Talk:Woody Allen/Archive 3

WP:WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers priority assessment
Per debate and discussion re: assessment of the approximate 100 top priority articles, this article has been included as a top priority article. Wildhartlivie (talk) 09:56, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Categories: Films directed by Woody Allen
Since Woody Allen is a person and not a film, I think this article should not belong to the "Films" category. Agreed? Thanks Kvsh5 (talk) 06:38, 26 September 2009 (UTC) Agreed.Abie the Fish Peddler (talk) 08:46, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Allen signed petition defending Roman Polanski
I propose that the following sentence be added to the artcle:

In 2009, Allen signed a petition asking that film director Roman Polanski be released from Swiss custody after Polanski was arrested for raping a 13-year-old girl.

Grundle2600 (talk) 13:08, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I dont' agree with this:
 * a) Woody Allen was only one of the signatories, he was not the leading personality behind the petition.
 * b) Fact that he signed a petition is of minimal importance relating to his biography - while the other initiatives he took part in are not mentioned in the article.
 * c) The proposed formulation is misleading, as Polanski was detained because of warrant relating to charge over 30 years old, not to any recent charge - and formulation used collides with Wikipedia policy on facts unrelated to the subject of the article, and at the same time violates neutral point of view required by rules for articles on biography of living persons.--ja_62 (talk) 17:15, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Clear BLP violation, selective presentation of facts in order to increase disparaging impact of claim. More generally, content like this should be incorporated into 2009 arrest of Roman Polanski rather than scattered throughout Wikipedia.  This is nowhere near significant enough in the context of Allen's life to mention in his biography. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 17:59, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree. It's factually inaccurate, to start. Polanski was not arrested in Switzerland for child rape, he was arrested on a 30 year old fugitive warrant, not child rape, the petition is not about the crime, but is about the manner and the legality of Polanski's recent arrest. That's a completely different thing, about the process. It is undue weight in regard to that, and it is not relevant to what makes this article subject notable. It's a violation of WP:BLP. Wildhartlivie (talk) 00:35, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Ancient Greece?
"More recently, Ancient Greece has become a source for ideas." No link, no source, no further details? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shamharush (talk • contribs) 17:06, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

The "woody allen-character" section
I move to delete this section, as it is entirely speculation. Woody Allen has refuted this many times. Reduced to its essence, the section only serves to make two false claims: 1) All the characters in all the Woody Allen films that have ever displayed neuroses are not really several different characters but the same character that he's been working on since the 60's. 2) He chooses other actors to play that one character, since he is now too old to play him. --Abie the Fish Peddler (talk) 23:04, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. In essence, that is nothing more than original research/writer opinion. There is nothing establishing that the roles Allen played were a character created by him, much less that he stopped portraying characters in his films because he was too old. The only film in which it could be confirmed that the age factor changed the film plot focus was in Scoop, in which the "crush" was changed from Allen having an interest in Scarlett Johannson to the converse. This isn't appropriate in this article. LaVidaLoca (talk) 14:18, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Lawsuit with American Apparel
In regards to his lawsuit, is there an article that has information about it? If not, should there be a section about it in this article? I found out about it from seeing the American Apparel press release about the settlement: http://www.americanapparel.net/presscenter/dailyupdate/dailyUp.asp?d=52&t=1724 WhisperToMe (talk) 05:56, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. It seemed like a big deal to me, while it was happening, but in the grand scheme of things Woody, I don't think it bears much relevance. I think it bears more relevance regarding things American Apparel. If you still think it should be mentioned, I recommend inserting it into the "Work about or inspired by Woody Allen" section.--Abie the Fish Peddler (talk) 06:59, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Woody's umlaut
LOL- Nice catch, Sara's Song. On both counts.--Abie the Fish Peddler (talk) 04:53, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Sara&#39;s Song (talk) 06:44, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Links
Uh, I don't normally contribute to Wikipedia, so I'm not really sure what to do with these, but I thought someone who's more of a regular here might want to make use of these links.

http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/woody

And

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/archives/2009/06/interview_woody.php?page=1

Supposedly the first link is about Whatever Works, but it really isn't. It's more about Woody Allen's worldview. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.149.119.250 (talk) 08:03, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Agnositicism/atheism
God and the meaning of life is an important part of Allen's work, and he is himself an agnostic/atheist who has made comments about the meaninglessness of life (e.g. "Your perception of time changes as you get older, because you see how brief everything is. You see how meaningless … I don't want to depress you, but it's a meaningless little flicker"; "... I'm spiritually empty 'cause I am an atheist and I've never found any consolation for the misery of life and the terror of what we go through, and I'm talking existentially now, not politically."), but there's nothing in the article about this aspect of his work and life. I'm not sure how to best incorporate it though. Fences &amp;  Windows  13:32, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Copyright problem
This article has been reverted by a bot to as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) This has been done to remove User:Accotink2's contributions as they have a history of extensive copyright violation and so it is assumed that all of their major contributions are copyright violations. Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. VWBot (talk) 14:25, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

The chart about recurring collaborators
How do editors feel about this. I think it's tacky, takes up too much room and is not needed. If editors feel it's important to the article than fine but wouldn't putting it in prose be better than this? Opinions please, thanks, -- Crohnie Gal Talk  14:49, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with you - the table/chart looks messy, is confusing and adds very little value. Not needed. - Josette (talk) 23:53, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The big black X draws the eye to an aspect of the article that is not the number one priority, and in doing so, it overshadows more relevant content. The template is used in a small number of articles and, although I appreciate that it is used in good faith, I don't think it adds value.  I agree with you and Josette.  It looks like the exam paper for the worst student in the class, and I think it deserves an "F".    Rossrs (talk) 07:16, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Support: "it's tacky, takes up too much room and is not needed". Cheers, Jack Merridew 18:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I believe this section has morphed into "Actors and actresses in Woody Allen's movies". It's now a long and pointless list, with dozens of names. By comparison, Alfred Hitchcock includes only ten people, and those specifically because they are frequently cast. Unless someone can defend its inclusion in this article I'll move it to Woody Allen filmography.   Will Beback    talk    12:14, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

List of actors/actresses in Allen films
I think this section is useless. The actors and actresses aren't in any order (as far as I can see), and the list isn't even complete. To fix these problems would require a substantial amount of time. Furthermore, is this section even interesting? Perhaps if presented differently (like a category format) it would make more sense, but right now, I would support the deletion of this section. Wolfehhgg (talk) 16:48, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Support deletion m.cellophane (talk)m.cellophane —Preceding undated comment added 04:06, 16 February 2011 (UTC).

"Significant Works About Woody Allen" Section
This information contained in the section doesn't seem to warrant its own section. It would probably make more sense if the info here could be integrated into other sections. Any other suggestions?Jpcohen (talk) 20:23, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Interiors
Please reference the film. It has no jokes or humor. "Gloomy" is not "speculation". The previous movies he directed were comedies. "sharp departure" is accurate as well. No speculation involved. Making wikipedia more objective is a good thing. However, none of these statements are controversial and there is no question about objectivity. --Javaweb (talk) 17:28, 21 July 2011 (UTC)Javaweb


 * No disrespect but labeling the movie "gloomy" is a negative judgement. If you want to add a negative assessment of Interiors, I would recommend finding outside sources. For instance, if an Allen biographer calls the movie "gloomy," then that doesn't break the rules regarding WP:OPINION.Jpcohen (talk) 08:18, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Perhaps calling the movie "dark" would seem less judgemental.Jpcohen (talk) 08:20, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * No problem. It helps to have other editors review changes. --Javaweb (talk) 14:28, 22 July 2011 (UTC)Javaweb

His name
If he legally changed his name to Heywood Allen then why is the caption allen stewart konisberg? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.33.237.54 (talk) 00:50, 8 December 2009 (UTC) Did he choose that name (as opposed to Woodrow) partly because of Heywood Broun? I've never read anything to that effect, but given the rarity of the name and who Broun was, it seems like too much of a coincidence. Richard K. Carson (talk) 01:28, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Because the caption is of his birth name. WhisperToMe (talk) 05:56, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't his legal name appear in the first sentence of the article? E.g. Heywood "Woody" Allen (born Allen Stewart Konigsberg, December 1, 1935) is an American filmmaker...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.84.234.217 (talk) 23:31, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

potential resource American Masters
Woody Allen: A Documentary premiered November 20 2011 from 9-11 p.m. (ET/PT) and Monday, November 21 from 9-10:30 p.m. (ET/PT) on PBS 99.56.120.136 (talk) 02:20, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Did Allen get good performances from his actors
the removed text is not trivial. It helps answer that question. --Javaweb (talk) 22:05, 11 September 2011 (UTC)Javaweb


 * It doesn't mention how he got good performances from his actors it just says that some actors and actresses in his movies won awards. It didn't tie into Allen at all, it wasn't him personally winning those awards and it just seemed odd to mention others in a section devoted to the awards that he himself won-- GroovySandwichYum. 04:22, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The recent American Masters Doc from PBS mentions this exact thing and I think it's encyclopedic and interesting information about Woody himself to learn how many of the actors and actresses in his films have won awards, especially academy awards, and I've come to this page to find that exact information. I think it should be mentioned. Dancindazed (talk) 20:18, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Expelled from NYU?
It's been reported on several websites that he was expelled from NYU, although the reason isn't quite clear. BrotherSulayman (talk) 05:49, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Mr. Allen has said he was "thrown out". See this Fresh Air transcript and search text for "flunked". --Javaweb (talk) 11:46, 18 April 2011 (UTC)Javaweb
 * He says he was uninterested in school at the time so he failed his courses. --Javaweb (talk) 23:02, 27 January 2012 (UTC)Javaweb
 * He says he was uninterested in school at the time so he failed his courses. --Javaweb (talk) 23:02, 27 January 2012 (UTC)Javaweb

"O.P.S. prices"
Buried in the Talk archives is the explanation that "O.P.S. prices" refers to the Office of Price Stabilization, an agency of the Economic Stabilization Agency, which exist4ed only during the Korean War. I think if the joke is worth including at all, "O.P.S." needs to be explained in the article, not just on the Talk page. While explaining a joke means it will not be funny, it would at least be understandable. If the joke cannot be explained without a lot of tangential exposition, I suggest deleting it as unencyclopedic trivia. jnestorius(talk) 17:58, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

help with the name of this "film"
Some one knows the name of this film by Woody Allen, in which he play a joker that wants to have sex with a queen... I don't really know if he directed it or if he wrote it
 * Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex* (*But Were Afraid to Ask) --Javaweb (talk) 01:42, 3 September 2012 (UTC)Javaweb

He' the one
He is so good. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.254.147.68 (talk) 08:35, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Need a section for the TV show, 'Kraft Music Hall: Woody Allen looks at 1967'
On December 27th, 1967, Woody Allen hosted a televised variety show titled “Kraft Music Hall: Woody Allen looks at 1967". The "Kraft Music Hall", which ran from 1967 to 1971, featured a different host on each weekly show. Woody Allen's clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNErWi_lTig Shouldn't mention of this be in the main article? Theaternearyou (talk) 04:44, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Carla Bruni, French First Lady
There was a to show Carla Bruni is now the former French first lady. At the time of "Midnight in Paris", Carla Bruni was the current First Lady. Can someone think of a way of wording it that would capture that? --Javaweb (talk) 08:18, 8 September 2012 (UTC)Javaweb I revised the clause of that sentence to, "Carla Bruni, who was the First Lady of France at the time of production." It accurately reflects her status during shooting in a concise way that maintains the flow of the sentence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.151.106.171 (talk) 17:26, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Allen is an author too
Allen is an author too. he has at least three published books. i don't know how to add "author" to the list of his occupations under his photo. 15:45, 16 May 2013 (UTC) Michael Christian — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.229.11.14 (talk)

Oscar night tradition?
I read somewhere that on Oscar night (or perhaps only on Oscar nights in which he is nominated), Allen performs music at a New York club in lieu of attending. This isn't mentioned in the Academy Awards section; I'm sure it's probably referenced in a biography of him. 70.72.201.229 (talk) 15:47, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

"Born" vs né
Re:: "Woody Allen (born Allan Stewart Konigsberg)" in the context of the article is clearer and simpler in English, the language of pages beginning with urls "http://en.wikipedia.org/..." "Woody Allen ([né] Allan Stewart Konigsberg)" is so unclear, the word needed a link to its definition. --Javaweb (talk) 10:45, 2 July 2013 (UTC)Javaweb

Which is it?
In the wives section, there are two conflicting dates for his fist marriage.

54 - 59 and right below that 56 - 62

So which is it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.183.100.176 (talk) 04:16, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Infobox bloat
The infobox is already bloated with irrelevant details about his personal life, including a list of his children and other relatives. Adding his girlfriends to the box overloads it with trivia. As it is, there are already entire subsections devoted to old girlfriends from his school days, when at most that kind of personal romance trivia shouldn't warrant entire sections, IMO. --Light show (talk) 21:23, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Soon Yi links
The Soon Yi Previn bracketed hyperlinks are recursive to this page after a redirect, please remove them as they are pointless.68.5.176.101 (talk) 00:27, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

age of Moses Farrow at time of decision not to see Allen
According to the NYT article sourced in the Mia Farrow section, Moses was 15 at the time (not 14, as was previously written). That is confirmed in this recent Deadspin article as well: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/27/the-woody-allen-allegations-not-so-fast.html --Bobjohnson111980 (talk) 03:38, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * also has an update on Moses:

"Moses Farrow, now 36, .... has been estranged from Mia for several years. During a recent conversation, he spoke of “finally seeing the reality” of Frog Hollow and used the term “brainwashing” without hesitation. He recently reestablished contact with Allen and is currently enjoying a renewed relationship with him and Soon-Yi." --Javaweb (talk) 05:04, 3 February 2014 (UTC)Javaweb

The Open Letter From Dylan Farrow, as fact, was removed
See,

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Woody_Allen&diff=593632702&oldid=593631930

We are all fans of Woody Allen, but we can not hide the bad news in an encyclopedia.

In February, 2014, Dylan published an open letter explaining "how Woody Allen abused me". []

A fact is not a question of NPOV. The Dylan's letter is a fact, the reader need the facts (to  interpret  with its proper point of view). The facts must stay at the article. --Krauss (talk) 22:38, 2 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Whether to add a mention of the letter is covered by NPOV and WP:BLP. I'm not saying it shouldn't be mentioned at all, but it should be done with brevity, and neutrally. These are old, defamatory and unproven allegations. Coretheapple (talk) 23:23, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

I suggest we add a brief mention of this open letter and Allen's reply. PatGallacher (talk) 01:02, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

It is a fact that Dylan made the accusation, and that is notable enough that it should be mentioned in the article.--Bellerophon5685 (talk) 07:19, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Intro improvement
Currently the first line of this article claims: "Woody Allen (born Allen Stewart Konigsberg; December 1, 1935) is an American screenwriter, director, actor, comedian, author, playwright, and musician whose career spans more than 50 years." It should also include the acknowledgement that he is a "unconvicted pedophile".

This is because WP:TRUTH states 'to define the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia as "verifiability, not truth".' For his own former step daughter to make such vile comments about him means that this article should note them as he is currently an unconvicted pedophile.7 Because assuming WP:Good Faith, there is no reason for her to be lying as she exposes herslef to the world as a victim of sexual abuse. That is sufficient for this Wikipedia's rules. Despite the gravity of the accuastions, the fact is Allen is now an "unconvicted pedohpile" to the same degree - articles about actors - through accusation are accused of being difficult to work with. That has not been tested in a court of law, but articles on this site still claim as much.81.129.202.205 (talk) 11:47, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * But the accusation has not been verified. As required by state law, the State of Connecticut looked into Mia Farrow's accusation. In 1993, the head doctor of the police-appointed medical team gave sworn testimony that Dylan "either invented the story under the stress of living in a volatile and unhealthy home or that it was planted in her mind by her mother" because of the inconsistent presentation of the story by Dylan. Doctors did not find any physical evidence of abuse. Even Nicolas Kristof, the columnist and friend of Mia Farrow who published the accusation, says he "should be presumed innocent". There are also other sources that dispute the accusation. --Javaweb (talk) 17:08, 2 February 2014 (UTC)Javaweb
 * (responding to IP) The entire population of the United States, with a few exceptions, consists of "unconvicted pedophiles," in that very few of us have been convicted of that crime. Let's get real about this. The allegations are already in the article. They are not new. However, I agree that a sentence or two, no more, and certainly no separate section, will suffice at present. Coretheapple (talk) 21:49, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I mention this upthread, but I don't think inserting this new sentence about the allegations in an irrelevant section (Mia Farrow) makes sense, or that it's the right solution to our nervousness about mentioning allegations. The allegations were relevant to Mia Farrow when she was the one making them, and when she was indicating they were related to her relationship with Woody Allen. Now one of his daughters is making allegations that aren't related to her parents' marriage at all, so I think it needs a new section or subsection - not to make it more prominent, but simply to shelve the information logically - as this really isn't about Mia Farrow at all. 69.196.130.198 (talk) 22:06, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Regardless of reason it does not warrant a separate section. Period. Coretheapple (talk) 23:20, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Well... maybe not a separate section but perhaps a subsection under the "Farrow" header. I'll explain my thoughts in a separate section. Coretheapple (talk) 08:22, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

One possible approach
I tend to agree that our current posture of not having anything on the reassertion of the Dylan allegations, old as they are, is untenable. But the BLP and NPOV concerns are well-warranted and in fact are what brought me to this issue, seeing it discussed on a noticeboard. Allen just issued a strong denial. My suggestion is that we carve them out of the Farrow subsection and insert them at the end of the "personal life" section as a subsection entitled "Dylan Farrow controversy." I'll WP:BOLDly do that and if anyone finds it objectionable it can be reverted and we can hash it out. Coretheapple (talk) 08:25, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

OK, I added. I think it is pretty minimal and proportional. Also I added the word "children" to the overall header, to make it read "Marriages, children and romantic relationships." That is more accurate, as the section deals with his relationship with his kids and step-kids. It also is consistent with having the discussion of the Dylan allegations in this section. Coretheapple (talk) 08:44, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

WP:BLPSOURCES
Just as a reminder, we cannot use a tabloid with a poor record for fact-checking to source anything remotely controversial on a BLP. See WP:BLPSOURCES. --John (talk) 16:24, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Formatting issue with edit request
For some reason, any text below the "semi-protected edit request" in the section that follows is not visible. This seems to be a formatting issue. Can someone fix this please? I'm at a loss to figure out how it's done. Coretheapple (talk) 20:06, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It was missing a tag at the end. --John (talk) 20:21, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Aha! I missed it. Thanks. Coretheapple (talk) 21:32, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 February 2014
I propose that the current sentence "Farrow won custody of their children" be developed to include more facts. As it stands, most people will assume Farrow sued Allen for custody. All these fact are taken from the same article sited in the original Wikipedia entry.

Proposed change (with facts from same article cited in current Wikipedia entry): — Preceding unsigned comment added by JulietWaters (talk • contribs) 17:05, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

In August of 1992, a week after Farrow accused him of molesting Malone, Allen sued for full custody of his three children. His lawyers maintained Farrow concocted the charges out of anger over his affair with Soon-Yi. Justice Elliott Wilk of State Supreme Court denied Allen's request, and further denied him visitation rights with Malone, permitting only supervised visitation with Ronan.


 * I don't think that would be appropriate at this page; maybe at Farrow's? Maybe not even there; we are not a tabloid newspaper after all. --John (talk) 20:20, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Fine. Can it be changed to in August of 1992 Allen sued for full custody of his three children.

Also, if we're not a tabloid then we should not be using The Daily Beast as the only source for the recently added statements about Moses Farrow. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JulietWaters (talk • contribs) 22:39, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Re: Ronan Seamus Farrow
I'm not so sure that we really need Woody's son's assessment in this article. I'm curious what other editors think.--Abie the Fish Peddler (talk) 08:19, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I removed it because it had no reliable source. Was there one and I missed it?

--Javaweb (talk) 00:52, 6 April 2011 (UTC)Javaweb Why is his name different on his wikipedia post? Satchel Ronan O'Sullivan Farrow

And why is his adopted daughter, Dylan, who says molested her not even listed as his daughter when his two other adopted daughter are. Seems like you all are trying to whitewash his pedophilia tendencies. You list his girlfriend Stacey Nelkin was 17 and in high school!! Soon Yi too! No one sees a pattern here! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.135.125.242 (talk) 22:48, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Being gentle with survivors on this talk page
Just a very humble request that we remain aware that sexual assault survivors are reading this talk page, and that bringing up whether Dylan Farrow is vindictive, whether it's all false memory, and so on can make it harder for them to participate as editors and to feel okay as human beings. The majority of survivors have had their vulnerable experiences picked at by others' skepticism and doubts and disbelief, and it can be kind of excruciating...I'm not saying this should affect the outcome of the Woody Allen page or the subsection debate, just that on this talk page, maybe we could try to make our cases based on policy instead of speculation, and be extra cautious and compassionate with our fellow editors who are still trying to contribute and serve the Wikipedia community while being survivors themselves. Not trying to raise anyone's defenses here and really appreciate how thoughtful many of the people on this page have been, just noting that this is also an opportunity to make women and sexual assault survivors feel okay in the WP community. 199.119.232.238 (talk) 06:33, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Any comment blaming Dylan probably violates BLP and should be deleted from the talk page. Just to clarify a fact in case it might be mentioned in the article, no one is blaming Dylan Farrow. Not her brother, Moses, who | says she was "brainwashed", nor anyone representing Mr Allen.  --Javaweb (talk) 15:41, 4 February 2014 (UTC)Javaweb

OK, we need compromise here

 * Child abuse is horrible
 * False accusations are horrible
 * Ignoring this allegation completely is horrible
 * Flat out stating it as fact is also horrible

So shouldn't we at least mention it, but also mention that Allen is calling it a vindictive attack, like on Mia Farrow's page? Crisis. E X  E   23:55, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * That's more or less what we do at present. --John (talk) 07:10, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It's in the wrong place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.73.0.208 (talk) 22:42, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Sexual Abuse Allegations
I believe that the sexual abuse allegations warrant a section. This was removed and I added it back - but an editor is trying to whitewash the page. The reason these warrant a section is that:
 * The allegations continue to be a source of widespread discussion among critics and fans of Allen's work
 * Allen's daughter, Dylan, not only complained of abuse when she was young but, now, as an adult, says that Allen did indeed molest her
 * Allen's family has cut off ties with him and his biological son maintains that Allen is a child molester

I don't see how these facts do not warrant inclusion in an even handed discussion of anyone's personal life. To remove mention of any of these things violates NPOV.

Clubintheclub (talk) 19:55, 14 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Agreed  I checked the New York Times reference and it says what you said, no OR or SYNTH.  I can't check the vanity fair reference from work, so I can't vouch for that one, but the New York Times reference is fine.  New York Times is a reliable source.  KoshVorlon . We are all Kosh   18:04, 15 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Great Do you mind adding a section when you have a chance? I am trying mediation/administrative warning w.r.t. the dispute with the editor who is whitewashing this page.  I do not want to modify anything here myself.  Clubintheclub (talk) 18:12, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

[redacted proposal per BLP]

Clubintheclub (talk) 18:24, 15 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree. Allegations of sexual abuse by a family member are important in a biography. I also believe this warrants its own section - it is separate from Allen's relationship with Mia Farrow. To combine them together implies that the allegations are spurious and were invented by Mia and/or Dylan Farrow to direct custody proceedings in Mia Farrow's favour. --Uenuku (talk-- 20:42, 3 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment - rather than its own section, why not just include it in the section for his relationship with Mia Farrow? This way its integrated into the article with some context and not given WP:UNDUE attention. Just a suggestion... --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 19:17, 15 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Generally we do not add allegations, just as we do not for people's sexual preferences. Our adversarial legal system allows any allegations to be made at legal proceedings. Clearly in a divorce you have an advantage if make allegations like this against the person you are divorcing, it determines who gets custody. They may be true, may be false, but by reprinting them we are perpetuating trial allegations.  We should stick to self-confessions and trial outcomes for sex truth or falsehood. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 19:36, 15 January 2014 (UTC)


 * The matter at issue is already treated, more evenhandedly and more appropriately, at Woody_Allen, in the Mia Farrow section. Since Clubintheclub repeats some of the language there verbatim, they are clearly aware of that, and their claim I was "trying to whitewash the page" should be treated quite skeptically in light of that. There is no need for a second, more graphic and more inflammatory, treatment of the matter. My own preference aligns with Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )'s analysis, above, but I am quite reluctant to disturb the long-standing consensus on this point -- and certainly would not do so without prior discussion and consensus. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 19:50, 15 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I think the issue that I feel is not addressed is that the daughter herself, not the mother, claims that she was molested. Clubintheclub (talk) 21:22, 15 January 2014 (UTC)


 * The allegations may be true, or may be false. We do know that false memories can be implanted through repetition. The McMartin preschool trial children, now adults, still believe they were taken through secret tunnels and molested, because they were told over and over that they were. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 21:50, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Isn't the fact that we have a first hand admission (by the victim) of the abuse enough to mention it? Its not "our" accusation, its the accusation of the admitted victim. If she later recants, then that can be added to the article or the accusation stricken altogether. If its added to the "Mia Farrow" relationship section, its in proper context with the article not in its own section which brings Undue attention to the claim. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 23:52, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Roseanne Barr underwent repressed memory therapy and was convinced that her parents raped her as a child. Implanting false memories is very easy, read anything by Elizabeth Loftus. It is amazingly easy with children and surprisingly easy with adults, when the memories are about their distant childhoods. See Lost in the mall technique --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 23:43, 7 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Likewise, I don't think allegations warrant a section, despite the well-publicized chirps. That would place it as a TOC item in an encyclopedia, tabloid style. The article already looks a bit obsessive giving everyone he ever dated or winked at their own section, or listed in the info box. --Light show (talk) 23:58, 15 January 2014 (UTC)


 * At the Oak Hill satanic ritual abuse trial, Dan Keller just was released and apologized to. He spent over 20 years in prison based on false sexual abuse testimony by children. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 03:47, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Ms. Farrow was dumped for her adopted, adult daughter. Farrow had a strong motive to hurt Allen and that daughter. Farrow then claimed Soon-Yi was "retarded"(her word). Now we are supposed to believe Allen chose a brain-addled wife to live with for 20+ years and raise their 2 kids. She also had an accusation against Allen. She made an accusation against Allen in court and was not able to prove it and a team of experts concluded the accusation was false. Also,how likely is it that Allen would have been allowed to adopt his 2 kids if they believed the claims? Unless the allegations are proved, they are BLP --Javaweb (talk) 14:40, 17 January 2014 (UTC)Javaweb


 * Farrow also claimed that Soon-Yi was a victim of statutory rape to discredit Allen. She floated the concept that she was as young as 15 during her relationship with Allen, saying her adoption papers were incorrect in estimating her age. She also argued that diminished capacity ("borderline retarded" was the phrase) prevented Soon-Yi from giving consent for sex which would also be statutory rape. If you are going to court for child support and for custody, you go to win, and you use all the legal weapons available. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 17:18, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Currently Dylan Farrow's renewed allegations against Woody Allen are on the online front pages of several newspapers and all over social media. It seems that there are a lot of people who are sceptical about the allegations, but that is no reason not to include them - they are clearly an important facet of his current reputation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.127.16.34 (talk) 10:50, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

I am really wondering that there is no single statement (!?) about the actual allegetions in the English Wikipedia so far. Due to the upcoming discussion in Germany the German Wikipeadia stated today: "In 2013, the abuse allegations against Woody Allen were raised again, when the daughter Dylan Farrow stated in an interview with the magazine Vanity Fair and later on, in an open letter on the website of the New York Times in early 2014, that she has been sexually abused by him at the age of 7 years, see also Ibohnet (talk) 16:57, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Adopted daughter accuses - abuse allegations against Woody Allen, Neue Zürcher Zeitung on 14 October 2013
 * Sexual Violence: adopted daughter throws Woody Allen abuse before, Der Spiegel on 2 February 2014
 * Adopted daughter throws film director abuse before, Die Zeit on 2 February 2014
 * Adopted daughter accuses Woody Allen, Die Welt on 2 February 2014


 * I agree. That Dylan Farrow has gone public in this way is a fact and is beyond dispute.  I don't think anyone could seriously say it's not notable.  Whether the substance of her allegations are true does not alter the fact that she has acted in this very public way against Allen. I believe it will deserve a brief mention... not necessarily now, as Wikipedia is not a newspaper, but certainly in the near future. Marteau (talk)


 * But see http://www.showbiz411.com/2014/02/01/mia-farrow-uses-close-pal-journalist-in-woody-allen-war-writer-of-latest-piece-is-close-friend and http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/27/the-woody-allen-allegations-not-so-fast.html . I don't see any reason to rush to judgment on a contretemps between two people (Mia Farrow and Woody Allen) with track records of creepy behavior. Dylan Farrow is a victim -- but whether of her father's sexual abuse or her mother's psychological abuse hasn't been determined, and the Wikipedia editing community is hardly well-qualified to even frame the discussion. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 17:45, 2 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree, but that does not address my point at all. My point is, that what Dylan has done (accuse Woody Allen) is beyond dispute, is NPOV, and is not original research (in other words, simply saying he has accused is not a BLP violation, it's simply a fact).  WHAT she was accusing Allen of is, of course, under dispute.  THAT she has accused Allen is NOT under dispute.  I simply do not see how saying that Dylan did something which is beyond dispute (i.e. accuse Allen very publicly) is a BLP violation.  It is possible and would probably preferable to say that Dylan lodged accusations (again, this is simply an irrefutable, neutral fact) without going into the details of the allegations.   Marteau (talk) 19:40, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not a new allegation, although the specificity may be greater than previous accounts. The allegation is already mentioned in the context of the custody dispute. If the allegation were included in this manner, NPOV and BLP would require us to add the medical team's determination of its likely falsity, and the allegations of Farrow's supposed campaign in response to Allen's award nominations, and more, ad nauseam. If we're going to follow the "do no harm" foundation for BLP policy, this is a topic that should be handled minimally and quite carefully absent a real resolution or balanced evaluation in reliable secondary sources. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 20:01, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Given that Dylan Farrow's allegations have been widely reported on press and television, I think it would be biased not to give them some mention. We don't need to say that they are true, if there are reliable sources which dispute these allegations they should be included. PatGallacher (talk) 20:01, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * They were widely reported before the NYT piece. The allegations in general been widely reported for years. The allegations in general are already mentioned in the article. Recirculating them - especially via a journalist with close ties to Mia Farrow - doesn't make them more noteworthy. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 20:42, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree we should be very conservative with stuff like this. I don't see any harm in adding one bland sentence to the effect that she has repeated the allegations in 2014. It is easy to source. --John (talk) 20:46, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that for the time being a sentence or two is enough. Coretheapple (talk) 21:46, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree that we should add a sentence. But I think it's a little weird and counter-intuitive to put that sentence under the "Romantic relationships" section. This is now a clearly separate issue from his relationship with Mia Farrow and shouldn't be shoved in there just because it's convenient. Realistically, I think we need a second section under Personal life for "Sexual assault allegations" - or a Controversy section, like the one on Tom Cruise's page - where we simply state that his daughter published allegations in 2014. In any case, there's plenty of precedent on Wikipedia for including information about high-profile allegations or even rumors about the subject if they blow up in the news. (See the section on Kevin Spacey's page just addressing his sexuality.) 69.196.130.198 (talk) 21:57, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I think you have a point about the controversies section. But I'd be opposed to only this issue getting a special section. Coretheapple (talk) 08:16, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * We don't do controversy sections. One sourced sentence, added to what we have, is all I can support. --John (talk) 16:04, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * What do you think of what I've added? I broke it out as a sub-sub-subsection, moved one sentence and added two, one of which is Allen's denial. I don't feel very strongly about this, so if you want to fold it back into the Farrow subsection I wouldn't object. Coretheapple (talk) 16:10, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Not bad. I removed the subsection as I felt it gave too much emphasis, and I adjusted the wording slightly. --John (talk) 16:22, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I think it's OK now. Sub-sub-sub (etc)-section not really necessary at this point. If something actually happens, if there are repercussions beyond bad publicity, we can revisit. Coretheapple (talk) 16:27, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

I read this entire section, and I was almost amused by it. Those who were against inclusion--and, despite all talks of "consensus", the subject and the shocking allegations, made under oath in legal proceedings, and publicly by several victims, are buried in the text--almost to the last one, hang their hat not on the notability of the comments, but on the "motivation" of one of several people who have laid out what to the non-jaundiced eye are quite shocking allegations of long-standing pedophilia (it is not the weasel word 'abuse'). Those who are in favor of upholding wikipedia policy, of course, point out that the veracity of the allegations is totally unimportant, and the real inquiry is the notability of them. But, as always happens with the class of people who have enjoyed long standing protection on these wikipedia pages (see Bernard Goetz, George Zimmerman, for instance), it does not matter how long the discussion or how impassioned, or even logical or reasoned those in favor of inclusion make their point on the talk pages, the article will remain the property of those with a vested interest, and no matter how many gyrations the parties engage in here on the talk pages, that, too, will be buried in "archives--the memory hole, I call it--in due course, so that both the article and official talk page will present the official version of the story as sanctioned by the gatekeepers at wikipedia, and, they hope, the internet. I know I speak for millions of disillusioned, who really thought when these pages first sprung up, that they will be the alternative to the managed "reality" we have everyday with the bought media, but, after a while, we simply have to give credit where it's due. Maybe, we all do love Big Brother, after all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.171.236 (talk) 19:52, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

New article for the allegations
If there is one already, I missed it and arguing endlessly here about what to include seems rather moot. Reference it here and point to another article that goes into detail. This is a serious issue, people want to know what is known about it, Wikipedia is the only source that brings together everything about everything in a way that we can maybe not trust but at least verify. There is no reason not to have another article on Wikipedia, it's not like it's running out of space. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.168.187.66 (talk) 18:58, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * By its very nature, an allegation is non-neutral. Read the earlier discussions about a section devoted to "allegations" which would make Wikipedia a forum for a trial by media. As stated in the guidelines:
 * Articles and content about living people are required to meet an especially high standard, as they may otherwise be libellous or infringe the subjects' right to privacy. Articles should not be written purely to attack the reputation of another person. --Light show (talk) 19:18, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think articles or sections about serious allegations in themselves are non-neutral. If the facts about the allegations are presented neutrally, I can see no problem. These particular allegations are also a matter of public record. Uenuku
 * It's just remarkable that virtually all the people here who think the twenty-year-old allegations by Dylan Farrow against her father command immediate attention, but fall silent about Moses Farrow's recent allegations of physical abuse against his mother. Apparently presenting those on Wikipedia is less "neutral." Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 23:06, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Allegations often lead to counter-allegations. Great for selling tabloids, but not useful here. --Light show (talk) 23:54, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The issue of whether to include anything against Mia Farrow in her article should be considered on its own merits, is not relevant to this discussion. "Other stuff doesn't exist" is an even weaker argument than "other stuff exists", see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. PatGallacher (talk) 02:07, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
 * We're looking at a paragraph's worth of material here, MAYBE two, given the evolving concensus. This is not TMZ, wall-to-wall coverage is not indicated or desirable.. this issue will fit very neatly as a para under the subject article, namely,  "Woody Allen".  Marteau (talk) 01:55, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree that a separate article is not warranted and would be a "POV fork." Coretheapple (talk) 11:04, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Consistency?
Hello. I have a question regarding adding a section for the Dylan Farrow's allegations of sexual abuse. (Please note I have only skimmed the discussion here). One of the arguments against a separate section for the controversy is that these are allegations and not proven. Also, that it is not consistent with Wikipedia's policy to include allegations and controversies as separate sections/headers. I feel it appropriate to point out another celebrity who was accused of child sexual abuse multiple times, Michael Jackson. On his page, under Life and Career there are two separate sections with headers labeled as "...child sexual abuse allegations...". By not including a similar account on Woody Allen's page Wikipedia appears biased, IMO. ---Rebecca 1:59 5 February 2014 (EST)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.47.216.80 (talk)
 * You may have noticed that Micheal Jackson is dead, so we no longer have BLP concerns. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 23:19, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Micheal? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.72.63.150 (talk) 04:04, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
 * WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and for michael jackson it was a major scandal over many years with multiple accusations, alleged victims, trials, settlements etc. His cases got multiple documentaries, books,  comedy routines, etc focused on that particular topic. He became notoriously notable for child abuse allegations. This is a single allegation happening decades ago, where he was never charged, and at least one investigation found the allegations unambiguously unfounded. There are certainly alternate opinions, and the alleged victim has obviously continued to give her POV, but comparing Allen to Jackson is apples to oranges. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:08, 5 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Michael Jackson was never found guilty either. If you are trying to minimise this accusation, Gaijin42, it's worth noting that Michael Jackson was never accused of sexually abusing his own child. Sexual abuse is sexual abuse. It is not less serious because there is one accuser compared to many.

Also, there is no need to call Dylan Farrow an "alleged" victim. "Alleged" should apply to the accused, not the accuser.


 * Actually "alleged victim" is correct and common usage, particularly for colloquial talk page usage. Although in the article I might say something like purported victim or accuser.I am not trying to minimize the incident. Indeed one incident of sexual abuse is very bad. Thats my point. This is one incident. Jackson had multiple. He was charged and tried in multiple. He settled in multiple. There are entire books written about the jackson allegations. Entire movies. It was a major part of his reputation. Maybe someday this incident will or should be too, but currently it is not. Wikipedia is not the platform to make it so. We reflect the sources, not drive the sources. Yes, if true being his own child probably makes a horrible incident "worse" - but again its a single incident, during a messy divorce,  that has had official investigations come back as "not true". The judge at worst said "not sure". This is a major BLP issue, but the controversy and subject are both WP:WELLKNOWN. It should be covered. It is. Making a full section would be WP:UNDUE until the sources reflect that it is a major part of his reputation. (As opposed to the WP:RECENTISM of the current news spike). In his biographies, in documentaries that cover him, this is one element of his relationship with Mia Farrow, and the divorce, and Soon Yi incident. That is quite correctly the way we cover it now. Gaijin42 (talk) 13:18, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Plenty of users disagree with you on this. Why don't you take a poll rather than relying on the status quo as the superior way to address this issue? Also, I don't think you can have a NPOV here when you've listed yourself as a "masculinist".

Ad hominem arguments don't go over well on wikipedia. There IS a poll, about 2 sections up. Very few people have commented. It is up for those who want a change to build a consensus for that change, not the other way around. Consensus in this cae is also constrained by policy. blogs, SPS, completely uncited opinions, are not acceptable on a BLP, particularly not on an issue making accusations like this. Gaijin42 (talk) 13:47, 7 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry you felt personally attacked Gaijin42. It was not my intention.


 * Since the underlying claim is clearly disputed, language which supports one set of claims and is not consistent with the other should be avoided. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 23:59, 5 February 2014 (UTC)


 * That's mangling the English language to suit your own purpose. (Uenuku (talk)


 * The Woody Allen claims are much different, and the latest ones were investigated years ago and were not supported. We have to be careful not to give them excessive emphasis. We have an RfC pending on this very issue, and over the next month it should be able to get a broad assortment of opinions on how to proceed. Coretheapple (talk) 14:08, 7 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Indeed. We can (or could) spare much grief and warring if people would just post indisputed facts and links to indesputed facts only.  We were starting to see links to opinion pages and blogs of "pundits" and such who gave opinion and points-of-view which is in my view inappropriate for this issue.  When this page becomes editable,  I would encourage editors to try leaving their agendas at the door and simply stick to the indisputed facts, including linking only to dispasionate facts and not opinions. Marteau (talk) 14:33, 7 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I think people have been trying to do just that. What has actually been most controversial is the inclusion of quotes from both sides. Most editors and administrators are trying to maintain a neutral point of view, but not everyone's idea of neutrality is the same, and different people have different ideas about how to achieve this. Unfortunately I think resolution here is a little more complicated than asking everyone to only include undisputed information, because everything in this case is disputed by two sides of the same family. (Uenuku (talk)


 * No, actually, everything is NOT disputed by the the "two sides". What is not disputable by anyone is that Dylan Farrow wrote a public letter.  What is not disputed is that Woody Allen publicly said he thinks its lies.  These are true with 100% metaphysical certitude.   ANYTHING that does not adhere to that standard should not be included regarding this issue, including ANY opinions, editorials, analyses, etc or links to such.  Marteau (talk) 23:13, 7 February 2014 (UTC)