Talk:Women in Muslim societies/Archive 2

Killing pregnant women
The woman in Nigeria who was sentenced to death for becoming pregnant though widowed was to have been executed after the child was born and weaned. As I understand it, in Pakistan pregnancy is also considered indubitable proof of loose behavior -- and claims of rape are not entertained, because there must be four witnesses. So any woman who is raped and gets pregnant is ipso fact guilty. Unfair.

From what I've read of prominent Islamic scholars, the most respected judges were the ones who found a way to circumvent the occasional harshness of the shari'a and find a loophole that avoided the strongest penalties. If such a judge had been presiding in the Nigerian case, surely there would have been no death sentence.

In various Quranic verses, there are rulings that such and such punishment or revenge is to be allowed -- but then is added, "but mercy is better". There seems to be a big difference between the people for whom shari'a is an excuse for ferocity, and those who want to temper it, as the Qur'an advises. Zora 04:39, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

There are far more unfair examples of mistreatment of women that you mentioned. I am, as of now, convinced that Prophet Muhammad would have objected to 99% of the stonings that happen, (I can't speak for the 1%).

Please check out the two hadith I posted in the article Zina, and you will se how opposed the Prophet was to stonings. Also check out the list of conditions as outlined by Sayyid Maodudi, which make it clear that finding a case in which stoning is justified is next to impossible. Bless sins 02:27, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Not so opposed he did not stone. There are clear hadiths that the Quran used to contain a verse relating to stoning.  Umar et al stood up and said that Muhammed stoned and so would they.  Maududi is entitled to his opinion, but he is one modern scholar.  And I do not think that it would be impossible to find a case.  This article ought to be about what Islam has been understood to be about, not what it ought to be or what it "really" is about.  Lao Wai 12:26, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Male vs. Female
I added the following to the article, but Zora reverted it:

"Muslims reject the assertion that different laws prescribed for men and women implies that men are more valuable than women, arguing that the only criterion of value before God is piety. Verse 3:36 literally reads as “the male is not like the female” is usually used to show that the value of the female is greater than or at least equal to the value of the male. "

Let's see the verses 3:35-36 in its context:

35. Behold! a woman of 'Imran said: "O my Lord! I do dedicate unto Thee what is in my womb for Thy special service: So accept this of me: For Thou hearest and knowest all things."

36. When she was delivered, she said: "O my Lord! Behold! I am delivered of a female child!"- and Allah knew best what she brought forth- "And no wise is the male Like the female. I have named her Mary, and I commend her and her offspring to Thy protection from the Evil One, the Rejected."

It is disputable whether "And no wise is the male Like the female." is said by the woman or God. Some scholars argue that since the Woman didn't like that she has delivered a female child, the saying is likely to be said by God.

But in any case, This verse proves that the value of the female is greater than or at least equal to the value of the male. Would you please let me know why shouldn't we add this to the article? Thanks --Aminz 04:56, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Because it's debateable. "Value" is a slippery word. You can put forth verses that say male and female believers are of equal "value"; someone else could adduce the verses in which women count less as witnesses, don't get as much inheritance, can be beaten but not beat their husbands, do not have a right to four husbands, etc. Putting up your verses seems like whitewashing to me -- if you don't give the other side. Also, don't we cover that already? Isn't there some comment at the top about Muslims not agreeing on how much weight to give the various verses? Zora 05:03, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay. If we include the verses that say "women count less as witnesses, don't get as much inheritance, can be beaten but not beat their husbands, do not have a right to four husbands, etc.", it would be fair to have this verse as well. Let me ask you a question: If somebody tells you "And no wise is the male Like the female.", what would be your conclusion? I think this verse deserves to be included here since other verses are included. Just to be fair. I agree that we should not say that the value of female is greater than or at least equal to the value of the male. (The reader will himself/herself conclude that :D ) How is that? --Aminz 05:34, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Aminz I think you are a bit mistaken. Saying that "male is not like the female", doesn't have anything to with value. Allah only says that men have different strengths and weaknesses than women.  Nevetheless, I agree that this verse should be inserted to show that Islam gives women a unique place. Bless sins 02:39, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Women In Islam
The following information is an outline of a research paper that I am currently working on. All references are cited.

Female Islamic Roles in Society
 * According to the Qur’an, the book of faith of the Islam religion, Muslim women were given many different rights and roles within their society:
 * Equality with men
 * Freedom from oppression and degrading treatment
 * The right of individual inheritance and ownership (of material goods)
 * Complete control of one’s marriage choice, as well as the power of divorce
 * A woman does not have to change her name if she is married
 * Islam condemns the betrayal of marital fidelity equally between men and women
 * The observance of chastity (also in conservative dress) as a sign of faith and respect (USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts). (03:22, 22 March 2006 165.190.89.153)


 * The problem with this is that it is full of value judgements and loaded terms. Equality with men?  In a theological sense that one person's soul is worth as much as another's in the eyes of God.  But in this world and in Islamic law?  Well a woman only inherits half a man, her testimony is only half a man's, her diya is only half a man's.  Freedom from oppression and degrading treatment is such a loaded term.  Oppression in the sense she cannot wear what she likes, go where she likes without her husband's permission, work where she wants?  Or are you following the standard modern apologetics trick of claiming that women are oppressed by being free?  A woman cannot change her name - it reflects the weakness of the marriage bond in Islam where a couple is not eternal or one individual, but the wife in brought in and can be sent back.  Try a less judgemental approach to what Muslims actually do and what Islam has traditionally been thought to say, not what modern Muslims would like it to say.  Lao Wai 11:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Muslim Women at Home
 * The basis of the marital union of women and men in the Muslim religion is that of “love, mercy, and mutual understanding”(Muslim Women's League). Women and men are called to treat one another as equals and marriage is based on love.  Mistreatment from or against either party is strictly condemned by the Islamic religion and traditions.
 * As for women’s roles in marriage, they different from men on equal levels because of natural capabilities alone. The women are generally considered to be the homemakers and caretakers; however, they are also allowed to participate not only in social and business endeavors, but in political activities as well.
 * The Qur’an is once again the basis of the Islamic tradition of the teaching of the spirit of humility before Allah at all times - not the support of patriarchal oppression or the submission of women (Muslim Women's League). (03:22, 22 March 2006 165.190.89.153)


 * Again a lot of loaded terms with questionable value. Marriage in Islam should be loving, but it is not based on love because, of course, they cannot meet beforehand.  Nor are they called to treat each other as equals - any marriage where the wife has to ask permission to go out and the husband can take another wife is not equal.  "Mistreatment" is a value-loaded term.  What does mistreatment consist of?  Exactly how can women be both homemakers (what a quaint and inappropriate term!) and involved in business and politics?  The Quran and aHadith and Sunna are actually.  And they support, more or less fully, patriarchal oppression of women. Lao Wai 11:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Cultural Differences, not Cultural Bondages
 * The modest dress and behavior that is native to Muslim women stems from their faith to the religion of Islam and respect and devotion to Allah and the teachings of Muhammad ibn Abdullah, known as the “Holy Last Messenger”(Shahid).
 * A woman’s relationship with her husband is one of equal love, care, respect, friendship, and loyalty.
 * A woman does not have to work, but she may choose to do so.
 * “Woman is, at least, as vital to life as man himself, and…she is not inferior to him nor is she one of the lower species”(Abdul-Ati).
 * Women enjoy some advantages over men in Muslim society: they are exempt from some religious duties, such as prayers and fasting; the hold no financial responsibility or liability; women are believed to be held in higher honor in the eyes of Allah; the husband is required to completely provide financially or the woman under all circumstances, and nothing is required of her (financial contribution to the family is optional).
 * Within the mosque and the realm of prayer, women are placed behind men not as a sign of inferiority, but as a regulation of discipline in prayers. This is a result of the exemption of women from some prayers that are obligatory to men.
 * The dress of Islamic women is not a sign of oppression or obedience, either. It is a symbol of the virtues that the “veil” portrays: honor, dignity, chastity, purity, and integrity.  It is also a sign of devotion to a woman’s marital promise of loyalty and respect (Shahid). (03:22, 22 March 2006 165.190.89.153)


 * Modest dress and behaviour should stem from faith, but it usually stems from society and family demands. How can a woman's relationship be between equals in all those things if he can at any time without telling her take another wife?  She may choose to, but what if her husband refuses to let her?  It is odd that Abdul Ati has to say so - who do you think he is trying to persuade?  Odd that you should interpret enforced infantisation as an advantage.  What prayer and dress means to Muslim women in debateable.  It is not up to you to lay down what it means to Muslim women.  Lao Wai 11:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Evidence from Islam
 * There is strong evidence in the basis of the Muslim culture: the writings of the Qur’an. Many verses can be found speaking of the equality of men and women (Elias).  They illustrate guidelines to human rights and reproaches to those who do not respect the equality of the sexes.  Some of these direct examples can be found in the follow entries in the Qur’an: 16:57-59; 62; 42:47-59; 43:15-19; 53:21-23 (Abdul-Ati).
 * It has also been debated that the Qur’an holds women to a higher accord than any other religious writings (Elias). (03:22, 22 March 2006 165.190.89.153)


 * It is a big book, it says many things. Muslim men have been able to pick and choose.  What have they picked and chosen? Lao Wai 11:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Media Perceptions, Misinterpretations, and Prejudices
 * The media have a tendency to illustrate a distorted portrayal of Islamic beliefs, culture, and society. Muslim are often stereotyped as submissive Western conformists, violent radicals, and most often, as oppressive figures to women, which this fails to be a portrayal of the essence of Islamic culture.
 * But as we realize that such prejudice exists in the media, we must pinpoint it’s origins in order to eradicate it. Through some analysis, we can come to two basic conclusions.  Negative portrayals of Muslims must stem from either ignorance, or a desire of the media to purposely misrepresent Islam as it is viewed as a challenge to the West.
 * However, such misrepresentation will soon prove detrimental to our society as Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world (Patel). (03:22, 22 March 2006 165.190.89.153)


 * There is no point blaming all this on the media. They may be biased but they are reporting something.  There is no vast conspiracy about Islam and it is perfectly possible to know something about Islam and still be appalled.  The more I learn the worse I get.  Islam is not the fastest growing religion in the world.  Wicca is. Lao Wai 11:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Works Cited:

Abdul-Ati, Hammuda, Ph.D. "The Status of Women in Islam." Islam in Focus. . 21 March 2006.

Elias, Jamal J. Religions of the World: Islam. Ed. Ninian Smart. New Jersey: Prentice Hall Inc., 1999.

Muslim Women's League. "The Verse of Abuse or the Abused Verse." Extracted from Dimensions of the Qur'an by Sa'dullah Khan. 21 February 2006. . 21 March 2006.

Patel, Sairra. "The Media and its Representation of Islam and Muslim Women." . 21 March 2006.

RAWA (Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan). "Let's rise united and resolute for liberation and against the fundamentalism." RAWA, 1997-2006. . 21 March 2006.

Shahid, Aisha Atiq. "The Muslim Lady: Her Role and Her Honor." . 21 March 2006.

USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts. "To Separate Fact From Fiction...". Published by Islamic Center of Southern California. . 21 March 2006. (03:22, 22 March 2006 165.190.89.153)


 * Did you read RAWA's site? Lao Wai 11:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

In addition to all of this presented research, I semi-recently attended a seminar about Women in Islam. It was presented by Muslim women from their perceptions, and thus my bias (that I try to hide) often shows that women, in classical Islamic tradition, are not oppressed as they may be in the more aggressive and oppressive minority of Muslim sects of the religion. I am unfortunately incapable of citing any information that I gained from that seminar, though.


 * So in addition to this you went to a meeting of Evangelists. Hmmm.  The Classical tradition includes gems like Ghazali who compared marriage to slavery.  What makes you think that the Classical tradition is not, in fact, the same as the aggressive and oppressive majority of modern traditional Muslims?  The fact is the modern radicals often treat women better.  Look at Iran and Hezbollah.  The Taleban were, after all, Islamic students. Lao Wai 10:57, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

merge
maybe add some info from Women in the Qur'an in here.

I just noticed that Women in the Qur'an had a merger notice and this article didn't, so I added it. I think someone with more experiance should merge them, I've never attempted a big merger before. Vint 16:18, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with a merger. Women in the Qur'an, is about the stories of different women as well as thier theoretical treatment. This article is about what actually happens to women.Bless sins 21:59, 14 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Vint 03:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I was wondering whether it would make sense to merge this article with Women in Islam. The two articles in a way are different but end up basically stating the same. They might both benefit from merging information. --Arabist 22:32, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * We have had this discussion before. The problem is that if both articles are merged together than we will also have to include honor killings etc. which have no root in Islam whatsoever. Hence, we decided to keep this article separate. But if you have some good suggestions. Do let us know! Cheers.  TruthSpreader reply 00:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Recent move
Ed Poor changed the title of the article without consulting anyone -- he moved it from Women in Islam to Women in Muslim society. I don't think that the latter is a good title. Too bad we left it at the top of the page, but on really looking at it, it implies that there is an entity called "Muslim society", which I don't think can be demonstrated. There are diasporic Muslim communities in various places; there are Muslim-majority countries; there are many Muslims who believe that all Muslims are part of one world-wide community, the ummah. But what the heck is a Muslim society? Is it a society where everyone is a Muslim? In that case, most Muslim-majority countries and all diasporic Muslims aren't included. Major moves like this should only be done after consultation and thought. Ed, please report! Zora 03:40, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that Ed should have consulted everyone. BUt I think he made the right desicion. Sections like Domestic Violence and Honor Killings are un-Islamic ideas that exist Muslim societies. Finally we don't have to worry about Islam condoning actions, rather whether they happen anyways or not. And BTW, "Muslim society" refers to popular treatment of women at the hands of Muslims.Bless sins 20:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC) Bless sins 20:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I suppose I should move the discussion from my talk page here. But I think I'll leave well enough alone.


 * Perhaps our next task should be to distinguish betwen "Islamic" customs (i.e. based on the Koran or Muslim religious tradition) and "Arab" or other tribal customs.
 * there is considerable dispute over whether honor killing and female genital mutilation are "Islamic" or "Muslim" ideas.
 * yet it is in Islamic / Muslim societies that these practices seem to flourish the most.
 * I would like to see Wikipedia articles which explain the source, as well as the current justification or condemnation, of these practices. --Uncle Ed 19:52, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that the Qur'an and the hadith are endlessly interpretable. Fiqh is less so, but there is still room for manoeuvre. Muslims have drawn very different conclusions as to ideal female behavior and allowable sanctions for misbehavior. So we have a process of negotiation and interpretation. There are also some customs, like female genital mutilation and honor killing, that have no Quranic justification, but, as you say, seem to be prevalent in Muslim-majority countries and Muslim diasporic communities. Furthermore, you have clergy, ulema, who share the beliefs of the society around them and preach them from the pulpit.

Isn't this the case in any religion? When I was in Tonga, a fervently Methodist country, I adopted a crippled cat and had her spayed. I was taking the spayed cat home on a jitney bus and another rider, an elderly Tongan man, asked me about the cat. I explained. He was shocked. "God will be angry!" In his version of Christianity, any birth control, animal or human, was sacrilegious. A carryover from older, pre-Christian ideas about the importance of fertility. But then, don't Christians in developed countries argue fiercely about human birth control?

I still like the older title, which was easy for readers to find. It's part of a series of articles on "Islam and ..." I don't think the title implies that it's only about religious doctrine -- it can concern the interpretation and application of doctrine, or the accomodation of doctrine to local beliefs.

But if the title MUST be changed, I'd prefer Women in Muslim communities, as the term "society" implies (to me, former anthropology graduate student) a wider, more inclusive phenomenon. Zora 22:13, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I have no objection to the move. Please go ahead. --Uncle Ed 14:09, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * In light of Zoras' comments, I thought that Women in Muslim societies is more apt. Feel free to revert or to change again. --Irishpunktom\talk 16:06, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Women in religion
I believe that there should be a main page (women in religion) in witch there is an overview of at least the main religions and the rights, and obligations of the woman according to these religions. From here a link may depart to "women in muslim societies" for the muslim religion.

In the Bible there are many (woman-unfriendly) passages about women, yet these are not yet discribed in wikipedia. (an example is exodus: in here it is stated that the woman is created out of the rib of a man.) It would be sad if this is not mentioned in wikipedia and if all attention is set on the muslim religion's role of the female.
 * STRONGLY Disagree Yes I think that page could be further developed and expanded.  I support summarizing this to about 1-2 paragraphs and posting this there.  But leave this page HERE!  The article is very long (about 12 pages) and should not be merged into anything else. --michael180 00:36, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree there should be a central women in religion page with links - I'm already working on it! Since there's no disagreement, I'm moving the proposal. --Ephilei 01:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Islamist
Why is Iran the longest islamist state? Self referencing here, I know, but according to "Islamism", "Islamist ideologies hold that Islam is not only a religion, but also a political system that governs the legal, economic and social imperatives of the state according to its interpretation of Islamic Law." - why does this not then apply to, say Saudi Arabia which predates the Islamic Republic of Iran.--Irishpunktom\talk 23:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Motherhood
I wish this article would also talk more about Islam's view on Mothers and Motherhood and compare that to Islam's view of Fatherhood. This is one of the areas of Islam where women thought to be favoured over men ie

"A man asked the Prophet: 'Whom should I honor most?' The Prophet replied: 'Your mother'. 'And who comes next?' asked the man. The Prophet replied: 'Your mother'. 'And who comes next?' asked the man. The Prophet replied: 'Your mother!'. 'And who comes next?' asked the man. The Prophet replied: 'Your father'" (Bukhari and Muslim).

And We have enjoined on the human being in (regard to) his two parents - his mother bore him in weakness upon weakness, and his weaning was two years - Give thanks to Me and to your parents. To Me is the goal. But if they strive with you to associate with Me (gods) you do not know about, then do not obey them. But keep company with them both in the world in an honorable manner, and follow the path of who repents to Me. Then I will tell you what you have worked. - Surah Luqman ayat 14-15

Al-Tirmidhi Hadith 4939 Narrated by Mu'awiyah ibn Jahimah: Jahimah came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said, "Messenger of Allah, I desire to go on a military expedition and I have come to consult you. He asked him if he had a mother, and when he replied that he had, he said, "Stay with her, for Paradise is at her feet."  Ahmad, Nasa'i and Bayhaqi, in Shu'ab al-Iman, transmitted it.

Al-Tirmidhi Hadith 4935 Narrated by Abdullah ibn Umar: A man came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said, "Messenger of Allah, I have committed a serious sin. Can I do any act of penitence?" He asked him if he had a mother, and when he replied that he had not, he asked if he had a maternal aunt. On his replying that he had, he said, "Then do kindness to her." Transmitted by Tirmidhi.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.69.141.31 (talk) 20:26, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Why was the link removed?
Apparently the person who removed the link to the Frontpage symposium wants only links that will portray Islam in a good light. I think that is a bit unfair not letting express opposing views, especially when in the Frontpage symposium they let the other side express their view. Politicallyincorrectliberal 00:41, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Frontpage is known for its right-wing bias. Reliable_sources. BhaiSaab talk 19:53, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Older Women's Muslim Community
This article: OWMC was prod'd, deleted, restored and is now up for deletion at Articles for deletion/OWMC. Can anyone here throw any light on its authenticity? -- I@n 04:58, 31 August 2006 (UTC)