genius-programmer Corrinne Yu actually working with her baby literally attached to her chest. That story you just shared. That's all an interesting perspective actually. And it's very specifically "Women" as men for one can't get pregnant (obviously). SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 21:40, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
 * And my second proposal was to just rename this article in a sex-neutral way, and then rewrite it accordingly – sounds like Theseus' paradox: once you rename the article and then rewrite it to suit the new title, what remains of the original article? It sounds like what you really want is to make this article go away; in that case, better start at WP:AFD. But I think you're barking up the wrong tree; article titles don't have to be "sex-neutral" at all. Should we also rename and rewrite Women's sports as Men's and women's sports? (Short answer: no. For the long answer, see Systemic bias as well as the the recent discussion on the proposed WikiProject Men.) Rather than impose a pre-existing viewpoint on reliably sourced content, Neutral point of view just means we represent sources fairly, without adding our own bias. If sources choose to focus on women in video games, that's just too bad. I'll also repeat what others have suggested, namely, if sources exist for an article about men in video games, feel free to be bold and write it. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 21:59, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

My comment on International Men's Day,, was to compare your post to those of people complaining about its absence (even when it is entirely not). Basically, I'm saying that your claim is disingenuous and you appear to be making these points less out of a desire to improve the article as much as disrupt it. Also, I never claimed that I "wanted to" write an article that excludes men. I'm writing what the RSes say. If you want to make a comparable article, then do it. You often complain about absence of articles, so I would like to see you do more and actually put this into action. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 04:56, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

EDIT: Did you honestly just try to position Roberta Williams as a monolith of women in games? Like, why is her perspective more valid than women in games who have said that they left the industry because of harassment? - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 04:59, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

i moved my response down. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 07:53, 2 July 2019 (UTC)


 * This thread is a pretty clear case of SNAAAAKE!! intentionally disrupting Wikipedia because he has a personal agenda. There is a clear consensus at Project Video games that he needs to be topic banned. I'm not watching this page as I know he's just going to flood it with personal attacks against me because I'm not taking his side in this discussion. I encourage all other editors to cease replying to him also; if you haven't figured it out yet he cannot be reasoned with on this subject. Let's just wait for his ban to take effect so we can all go back to editing in peace. Damien Linnane (talk) 09:21, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

== The entire 2002 Rieko Kodama interview (relevant questions),whose own article links to this one here from the section "On women and video games" as 'main article', about "women and video games" - also Adrian Chmielarz ==

Which female lead characters in videogames do you respect?

I respect many female lead characters. Lulu from Final Fantasy X particularly impresses me.

'''Have you ever felt persecuted for working in the videogames industry because of your gender? '''

I have never felt such thing. Of course, I can't speak for other female creators in the industry. As a female creator, I have never experienced any discrimination or disgraceful behaviour towards me at all. This may be because I'm single so I have never had to deal being married and having a baby to take care of while working.

How acceptable is it for women to play videogames in Japan?

I don't think is a problem of gender. Every day I witness both men and women enjoying games. Japanese society disapproves more of those who play too much and neglect the other key elements of everyday life, such as relationships, sleeping, and eating.

'''What proportion of Japanese videogame players are females? '''

I think, on average, there are 10 and 20 per cent of females playing videogames in Japan. It all depends on the genre: you may actually get more 20 per cent if you studied the RPG, horror and adventure genre demographics.

With more and more girls playing games what do you think needs to change if videogames are to become socially acceptable for women by other women?

I fervently believe there is a need to create themes, graphics, and systems that appeal particularly to the female user. I don't currently have precise ideas how to achieve that, I think it would be great to have more female creators in the industry. They would bring new ideas and would facilitate attracting a wider female audience.

(It's now done with hidden objects, etc. From the Polish game designer Adrian Chmielarz more recently about it: https://medium.com/@adrianchm/women-and-video-games-f0eb7a7d75fa - notes hidden objects are also mostly made by women for women, with female sensibilities all through.)

'''In your game Skies of Arcadia you assembled a primarily female team. Was this a conscious decision and, if so, why?'''

I never ended the development team to be comprised mostly of female members and this is still not my intention now. But thinking about it, looking back into my games career, I sense I'vs always had !he need to impress the feminine touch as often as possible. I think this makes my games appeal beyond the hardcore gamers to a much wider audience. So in that sense, it may look like there are I try to build games that everybody, including myself, would enjoy.

(I don't this article even really attempts to differentiate between the causal gamers and the hardcore gamers? Especially since it's includes these Canadian statistics defining someone as a "gamer" if they as much as play a video game once in a month. I see "casual" only being mentioned as a "negative stereotype" of female gamers, even as it's true in most cases, and as such it's a fact - "negative" or not.)

What do you think is currently restricting the development and use of electronics in general by women?

Personally, since I began in this industry, my career has been very smooth in this respect, so I have not felt any restriction due to my gender. From my perspective there is no creator gender problem. Its all about users. You make games because you like them and because you want to share your creations with users. They would enjoy them, would be surprised, excited or feel comfortable. So you are able to feel that them is no problem in your game-making process and you would feel no limits. In the past there were only a few female creators so it may have looked like we needed to fix that. In reality, nowadays [2002], there are many female programmers in Japan so one doesn't feel the old impression of imbalance between the sexes.

(Edge 78, p. 79.) SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 19:09, 29 June 2019 (UTC)


 * What is your question here, SNAAAAKE!!? Are you asking if you can cite/add this interview to the Women and video games article? -Thibbs (talk) 19:52, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

I'm no longer "quote farming out of contest" or whatever that was claimed. Rieko Kodama's article, which I don't edit at all, claims in its lead, with links here:

"In this regard, she is often asked for her thoughts on the relationship between women and video games. Kodama believes that more women are gradually taking an interest in gaming culture because they are growing up around them more as young girls. While she does not design games strictly for female audiences, she designs characters that are appealing to both men and women and avoids including elements that treat women unfairly."

The links go to the article that claims things that go directly against anything she ever said about the subject (in many interviews), claiming it's onw lead:

"Sexism in video gaming, including sexual harassment, as well as underrepresentation of women as characters in games, is an increasing topic of discussion in video game culture. Advocates for increasing the number of female gamers stress the problems attending disenfranchisement of women from one of the fastest-growing cultural realms as well as the largely untapped nature of the female gamer market. Efforts to include greater female participation in the medium have addressed the problems of gendered advertising, social stereotyping, and the lack of female video game creators (coders, developers, producers, etc.)"

As seen above:


 * She never had nothing but completely flawlessly superb personal experiences as a game creator, nor she's ever witnesses anything against female gamers as such (including no "social stereotyping" whatsoever).
 * Already in 2002 there was no "lack of female video game creators (coders, developers, producers, etc.)", so much that not only there can't one feel an "impression of imbalance between the sexes" but completely accidentally she led a mostly-female team on her recent game. And that including programmers, which is important here - in Japan women, like elsewhere, women are mostly into graphics/music/story departments.

And she enjoys and respects and is impressed by what the article claims as "sexist practices such as the oversexualization of female characters" like famously sexual Lulu. She surely herself participated in "sexist practices such as the oversexualization of female characters" in at least some people's standard of "oversexualization" (and not even limited to types such as as religiously conservative Muslims or Amishes). And btw: I once planned to make some articles about her characters, but after what happened to my articles such as Lulu's (but not only), I say fuck that, because you people just don't value my work at all. In fact, they were being destroyed precisely because they were mine, and openly so. So I only update my old character articles that exist.

Btw, this picture here of the JP girls in an arcade, illustrating the lead's narrative? I just remembered I placed it here, many years ago.

Adrian Chmielarz's article about the truth about "women in video games" (and the "untapped market" that is absolutely tapped by now) is actually titled "women and video games". It's the kind of something that should be replacing some random blogger's stupid listicle and any other crap like that, which I didn't even check. (The article "Sexism in video games" at first glance appears to be entirely garbage, even horribly written in just all ways possible.) This and my other sources I showed you, which are just sample sources and (repesting my repaeting of repeating, because i must in these communications) I can provide many many many like that. Really many. I could easily write a book about it if I wanted. (Maybe I should.)

I still think it should be turned into an article covering both sexes and the differences between them in making and playing games. It doesn't need to be 50/50 or anything like that. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 20:19, 29 June 2019 (UTC)


 * You're kind of ranting here. Who cares that you say "fuck that" about creating articles? Who cares that you added the image at the top of the screen? It's really hard to follow your very long and meandering screeds. That's probably why you end up repeating yourself over and over again. Let's try to keep things short and to the point. Why are you sharing this article? What point are you making? Are you saying that Kodama's experiences in the industry can be understood to represent the general feeling for other female creators in the industry? Are you saying that this anecdotal evidence can/should be extrapolated to get rid of all of the contrary sources? Can you explain what you are asking for in a paragraph or less? -Thibbs (talk) 21:12, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

I'm saying that, as her article claims without my input: "In this regard, she is often asked for her thoughts on the relationship between women and video games" (and there even a "main" template below in hers there also leading here), she's


 * 1) Recognised authority on the subject and as such should be used here
 * 2) Should not be directly contradicted like that, espeically with claims or theories stated as if they were indisputable facts

Also she's not alone in that, as I already showed you, and it was just only samples.

Also the article shouldn't been written so blatantly female-centric (including the title) but doesn't need to be 50/50 or anything like that. Making another one is senseless because it would be largely a fork repeating most of the statistics, or needlessly having different statistics on the same subjects. Like Gender representation in video games (not like it's a well written article, but I now mean just the approach) is not "Representation of women in video games". SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 21:53, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Btw, regarding the ridiculous and horrible article Sexism in video games, video games are again singled out to be attacked as something uniquely evil in the world, even while there's no Sexism in films (or by any other name) despite Sexual abuse in Hollywood (not appearing in no film-related categories) and so forth. There's also no Sexism in literature, no Sexism in music, nor any other form of media / entertainment industry. --SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 18:03, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Her position, in context, all says that she cannot speak for other people and provides the context of having never married or had kids as a reason for her experience being unusual. On that basis she has already provided two exceptions to her own experience, and a third example is one of the least committal answers to her assembled female team. She is one experience, in Japan. Not a universal experience. And her success, and context of being unmarried and without kids have been promoted by herself as potential reasons why she did not experience any sexism. This is not a denial of its existence, but the absence in her own professional life.
 * regarding other wiki articles, there is at least one article at Misogyny in horror films, there is discussion of Gender in speculative fiction which has a partner article at Women in speculative fiction. There are others discussing very similar topics. Koncorde (talk) 20:58, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
 * turning your example around, there are articles on Sexual abuse in Hollywood and Sexual harassment in the military, So it looks like video games aren't being singled out for attack after all. In any case, any problems that may exist with Sexism in video games are off-topic here. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 22:10, 1 July 2019 (UTC) OK, I see now that Sexism in video gaming also covers harassment – struck text above. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 00:06, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

(For Bryn in the previous section) Women's sports are segregated by sex due to sex differences (and yes, I did propose to change this article here I mean "Women and video games" to be about SEX DIFFERENCES too). If they weren't, there wouldn't be "women in sports" practically at all, because they wouldn't be able to compete. Video games are different as they're much less physical, and so occasionally women are entirely capable to compete with men - for example, see my article Kayane (but still if you look at her table, it's still often in sex-segregated matches). It's not about a non-existing hypothetical women's esports anyway (by which I mean a hypothetical corresponding article, because women's esports as I mentioned with Kayane's record do exist alright), which wouldn't anywhere so negative. Singling video games as evil would be like making Violence in video games in the style of "Sexism in video games", despite no game ever containing actual violence (unlike many traditional/real sports) and violence at video game events being vanishingly rare (only very recently first deaths happened when a single autistic Jewish kid shot a bunch of black people at a Madden tournament, as opposed to many events like for example Port Said Stadium riot that included large numbers of killers and the activities like football should be really scrutinized for violence that in just my country killed many people and it's customary for young people to join football gangs to physically fight each other and while there is violence in sports there's no sexism in sports too, as only video games are "sexist"). These anti-video-game hysteria as something uniqely evil and harmful about nothing is very very weird as it's one of the most innocent things possible, given the just enormous popularity of video games. I never tried "to position Roberta Williams as a monolith of women in games, what? When I told you i can give you many similar articles and interviews, i meant the ones with various figures (and even in this very thread here is Kodama, which was also just a sample). I'll make the article and it will suffer the fate of Lulu's and many others, thank you very much. SNAAAAKE!! (talk)

And so I just learnt Violence in video games DOES exist, despite no video game ever having violence "in" it (only depictions of violence, almost always of fictional violence with few exceptions such as Batman using a picture of dead Russian diplomat who was a victim of actual violence, before it was removed ,but it's not in the article because it's about make-believe pseudo-violence without calling it "fantasy violence" or "fictional violence"). See, that's what I talk about. Violence in sports, here the violence is real. I myself having never any interest in sports at all was randomly surrounded by a pack of sports fans who talked like if they're going to beat me up for being a fan of a rival club despite my denials, but turned about they were only joking about it and having their "fun" to terrify people, but every year people are getting killed and they attack each other with machetes and such. Never EVER anything like that happened to anyone regarding esports teams and yet there's this hysteria about "violence" in video games just as the one about "sexism". SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 07:43, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Sexual harassment in the military - it involves things like rapes, no one was ever raped in video games. I mean, just never. Not in the industry, not at any events. Compare it to the article's, to quite, "many recruits of both sexes and from the age of 15 had been repeatedly sexually abused by older recruits between 1967 and 1971, including by anal gang rape, and in some cases young recruits had been forced to rape each other". But the mass media mass hysteria about NOTHING in video games has results like this TV show episode showing gangs of gamers actually raping women (and trying to kill cops and more) that was "ripped from the headlines". SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 07:53, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
 * what is wrong with you - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 16:50, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Whatever you do, don't even think about Jacksonville Landing shooting then. Did you purposely omit that, or did you forget? Also, there are threats against Esport professionals regularly and League of Legends had to take action against against toxi ity that meant he was "inundated with racist tweets". Just fun? How about rape threats? Definitely fun, amirite? Koncorde (talk) 17:54, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh gross, I didn't even read the post because I couldn't handle anymore SNAAAAKE!!, but Jesus if that isn't downplaying threats of violence. It makes perfect sense that SNAAAAKE!! would think highly of GamerGate considering his employment of an age-old tactic by people who follow it. More and more it feels like SNAAAAKE!! is not merely ignorant of GamerGate's toxicity, but an active participant who is, like others have tried to do, trying to do PR for it. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 19:15, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
 * So no one has actually been raped at a video game conference (that we know of)? This entire thread is into WP:NOTFORUM territory now, but I feel the need to point out the fallacy of relative privation involved here. A given problem isn't any less notable just because a worse problem exists somewhere. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 21:03, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Koncorde: No, I didn't "purposely omit that, or did you forget" about David Katz, as always you just can't read what I write. If you scroll above, you will find my: "(only very recently first deaths happened when a single autistic Jewish kid shot a bunch of black people at a Madden tournament, as opposed to many events like for example Port Said Stadium riot that included large numbers of killers)." PLEASE read what I write, especially before insinuating about me like that.

Arbyn: Regarding the maliciousness of "tweets" and such, you can also find my story where a group of football club fans surrounded me to pretend (it was their "joke") they are going to kick me in the circle while I planned to get into fetal and cover my head until they're bored because I beleived they really mistaken my for a rival club fan, and where i noted nothing like that ever happened in case of esport teams, while only this is my "livid experience", a real threat of violence that would become actual violence, while every year people are getting killed over this bullshit in just my country and the brawls are just countless, including massive riots. Nerds who play video games are so harmless it's sad I need to do this "PR for" gamers presented in a TV show stated as based on "headlines" as literal terrorists. (As for "literal terrorists", I was once doxed by supporters of an Ukrainian militant group after they just misunderstood what I wrote and I don't know what happened next because my choice was to just ignore everything about it, nothing at all happened to me in real life which is what I sure would happen - nothing, might have bneen worse if I lived in Ukraine though.) SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 10:59, 3 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I apologise for not seeing you had made multiple individual edits and submissions, but the point stands - how can you make the statements you are making without acknowledging that these things do happen. Then it becomes very clear when you read things like "vanishingly rare" and the attempt to use the argument of "autism" as a means to deflect. This just proves the point that you are selective when it comes to facts that agree with you, and dismissive against those that do not fit your narrative. This is bias, and a clear POV that cannot be reconciled with the reliable sources and is so utterly transparent through every claim you make that even where you might present something constructive (such as Kodama's interview) you destroy your own credibility with hyperbole and quote mining. Koncorde (talk) 12:09, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for apologizing. Not really for continuing to attack me. I checked out and it was more than an autism, he was seriously screwed up for a long time, including prior hospitalizations: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/251203 In any case he was an obsessive player of a so-called "non-violent games" (actually simulating a pretty violent sport). Something like that never happened before (not since), and was shocking, while brutal violence including many mass killings is something well known in traditional sports and something people are accustomed with. But that a difference between "jocks" and "nerds" (roughly speaking), with "nerds" nevertheless resulted in comments from journalists during GG such as these that they (gamers) should have been bullied more, or that the jocks are good guys as opposed to nerds (as was written by my former friend in Polish newspaper Gazeta Wyborcza - it's behind paywall now). Another thing is mass killers and serial killers play games less than general population does. In any case I never felt in any way unsafe at or near any gaming event, didn't see anyone who did witness or heard of any situation, while when there's a football match there are cohorts of police in the streets and people better watch themselves as to not be "asking for it" from the fans. But really it's not just events, these are just occassions for their violence, they don't need them. For example, beside just attacking each other in the streets or raiding their apartments (wjazd na chate), there is a practice of ustawka to fight in remote locations without the cops (the cops sometimes arrive anyway) - see these image search photos: (the particular photo  is where one died in a fight, again) and imagine something like that ever involving gamers anywhere and esports or anything else. It's such a completely different, harmless culture, that mass media presents as something very violent ("violent" is a word often used, including "violent harassment" (you will need to copy-paste the link inside as it didn't save it and here it's being broken) despite it never having been violent) and very dangerous. These mass media articles are often influenced by Wikipedia - even outright linking to Wikipedia. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 15:44, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't disagree with your suggestion that "violence in video games" is overblown, nor do I disagree that the media and those that are politically motivated have made video games a cause celebre for the last 30 years; but the point is that it is discussed and a subject of significant investigation. It will therefore be studied, and it will therefore be reflected in Wikipedia.
 * However it is not, therefore, a "harmless culture" free of blame or discussion. Does EA Sports promote tribalism and / or profit from it? Are loot boxes exploitative micro aggressions that result in destructive behaviour from those susceptible to their predatory practice? Is rewarding violent solutions to problems in games likely to promote such behaviour amongst those that are easily suggestible? Are video games representative, and if they are not representative are they reinforcing negative stereotypes through lazy writing? Are they exclusionary?
 * You may think not, but it will be discussed because video games are approaching being the single largest economic economy for moving merchandise on the world outside of actual sports.
 * By the same token, many other walks of life are being analysed for the same issues (and have been for decades). Games are not being treated in isolation, but on the internet filled with nerds and geeks it is something that we are far more aware of (and the hyperbolic response is far greater from all directions).
 * Meanwhile it doesn't matter what mental illness a person has when committing a crime. How do you know those that commit violence in the name of football aren't also mentally ill, in the same way the terrorists of whatever origin may also be expressing some other mental illness? Koncorde (talk) 17:11, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * You need to stop handwaving this, SNAAAAKE!!. The notion that gamers or nerds don't have the capacity for violence that jocks do is silly when one considers that most serious violence is easily committed with a firearm. The Christchurch shooting wasn't committed by a jock, it was committed by an alt-right gamer. The reason people fear the notion of gamers' death threats being carried out is because they have been before, and as seen on 8chan (a GamerGate hangout), the Christchurch shooter was goaded into doing it by others. Violence is a meme to these people. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 17:53, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

(Christchurch wasn't a case of the "killerspiele" as Germans call it, the terrorist was mockingly writing about being "inspired by Spyro 3" in his manifesto in a very obvious bait for the media who nevertheless did pick it and other baits in his plan to create maximum information chaos and notoriety using memes for his now seriously declared goal of "acceleration" in which governments and in particular that of the USA will crack down on free speech and guns leading to civil wars and then a race war, to create the starting point from The Turner Diaries that he was inspired by but he has no such a far-reaching goal as in that book, at least not the one publicly shared. I just wanted to explain it to Bryn after having read his manifesto, which was probably the worst written terrorist literature I've ever read - an exact opposite of Unabomber Manifesto, with the Islamic State's Dabiq Magazine something in between because it's rally a lot like The Watchtower and I can't take that seriously. I'll also explain that chans are like reddit where boards are like subreddits - they're separate forums with different communities. So he wasn't posting on /gghq/ nor its rival boards, he was on /pol/, which stands for "Politically Incorrect" and is full of people who are very much like him in their beliefs. But there's also for example /leftypol/, the "Leftist Politically Incorrect" which is for wannabe communist revolutionaries and you can see these communities don't overlap.)

So I was told to walk away from that so I will (it wasn't even going anywhere and i was quickly sidetracked again to talk about things not very related and it was going into outer space). But I thought that maybe if you need and want sources for anything in particular to have rewrite stuff without sensationalism and singular-POV pushing I can find find and give your really what you need. Like I for example did Controversies surrounding Mortal Kombat (recently substantially rewritten again, in particular moving various crap to notes), where I covered stuff I obviously didn't agree with at all (like supposed connections to various killings) but didn't skip anything and just covered it from various perspectives including criticisms of these allegations wherever I could (really wish there was serious criticism of the bogus studies that I got listed but sadly couldn't have criticized so here they are listed one-sided even as I'm convinced it's all BS - like one another by Bushman that was recently retracted because it was so awful but it's just his normal standard of "research of video games" he's been doing for over 20 years - but not mentioning them would be dishonest while I really really feel the need to be honest - going against myself in the name of NPOV), and I can find your sources for about just anything in the same way. You probably won't but I was going to give it a try. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 18:34, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

A short version of the above is that I leave but if you need sources for something you might ask me and I might find it. (Which is especially for historical stuff and actually I'd prefer that because I have a respect and love for a lot of old game journalism and just hate most of the modern.) SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 20:27, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

2019 Chinese Hearthstone eSports trivia
I'm shifting this tidbit into the talk page from the lede where it was dumped. No prejudice against restoring it in a more reasonable location within the article. For more info see WP:LEDE. -Thibbs (talk) 01:13, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

New section suggestion
I think we should include a section covering how women are often employed as promotional models at video game events and unveilings. However, I don't know any reliable sources that have covered this topic in a neutral and detailed manner. Helper201 (talk) 15:43, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

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