Talk:World Genseiryū Karatedō Federation/Archive 1

Further Sources
Genseipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter Lee (talk • contribs) 03:57, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the text and writing about Kunihiko Tosa in this article
I must protest to the inclusion of any text about Kunihiko Tosa in regard to this article as Kunihiko Tosa has absolutely nothing to do with the World Genseiryu Karate-do Federation in any way whatsoever. Further, the text included here is full of errors, speculation and deliberate attempts on confusing facts rather than presenting a trustworthy article and history as it really happened.

For instance:
 * In the article, it is said that the first dojo of Kunihiko Tosa was opened in 1962 as a result of Shukumine leaving Genseiryu. Completely wrong! Kunihiko Tosa started his first dojo in 1959, a total of three years before Seiken Shukumine left Genseiryu. Kunihiko Tosa established Genseiryu together with Seiken Shukumine in 1953 and onwards. These are legitimate claims backed up by contemporary organization members at that time, as well as this has been restated on numerous occasions since then.
 * In the text it also says the following: However, since October 1961 he held only occasionally examinations in Gensei-ryū, only in Japan. This is a deliberate lie, sorry my "French". Shukumine did not hold any examinations in Genseiryu whatsoever, be in Japan or otherwise, since October 1961. The explanation for this is, that Shukumine wanted all students of Genseiryu to follow him in Taido. The people of the WGKF are claiming this only because they have no way whatsoever to advance in the grading system as Kunihiko Tosa has denied them this. Their only way out of this is to lie to their students especially in Europe, about this fact, as a sensei (teacher) who cannot advance in the ranks or receive legitimate training has no future. As they have been denied this by Kunihiko Tosa for more years than I can count, they simply lies about it. Thus the Dutch self proclaimed "master" Nobuaki Konno claimed in the past to have been awarded 6th dan by Kunihiko Tosa. Konno even said it in an interview to a Dutch journalist during a visit by Tosa in Holland. When Tosa found out in 1996, he kicked Konno out. Konno was never ever given even a chance to take an examination in Genseiryu. Thus any claim by him in this regard is a direct lie. In 1997 Konno then claimed that the rank of 6th dan was given to him by the founder of Genseiryu, Seiken Shukumine. This was also a lie, but I guess this was the only way he could keep his status in Holland? Anyway, later when Shukumine died in November 2001, the paople behind the WGKF with Konno in the lead started thoughts about WGKF and in 2003 they finally established the WGKF. The head of the WGKF is Nobuaki Konno, the organization was made on his request. Funny that he has no knowledge of Genseiryu at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter Lee (talk • contribs) 02:50, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * In the article it is also said that: Seiken Shukumine appointed a successor for Gensei-ryū, the first one being Yamada, later followed by Saito and after his death, Yasunori Kanai. This is indeed not true either, as no official successor was ever appointed by Shukumine in the years right after he himself left Genseiryu. Up until his death, it was Shukumine's highest wish, that all of his followers, be it in Genseiryu or Taido should practice only Taido as Taido was what Genseiryu in his view had evolved into. On several occasions since 1962, when Shukumine left Genseiryu, he has stated that the true Genseiryu of today is Kunihiko Tosa. Shukumine wrote a preface in Kunihiko Tosa's book of 1984, and thus proving that there existed a good relationship between them and evidence that Shukumine approved Kunihiko Tosa as Genseiryu. Further, on a meeting with various masters present of the Japan Karate-do Federation, it was heard among many, that Shukumine stated that only Kunihiko Tosa was the legitimate successor of Genseiryu. One of these persons present was from Shito-ryu Seibukan (糸東流真武館). The source of this is pasted here from the Genseipedia, the text was written in Genseipedia (Japanese) by the eldest son of Kunihiko Tosa: 補足：土佐邦彦は師・祝嶺正献より直々に許しを得て、現在まで普及に当る. 当時、名称が日本空手道玄制流武徳会であった時代に、武徳会新年会に祝嶺正献をお招きし、毎年いらしていたのは有名な話である. 　また、その席上、｢玄制流は土佐、お前に任せる｣と発言されたことは、やはり席上にいらした[日本空手道糸東流真武館 Seibukan 祖父江利久氏 が耳にしている. It is Japanese, but it says what I have just written above. Thus, if we should adhere 100% to the sayings of the founder of Genseiryu, then there exist no legitimate Genseiryu other than that of Kunihiko Tosa (meaning: Genseiryu Karate-do International Federation) as this is exactly what Seiken Shukumine said on the New Years gathering of this organisation. All present heard Shukumine say these words: "Genseiryu is Tosa, I leave Genseiryu to you!". The Japanese master of Shito-ryu, Sofue Toshihisa, who is also referred to in the Japanese text above, sat at the exact same table as Shukumine and Tosa, when Shukumine said these words. Thus there can be no doubt as to the legitimacy of the claims made by Kunihiko Tosa, but it leaves a lot of questions to the claims of the so-called World Genseiryu Karatedo Federation.

'''I therefore request help from a sysop on Wikipedia to make sure that the contributors of this article set their facts straight, or permanently exclude any text whatsoever about Kunihiko Tosa and the Genseiryu Butokukai (Genseiryu Karate-do International Federation). Kunihiko Tosa is not relevant for this article anyway. This article is mainly concerned about creating propaganda and setting forth untrue claims in order to slander the true successor of Genseiryu just because the members of the World Genseiryu Karatedo Federation was rejected from membership by Kunihiko Tosa. Bitterness showing that Kunihiko Tosa was right in his denying these people admission to the GKIF. They do this especially in regard to facts concerning Kunihiko Tosa rather than writing a true and trustworthy article. In this regard, if no change can be made to this article in regard to reflecting facts, I would encourage that this article be completely removed from Wikipedia.''' Peter Lee (talk) 02:51, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the Neutral Point of View of the article
Please, write only facts, in a NEUTRAL way, not opions. Write in an encyclopedic way. To prevent a new edit war: People of GKIF are kindly requested to write any contradicting information in the article about GKIF. People from WGKF are requested not to touch that article and people from GKIF are requested not to touch this article about WGKF to prevent another EDIT WAR and keep the whole story as neutral and honest as possible. Also a link to the main article Genseiryu should be kept in both articles at all times, since they are a continuation of that article... Thank you for your co-operation! -- Mario R 21:44, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Unprotected
It's about nearly two weeks, that's long enough. I don't want to see a repetition of edit warring, I'll be watching and will deal with serious disruption as I judge necessary. --Tony Sidaway Talk 18:06, 10 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I am in all honesty trying to rewrite some sentences to make it as neutral as possible. By for example adding "according to WGKF" in some cases that are disputed by the other side and by adding links with evidence to prove statements, I hope to accomplish this. Anyway, true or not, it doesn't really matter, this whole article is about World Genseiryu Karatedo Federation (WGKF) and therefore about the viewpoint of the WGKF, the federation that trains the traditional Genseiryu as taught by sensei Seiken Shukumine and follows his first book "Shin Karatedo Kyohan". This viewpoint should NOT be changed into the viewpoint of those following sensei Tosa. Their story is different and is the viewpoint of Genseiryu Karatedo International Federation. Although WGKF does not acknowledge that story, nobody of WGKF ever changed that article. Some people of GKIF (actually just one who is now using dynamic ip) have been changing this article here (WGKF) into the viewpoint of GKIF. Then the story is not anymore about WGKF but about GKIF and there is already an article about that! They should change that article, not this one, if they want to keep an honest and neutral environment on Wikipedia. Regards, Mario R 22:37, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Edit summaries
At least several of the edit summaries to these articles have been of an inflammatory nature. Edit summaries are for summarizing your edit not for attacking, criticising or disagreeing with anyone. Please confine your discussions to talk pages and be WP:CIVIL. I am going to warn you both openly that, if you continue using such edit summaries, you will surely be blocked, although the anonymous IP user should take particular note. I would urge you to look for other areas of Wikipedia to contribute to as well, where you may find less conflict. -Splash 22:30, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

again reverted
like the Main article about Genseiryu a good NPOV article by Mario Roering is deleted and replaced by an article that is not neutral but the point of view of Butokukai Denmark. I will write an article that can't be disputed and hope they will see this. Because this is a time consuming work I will, at the moment, revert the article to the more correct version without insulting remarks like WGKF say Sensei Shukumine appointed 2 years after his death a succesor. They want to make fun and that is not a good intention to write an article. WGKF accept and respect the way of training by everyone. They just say they follow the way sensei Shukumine concerning Genseiryu by following his first book SHin Karatedo Kyohan. Also nobody thinks that the document signed by sensei Shukumine, where he mentiones that Genseiryu is training Ten-Chi-Jin-I-No kata, is false. Even Butokukai Denmark doesn't really think it.They just don't like that this pamphlet exist that is signed by the founder.--TenChiJin 07:55, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Deleting part about Genseiryu-Butokukai
Some anonymous user, uses different ip addresses to delete the whole part about Genseiryu-Butokukai all the time. We all know who this person is, but let´s just say this person belongs to GKIF and he simply does not like it that WGKF has this viewpoint about this organization. However, there is absolute NO slandering, degrading or insulting text in that part, so there is NO reason to delete this. As a matter of fact, this is a piece of story that BELONGS in the article about WGKF, since it is their viewpoint and it makes the (layman) reader understand there are in fact more Genseiryu organizations. Removing this part of text, just because it´s not the viewpoint of the reader, is therefore considered vandalism and will not be accepted! -- Mario R 17:34, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Can we try to fix this?
Whilst I am prepared to invest time in this, I would also note that User:JeremyA has also tried counselling both parties, but neither responded to the suggestion that you take this to RfC or RfAr &mdash; this gives the impression you prefer to continue the fight. It is clear that there is unlikely to be a resolution via talk pages, and that the situation has largely degenerated to sterile reverting. Let me present to you the alternatives available, in order of preference:


 * 1) Come to an agreement via the talk pages, or your user talk pages;
 * 2) Try informal mediation;
 * 3) Take the matter to an article-based RfC;
 * 4) Take the matter to a user-behaviour RfC;
 * 5) Request formal mediation at RfM;
 * 6) Take the matter to the Arbitration Committee at RfAr.

Options 1 and 2 show little sign of working. I suspect that, due to the specialist nature of the subject, option 3 would be unlikely to produce much other than alternative forum to fight in. However, it must surely be worth a try. Why not go list the article at RfC for a week or so and see what happens?

Option 2 remains open to you all however. If you can present evidence, externally verifiable, on this talk page to back your claims I would be interested to read it. It sounds as if there must be some way to present both sides of the argument in the same article.

Option 4 is on the way to an Arbitration. It will probably produce comments positive and negative on the behaviour of all parties involved. Reqeusts for Mediation presently have a considerable backlog, but one suppose that, if all the earlier options have failed that it would not be unreasonable to skip that part out. That leaves Arbitration. The Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) generally takes a dim view of edit warring on any article for any reason. It takes a generally dimmer view when all other avenues of cooperation have been exhausted without result. It does not usually determine content issues. So one possible outcome is that both of you are banned from editing either article (under any IP address or account) for a lengthy period; you will probably also be cautioned against making attacks in summaries or edit pages with the threat of blocks if you do. The ArbCom rarely decides completely one way or the other. I would advise that Arbitration be avoided if at all possible.

If you cannot proffer good, referenced evidence in pursuit of option 2, can I invite you to file an article RfC first, give it a week to see if comments are incoming, and take it from there? -Splash 20:20, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

GKIF
I have removed the section of GKIF as there is already an article on Genseiryu Karate-do International Federation. I don't see how a discussion of GKIF is relevant to this article and the presentation of the removed section seems to me to be intended solely to annoy a certain GKIF member. JeremyA (talk) 01:02, 19 August 2005 (UTC)


 * There was no section of GKIF! There was however a section called "The 'other' Genseiryu style" that showed how this new Genseiryu style came alive according to WGKF. At the end of the paragraph there is a reference to GKIF and people can go there to read further... However, WGKF believes that the story of GKIF is wrong and is only told in that way so they can promote themselves better. The true history NEEDS to be told in the article about WGKF. It's their viewpoint and therefore important information for an understanding of the way WGKF thinks, trains and deals with the situation. The story on the GKIF page is their viewpoint, and I think they will find it important to tell this story for their own reasons...
 * I will see how this story can be rewritten, but it cannot be discarded totally from WGKF. -- Mario R 11:37, 21 August 2005 (UTC)


 * This part is now totally rewritten to make the importance of this part clear: the reasons for the establishment of the WGKF. I did mention the GKIF with an internal link, since this is the Wikipedia way, even though I don't agree with what is written in that article. Just for the record: my hands are itching to change the misinformation and lies in that article as well, but I won't, since it would only start another edit war!! I believe it is a good thing to have "their" story on GKIF and "our" story here on WGKF. If each side would stay away from the other side, the edit war would finally be over! Now, there is the problem: we are willing to stay away from GKIF, but people from GKIF are not willing to stay away from WGKF! So WHO is keeping the edit war alive here??? -- Mario R 13:06, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Research
In the summary of a, so called "edit", by an anonymous user of whom we all know it's Peter Lee, done on the 24th of August 2005 (couple of times) it's written:


 * (This version is the most reliable version according to any facts, and according to any source!!!
 * All herein is researched. Mario Roering is a twisted insane person and so are his edits!)

Besides the fact that he keeps insulting me by calling me all kinds of names to which I will only comment by saying look in the mirror!, he is talking about some "research". Let me tell you here that this alleged research is the research performed by one single man (you guessed: Peter Lee!). I do not know if he really did research it all and is deliberately twisting the truth, but I have done a counter-research, together with a colleague, and came to a whole bunch of different conclusions!!! So far for this by Peter Lee so called "research" then... Now, researched or not, this article here is about WGKF, the World Genseiryu Karatedo Federation. Everything written here is their point of view. It is not necessary to start every single sentence with "according to WGKF...", since it is already the title of the article, so it must be clear to anybody that this is about them, from them and according to them! Deleting the facts (researched or not) and replacing them with the 'facts' from one single person who claims to have done research, but only brings in HIS point of view, makes the whole article about something that is NOT WGKF, but maybe about Peter Lee, or, just maybe, about GKIF... And of course that is absolutely wrong! That is not what the article is about... Nobody sees people from WGKF changing the story on GKIF, do you?? -- Mario R 14:36:29, 2005-08-24 (UTC)


 * My interpretation of WP:NPOV is a little different. You say: "this article here is about WGKF... so it must be clear to anybody that this is about them, from them and according to them". The "about them" part is obviously true. However the "from them" part is not obvious&mdash;for example, I don't think that the NATO article is written by NATO; and the "according to them" part flies in the face of NPOV.


 * My interpretation of WP:NPOV is that while the article should clearly be about the WGKF, but it should be written from the point of view of a dispassionate outsider. Therefore, where two different organisations (or individuals) disagree on a point, that should be made clear in the article. "according to the WGKF... " is a bad wording, as it implies to me that the this is what the WGKF say but we don't believe it. However, sentences could start something like "the WGKF states... " or, "the WGKF asserts..."   JeremyA (talk) 22:43, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Request for Comments
This is to let you know that a Request for Comments has been filed which concerns the conduct of the two principal editors of this article, Peter Lee and Mario Roering. You can find it here: Requests for comment/Peter Lee and Mario Roering. It having now been certified by the two relevant editors and having had the relevant evidence supplied, it is now open for comments.

Please provide a response as you feel appropriate in the assigned section of the article. Please keep discussion to the talk page. Please keep things civil, and be aware that any member of the community is entitled to comment as they see fit. -Splash 03:22, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Name slandering
Peter Lee, please, STOP reverting my reverts. I have been reverting YOUR edits because:
 * You are slandering people's names;
 * You are accusing people of things, that only YOU claim and can not be backed up with evidence;
 * You are using own made-up stories, pure lies with no references or back up whatsoever.

It is obvious to any outsider that everything you are writing on that article, is to bring the WGKF in discredit. That alone makes your ferry tale totally unbelievable.

You also write the following in the edit summaries:
 * "If any counter evidence exist, please present them". So, if I would write in an article of another person, let's say the Prime Minister of Denmark, that he has forged papers in the past, to get him to the top, then OTHER people would have to prove that this is NOT the case??? Come on, don't be ridiculous. YOU claim something, so YOU have to prove it. Not the other way around!!!
 * "You would never accept any facts, witnesses, documentations, papers etc." Again, YOU are the one who is not accepting any facts. The "facts" are not as you claim. For whatever you are claiming, you don't HAVE any documentations or papers or witnesses, so they are surely NOT "facts"! Then they also do not belong in Wikipedia. Maybe in your memoirs or another ferry tale book, but NOT here!
 * "The refence and documentation has been very well explained and included in the article and on the talk page." Again, they are NOT explained with references or any sort of proof. Also on the talk page, your rant and name slandering just continues. What is WRONG with you? Why is it so important to you that the WGKF and certain persons inside that organization, persons you don't even know, are brought into a bad daylight???
 * "Stop your vandalism crusade". Again, it's YOU who is vandalizing. Since you are ranting and name slandering without any prove of evidence in the article.

Anyway... Read the Wikipedia guidelines properly. You will see there, that I am right. You will lose this for sure, if you want to turn this into an edit war!!!


 * You are unbelievable. Look at the facts, read the explanations carefully, and you will see, that what I have written has been fully covered in terms of documentation. Eye witnesses, documents etc. has been covered as well. If you choose not to believe my story, then please write your own eye witness report. But you can't do that can you? Because you were not there. What I have written in the WGKF article are facts. The only people involved about the letter handed over to me by Konno are Konno himself, me and Tosa shihan. Anything you say, write or claim can never counter my recounting of the story. Further, the story is backed up my Tosa shihan. Only one left is Konno, whom I believe will never tell you the truth anyway I believe. He never did in the past.
 * As for the false certificate recounting, I was a witness to all of this as was about 500 other people who attended the seance in Denmark on 6th May 1996. You were not there, so how on earth can you say that my story is a fairy tale? Get a grip.
 * Now, stop vandalizing my talk page, stop vandalizing the articles, and start contributing in a way that puts true information to the articles instead of simply removing my additions. And stop accusing me of all your crap. I have not called you any names, I have not slandered anyone and so on. YOU are the one doing that. The rest of your nonsense I will not justify with any kind of attention. If you want to continue a revert and edit war, I am game, but like I have said before, it will be a waste of time and benefit no one. But I guess you are too thick headed to even try to grasp that fact. Peter Lee (talk) 03:19, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I am unbelievable??? You are the one who is slandering people's names, totally against the guidelines and policies of Wikipedia. Also I am defending a person whom I know personally and who doesn't deserve what you are doing here. I don't care what meeting you attended. I know for sure it wasn't an official meeting by the Danish Karate Federation, since you are absolutely not welcome there anymore. So, WHO is thick headed here???
 * I agree that an edit war will be a waste of time, but you are asking for it, as long as you are posting unfactual information that you have made up yourself, together with your made-up meeting. Oh, maybe there was a meeting, but the things you write, surely didn't come out of that meeting! And, in that meeting, if there even was any, the mentioned person you keep slandering the name of, was not there to defend himself against any accusation you talk about!!! So, now, for the last time: COME UP WITH EVIDENCE, BEFORE YOU ACCUSE SOMEBODY!!!! Mario R 03:45, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * You should have a look here: Genseipedia if evidence is what you are looking for. At least here are available some of the evidence to contradict your accusations and perception of facts. Peter Lee (talk) 04:00, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * YOU DANISH MORON! You OWN that site!!! Is THAT your proof??? You created it, you own it, you are the main writer/editor/moderator!!! You think I am THAT dumb, that I will now suddenly say, "oh yeah, you are sooooo right"???? On that web site, you just go on slandering people's names, telling bs stories, making false accusations. Man, will you NEVER stop??? Mario R 04:09, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * MORON? OMG, you really are a lost case. No, I don't expect you to do or understand anything. But I was kind of hoping that the facts concerning the certificates, which are put on Genseipedia as evidence, would clear up a few things for you. But I guess there is no hope for you ever to read or accept facts and evidence, even like now, when they are thrown in your face. Like I said, you don't have to agree with me, but you cannot disregard facts, if you are serious about writing the truth. But you ARE disregarding the facts, even when evidence and the people involved are putting the stories and evidence right up in your face. THAT is indeed a pity. So stop your slandering and accusations, because YOU are the only one doing that. I guess you are too blind to see the trees, as the forest is in your way? Unbelievable. Peter Lee (talk) 04:33, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Please, both of you, stop edit warring and discuss this like civil people. If necessary ask an admin what to do. But dont edit war. - 4twenty42o (talk) 04:40, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your interest. If you take a look at the history, you will see, that this has been going on for 5-6 years. If you can suggest some proper solution, please let me know, as this war benefit no one, but will keep going on as long as Mario Roering deletes facts and researched information from the articles, and as long as he provokes in the way only he does best. His edits are in no way what so ever "....good faith edit" as you wrote earlier. On the contrary. Peter Lee (talk) 04:48, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * (after edit conflict:) Stop acting like you know it all and you hold all the evidences, Peter. Like I said, YOU own that website. There IS no clear evidence there, only a bunch of made-up stories. More lies. More slander. More accusations... The so-called "facts" there are twisted, into your own little world. And if anybody tries to change it, YOU just change it back. Since YOU are the HEAD MODERATOR (since you OWN that site), you can just change everything into anything you like and you can ban the persons who write stuff that is not to your satisfaction. Just like you did on your forum, remember? Therefor, I won't even TRY it... So, give me a break, and cut the crap. You are no good and you are smearing the names of good persons. Why? Maybe it makes you feel better, I don't know, but I will stand up for righteous people. And for myself. You can count on that!
 * Oh, by the way, Peter, may I remind you that you are now doing the EXACT same thing as 4 years ago, on Genseiryu? You were also constantly changing the article into something far from NPOV. To remind you, that means "Neutral Point of View". And in Wikipedia, the articles have to be NPOV. Making all kinds of accusations in an article is FAR from that! So, stop it, or I am sure that eventually you will get another ban in the end, like the 1-year-ban you had then... Just to remind you how that edit war ended. Stop this nonsens now. This costs too much time of too many people! --Mario R  04:53, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I am surely not the one who is provoking here, as can be clearly seen in the article. Peter Lee is constantly busy writing bad things about WGKF and certain persons in that organization. Of course, if there would be something bad to write that is worth mentioning, okay, but in this case, it is all coming from HIS own "research". The only thing Peter Lee wants, is to see the WGKF gone, and all the people in it, with it. On the other hand, my own feeling is, that we all live in the same world, and we should come to some understanding. But there cannot be any understanding, as long as Peter finds it necessary to smear a good person's name and accuse him of things that never happened. Or if it did, show proof... For me, I just want the TRUTH on the table and in Wikipedia. And Peter Lee's "truth" has, in the past 5-6 years, NEVER EVER been backed up with clear evidence... --Mario R 05:00, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Allow me to clarify, I was reverting your change because both of you are edit warring. I believe that you are both editing in good faith but I am trying to decide if you should both be reported and probably both blocked. Or if you can come to some sort of amicable agreement. Regardless of what you are warring about it is still wrong. I agree with Mario that you are removing content and not properly discussing the changes. But I also agree with you that some work needs to be done. - 4twenty42o (talk) 05:03, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * THANK YOU 4twenty42o. But I can asure you, if you go into the history of changes on Genseiryu, you will see that Peter Lee is NOT editing in good faith. Slandering somebody's name like he does, that is NOT good faith!!! As a matter of fact, on the Dutch wikipedia he was banned for a year, for his constant vandalism of the article of Genseiryu... Go ask around there, you will see. Peter is only after a total deletion of WGKF, as well as on Wikipedia as in real life. He is a liar and a fraud. His black belt is not even acknowledged by the Danish Karate Federation. Give one phone call to the Danish Karate Federation, and ask about him, and you will know enough! Now Peter will call this "slander" again, but THAT is the truth! One phone call... All I am saying... You have to know, who is really editing in good faith and who isn't. Look at my contributions to IGKF (that is Peter's federation): NONE. I leave them alone. I don't write or change anything there... Regards, --Mario R 05:15, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Reply to 4twenty42o. Am I removing content? Not at all. Mario Roering suddenly removed large chunks of text, and all I have done is reverting back to before he removed the text. Now, if you have that view of my edits/reverts, then you are ignorant of what is going on here. Please check the history of the page better before agreeing wrongly with Mario Roerings and his false accusations.
 * Reply to Mario Roering. You have a rigid view of everything. Starting Genseipedia does not mean that I am the only one editing articles there. Not at all. Your accusations I leave in the air as they once again are crap. The evidence put on Genseipedia are exactly that. Or perhaps you suggest that I made the certificates myself and put them there? What about Willem Varenkamp who received a 3rd dan from Konno years ago, when he was still Konno's student? Is what Willem says also lies? He was without a doubt the one in Holland who ever got closest to Konno, and thus know more about Konno and his ways than anyone else in Holland. Or are you again suggesting that Willem is lying as well? What about the evidence and stories of Tosa shihan? What of the printed articles from 1992 and later in the Dutch Magazine "Karate" (2 articles in two different issues actually) where Konno falsely claims to have been awarded 6th dan from Tosa shihan? What about that evidence? Are they also something, which I have made up? Are these also fairy tales? YOU are the one calling me a lier and a fraud without any kind of evidence. YOU are living in the past. Now, wake up and get a grip. Peter Lee (talk) 05:19, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * A note/reply to Mario Roering. What the heck does Danish Karate Federation have to do with my examinations in Genseiryu? Nothing at all. Only Genseiryu Karate-do International Federation has the authority and competence to hold examinations in the name of Genseiryu. Neither the Danish Karate Federation nor Konno has any authorization on this issue. Your claim that GKIF is MY organization is also crap. The organization is the only world wide recognized organization of Genseiryu also approved in Japan by the Japan Karate-do Federation. It is the oldest organization as well. You are very well aware of all this, but you would of course never admit that in an agument where your only aim is to push me out and off Wikipedia. Facts and truth is not your aim, on the contrary, only lies and deceit is your aim and what you do best. Evidence thrown in your face has no effect. I feel pity for you. Peter Lee (talk) 05:28, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

AN/I
I initiated a conversation regarding both of you at AN/I. I strongly suggest you both stop edit warring and comment there and try to settle this. I personally find it most disturbing that you are continuing the fight after this many years. I really hope you two can find away around your differences and contribute positively. Regards - 4twenty42o (talk) 05:42, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I rolled the article back one reversion as a start point. More information will likely be added after you 2 calm down some. I am not taking sides but please do not revert my change please until we reach a consensus here. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia gentlemen. Please act accordingly or I will request a page protect, and neither of ya gets to edit. Regards - 4twenty42o (talk) 06:07, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you NOT taking sides? What kind of talk is that? You just did exactly what Mario Roering wanted you to do. If you would revert the deletions done by Mario in order to revert it back to the article BEFORE he started doting this, then I would believe you, but not this way. This is what Mario Roering and you have deleted from the article Deletions by you and Mario. Peter Lee (talk) 06:16, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Just as a heads-up...I've taken this edit war to AN:EW here. Frmatt (talk) 06:21, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * My intention is not to take sides but to trim the article down so that you can both help improve it. Would it be agreeable to revert back to the version by JeremyA? Opinions please, both of you. - 4twenty42o (talk) 06:23, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, no. That would mean that my hard work for both research, writing, editing and expansion of the article has been a big waste. Inside my additions are the clear explanations as to what happened, how it happened and where the information comes from. The contributions was written in the spirit of Wikipedia (as supposed to be inside an encyclopedia) and should remain there. Of course. Deletion as done by Mario Roering is the same as keeping facts and/or the entire story hidden from the peoples reading the article. Truth is not always well received, but I believe it is indeed very important to offer it. Don't you agree? Peter Lee (talk) 06:33, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the truth is not always well received. But that is not the point of this discussion.. well not yet anyways.. Listen there are others watching this article now to prevent more edit warring. Please do not edit until we can reach a consensus to do so. I am off for now but I will be back tomorrow. - 4twenty42o (talk) 06:42, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Is it not the point of this discussion? Well, what is it then? And don't insult me by threating me that others are watching this article as well. That is not the issue here. Seing you asking me to stay away from any more reverts on this article after you have sided with Mario Roering is indeed the issue. That would mean that my edits have no weight here, and that Mario Roering, who is in fact just aiming to slander me, is laughing in the shadows. What kind of ridiculous way to make an encyclopedia is that? Deleting facts and big chunks of text in an article, and then getting support from you and others to keep doing that must constitute the biggest contradictions to what Wikipedia is or at least should be. Peter Lee (talk) 06:51, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Now you are being cynical for no reason. First and foremost you are engaged in an edit war. That means that you will more than likely find yourself blocked and the page protected from editing if you were to revert. That would be the only reason for my friendly warning. Second and really more importantly, I am not taking sides. I try to remain neutral in all edits regardless of who they are to or what they regard. If you truly question my integrity I invite you to report my perceived flaws to who ever you care to.  Third, I reverted to the version that would be the easiest to add to. Nothing is lost and I am not belittling your efforts. Now I am going to sign off here. I will be back on after work. I hope you take some time and think about this. It is not my wish to anger and I hope you can see that. - 4twenty42o (talk) 07:01, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification. I very well understand even though I don't like this wasting time because of Mario Roering's culprit ways. Have a nice day at work. Peter Lee (talk) 07:16, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

World Genseiryū Karate-dō Federation
You should not take sides, but in fairness revert back to BEFORE today's revert war began with Mario Roering's deletions. All I did was to undo/revert what Mario initiated. Please get your facts straight before accusing me and taking sides with Mario Roering who is in fact the culprit here. See my reply on Talk:World Genseiryū Karate-dō Federation. Peter Lee (talk) 06:25, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Good luck with this article...based on the level of rhetoric, I'm guessing that neither of these two will want to compromise. Thank you for trying though! Frmatt (talk) 06:27, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * smh.. Yea I gotta wonder what makes some people tick.. Peter I am most certainly not taking sides. I reverted to the smallest, easiest to sort out version. I am not trying to slight you. It was simply the most expedient way to find somewhere to begin. Please adjust your comments to include even the slightest understanding of the assumption of good faith. I am not biased one way or the other and I am more concerned about improving the article and encyclopedia than I am making either one of you feel better than the other.   - 4twenty42o (talk) 06:35, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No matter your good intentions, what I see is what I can take into account. And what you did, is exactly taking sides with Mario Roering by keeping HIS deletions and asking me to back off. If you had reverted back to the last edit as before Mario Roering started this latest edit/deletion war, then I may have believed you. Sorry for that, but you must try to put yourself in my position as well. My edits has been very well explained, and has absolutely nothing to do with slandering, putting forward accusations or any of the sort. All I have done is expanding the article with facts, which I have either experienced myself, as I was in the middle of it, or have gathered from my countless interviews and facts/documents gathering for almost 20 years now. I have been involved with Genseiryu Karate for more than 30 years, and have seen, experienced and been part of Genseiryu and has taken an active part of its expansion in Europe since 1996. Mario Roering is merely a newcomer and an aggressive subservant of Konno, who is a self proclaimed authority on Genseiryu. Just because Mario Roering is the one shouting the loudest, does not mean that he is the one we should listen to. Even though Mario does not agree with the inclusion of the facts I have provided, then they are without any shred of doubt very important for the understanding of what the World Genseiryu Karate Federation is. Mario Roering can even dispute whatever he want, but as I was there watching it happen, and making it happen and being the person making the contact as a courier of letters and messages, I am indeed the most important source of information on the matter. Mario Roering was never even close to any of these things, thus any and all of his crap talk about slandering etc. is totally misplaced. Even though it might not be well received by Mario, he cannot change the facts of the past, and it is my opinion, that everyone should be offered the chance to get the entire story so they can make up their own mind in any way they want. If Mario Roering want to add some other true researched facts, then of course he is welcome. But simply deleting my contributions and at the same time calling me a lier, a fraud and accusing me of slandering is an outrage, especially when this is not stopped by the sysops at Wikipedia. That is in fact why I started the Genseipedia in 2005, which is also why I kept away from Wikipedia for a while. Not much have changed here at Wikipedia during that time unfortunately. Peter Lee (talk) 07:12, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I responded to your post earlier in the above section and moved this from my talk to here. My talk page is not the proper venue for this conversation. - 4twenty42o (talk) 07:17, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Although it is pretty obvious where Peter's story is leading to, I do feel the need to, once more, defend myself on a few accusations that he is making... First of all, it must be clear that what I did in the article, is taking out all the items that was turning the article from a NPOV to a name slandering vendetta of Peter Lee against a certain well-respected person inside the karate world. All I want is an honoust NPOV article, as I aim for with ANY article on Wikipedia. I do not try to turn the facts for WGKF just because I am a part of it. If a given 'fact' is not a true fact or if any accusation made has no back-up or reference, then I think it should not be on Wikipedia, or any other Encyclopedia for that matter. I think any administrator on Wikipedia will agree with that...
 * As for me, I am not the "self proclaimed authority on Genseiryu", I have never said such a thing. However, I was asked by the highest Dutch authority in Genseiryu to work as pr man inside Genseiryu, for Genseiryu in The Netherlands as well as Genseiryu in general. In my opinion I was asked to do so because of my enthousiasm, writing capabilities and knowledge of the internet. I am not really a newcomer. I have been involved in martial arts since 1987 and in the past 5 years I have done a thorough study on Genseiryu karate, have met many people inside that world and have even travelled to Japan several times, where I even met the Shukumine family (Seiken Shukumine was the founder of Genseiryu) and the head of the World Genseiryu Karatedo Federation. I have found out a lot of things about the history of Genseiryu, the split-up of several styles, among which is Genseiryu Butokukai (of which Peter Lee is part), but also I have found out many things about Peter Lee himself. Some of which I can prove on paper, some of which can only be told by witnesses... Now, I am really getting sick and tired of constantly having to defend myself against the rant and slander of this Danish boy, a self proclaimed Shihan, who simply was given a black belt that is not even reckognized by the Danish Karate Federation (where he was even thrown out of, because of his attitude. Like I said earlier, call the DKF, they can surely tell you, if they don't already slam the phone on the hook by hearing the name of Peter Lee). On every post on forums, Peter constantly signs with "Peter Lee, Shihan". Shihan, like other honorific suffixes such as sensei and san, is a title that is NEVER EVER used by yourself in the Japanese culture. Only others can refer to you with that title. EVERY Japanese person, EVERY person with even the slightest knowledge about Japanese culture knows that! This just illustrates the arrogance of this person...

Now, when it comes to a constructive solution for the problem of this edit war: only through mediation there can be a solution. Peter Lee has been told in the past more than once, that the way he works is not a good attitude on Wikipedia, and he has been blocked several times for that (,, , , and so on). I am not saying that I am an angel here, I also have done my share of shouting and breaking the Three-Revert-Rule, but I am surely trying a lot harder to get to a good NPOV article. As the edit war in 2005, about the article Genseiryū showed, Peter Lee will not commit to the Wikipedia guidelines, nor will he stop adding nonsense stories and all kinds of accusations to the articles. People I would recommmend to help in mediation are: Splash, JeremyA, Waerth and Effeietsanders. The latter two are also active on the Dutch Wikipedia and were involved in a similar edit war there, where eventually Lee got banned for a year. All these people have been involved in the edit war of 2005 and know us better than anybody else on Wikipedia. I hope they are willing to help out in this serious problem. For now, I hope this article will be further monitored by one or more administrators, that will see to it that NO nonsense is added anymore, NO name slandering is done anymore and NO lies are told anymore. I will refrain from adding any new (disputed) material to this article or the Genseiryu article, unless I can back it up with references... --Mario R 17:59, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Sources?
Are there any sources that show this organization meets WP:ORG? If not, I'll list it at WP:AFD. -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  13:48, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Genseiryu Karate is a very notable martial art style studied through out the world. Runors throughout the US Army insist that Matt Larsen studied at a Genseiryu Karate school. However as far as the WGKF goes I am unable to find much more than a few mentions on Google. The original version of this article contained links to several websites supporting the art. But they have all been removed at various times over the years. I did however take a look at archive.org last night and found the sites again but they are in other languages. I am going to go to the library today for another matter but I'll have a look and see if I can find anymore solid info. Cheers! - 4twenty42o (talk) 15:05, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I assume we are conferring notability upon the organization because it's the "head school" for this martial arts style? I couldn't find anything on Google about the organization besides incidental mentions. -- Neil N    talk  ♦  contribs  15:57, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

And what's with the "Visiting Seiken Shukumine, taking pictures" section? Sounds as if it's trying to describe some controversy without providing any reliable sources which is totally against Wikipedia guidelines. -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  16:49, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I totally agree. This has nothing to do directly with the WGKF. Why don't you remove it? --Mario R 18:01, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Judging from the above, you're one of the parties involved in the edit war but in this case you're right, it seems to be an unsourced coatrack. Removed. -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  18:23, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Acceptable Sources
Before adding material to the article please read the Wikipedia guideline on reliable sources and policies on verifiability and no original research. Any contentious material must be attributed to a reliable, published source - personal websites and experiences cannot be used. -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  18:42, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Hangon added
I added the hangon tag. The World Genseiryu Karatedo Federation is an existing federation that is worth mentioning either here, or on the Genseiryu page. Since in the past it was a problem to mention this federation together with the IGKF, the "other" Genseiryu organization, in the same article (it resulted in an edit war), it has been decided to give both their own wiki. I will try to find when that decision was made and how it came to that. Now removing this article means that somebody will eventually bring it up again in the Genseiryu article. Then somebody of IGKF will edit that again in a way that it will again be slandered, and thus we will be back to "square one"... I do understand that the article here is not up to Wikipedia standards, and I will try to fix that somehow. But I will need some time. --Mario R 19:10, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with the hangon. My toolings at the library turned up very little with regards to the federation but I htink notability can still be asserted. - 4twenty42o (talk) 19:32, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks 4twenty42o. Err.. What would be a normal "hangon time"? You see, I have a life next to all this editing and defending my name and other people's good name... It will surely take a while before I can look into it. --Mario R 19:45, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * That depends on the admins. I'd imagine since it has been here so long we will have an AfD. But why don't you do what you can do rebuild the references section. Gather whatever ref's you have and post them here. I will see what I can dig up when I go to Chicago this weekend. There are much better libraries up there. - 4twenty42o (talk) 19:48, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I removed the CSD on good faith that notability can be asserted. How's a week sound for finding refs? -- Neil N    talk  ♦  contribs  19:50, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Short, but appreciate removing the CSD. I will see with I can do... Thanks. --Mario R 21:25, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * A week would be the same length as a standard AfD discussion anyway, so this is just a less formal process. DMacks (talk) 22:06, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

So far this is what I could come up with as trustworthy references. Some of it is in Japanese, but hey, Karate is after all a Japanese martial art. Gotta find a Japanese administrator if you still feel the need to check all the sources... Sorry about that. If I can find out more I won't hesitate to mention it here or in the article itself, if it's worth mentioning there and verifiable... Hope that the article is now meeting up to the Wikipedia standards and the CSD will stay removed permanently. Thanks for your trust in me and your patience... --Mario R 19:39, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Since the article now contains references and is more up to Wikipedia standards, I have removed the Refimprove and Cleanup templates... --Mario R 20:38, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, I agree. -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  21:15, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Facts are Manipulated and Left out in bad Faith
The socalled "improvements" by Mario Roering is at best an effort to reinstating the exact same article as it existed 4-5 years ago. The article now include an extreme amount of manipulation. For example, the World Genseiryū Karatedō Federation is in no way whatsoever recognized as belonging to the family of Genseiryu in neither Japan nor anywhere else in the world. Official documents signed by officials of the Japan Karate-do Federation (official Japan national karate federation) has been sent to members of the federation and some of these documents have even been published on the Internet. They can be found at the homepage of the official honbu dojo in Japan. Direct links to the documents can be found here:. These documents also clearly states, that the only recognized official kata of Genseiryū are those practiced by the oldest federation on Genseiryū in the world: The Genseiryū Karate-do International Federation. This has also been noted and discussed earlier, but Mario Roering continues to neglect these facts and instead include his own personal manipulated text into Wikipedia. Removing the text explaining the reasons for the establishment of the WGKF is an essential information, which Mario Roering thus deprive the reader. The main character in all of this is the director general of WGKF, Nobuaki Konno, whom has falsified certificates and handed them out to his students and at the same time claiming to have been awarded the rank of 6th dan from Kunihiko Tosa, the supreme master (Saiko-Shihan) of Genseiryu. These claims are all lies, as Nobuaki Konno has no license to host examinations in the name of Genseiryu nor handing out certificates in the name of Genseiryu. No such rank or license have ever been given to Nobuaki Konno by the Genseiryū Karate-do International Federation or its president, Kunihiko Tosa. There exist articles published in Holland (The Netherlands) martial arts magazines, which constitute hardcopy evidence of these false claims by Nobuaki Konno. Making false certificates and handing them out reached its climax on 6th May 1996 in Denmark, when the president of GKIF, Kunihiko Tosa, in front of several hundred people announced that Nobuaki Konno was to be cut off because of lying and deceitfully manufacturing certificates with Mr. Tosa's name on them. Nobuaki Konno lied and conducted these actions in order to present himself as something he was not and at the same time abusing the name and legacy of the master for personal gain in bad faith. After being cut off in 1996 the relationship has never been redeemed. Last attempt to remedy the past and to become a full member of Genseiryū was initiated right after the founder of Genseiryu, Seiken Shukumine, died on 26th November 2001. A sealed letter was handed directly by Nobuaki Konno to myself (Peter Lee), president of Genseiryū in Denmark and since 2003, also president in Europe. I was to hand the letter over to the Genseiryū president in Japan and worldwide, Kunihiko Tosa. Thus I did that shortly after my arrival in Japan on November 27th 2001. Mario Roering keeps all this important information out, and claims that several Genseiryū instructors from various countries such as Denmark, Holland, Spain, Finland and Japan met in Oviedo, Spain for the establishment of the WGKF. The fact is that NONE of those instructors invited to this meeting had anything to do with Genseiryu. They were all rejected from any and all kind of membership and NONE of them was ever given a chance to take any kind of examination in Genseiryū, nor did ANY of them obtain any kind of license under Genseiryū to host examinations, open dojos or even teach in the name of Genseiryū. The people invited to the meeting were all practitioners/instructors of TAIDO and/or karate of various styles and backgrounds in both Gōjū-ryū, Shinen-ryu, Shotokan-ryu etc. but NONE of them were Genseiryū instructors. There is absolute no doubt to these facts, as they have been hammered onto homepages for years, documents as shown above have been issued by the national karate federation in Japan (Japan Karate-do Federation, JKF) and myself as the first ever holder of a teaching- and examination license in Genseiryū in Europe. I am the president of Genseiryū in Europe with HQ located in Denmark. I have an official license with special written permission to expand Genseiryū in Denmark as well as Europe, I am the first ever in Europe to have passed the examination for 6th dan in Genseiryū. All is very well documented and verified i.e. by having my examinations, education and licenses done and issued in Japan by the highest authority on Genseiryū still alive today: President and Saiko-Shihan (supreme master) Kunihiko Tosa. Mr. Tosa hold the highest rank ever awarded to any practitioner and/or instructor of Genseiryū in the world. Mr. Tosa hold the rank of 9th dan in Genseiryū. In addition, Mr. Tosa hold the rank of 8th dan officially recognized by the national karate-do federation in Japan, the Japan Karate-do Federation (JKF). Mr. Tosa is the ONLY one in the world to hold any of these two ranks (official JKF and 9th dan Genseiryū). The founder of Genseiryū was awarded the rank of 8th dan by both the Dai Nippon Butokukai and the organization of Genseiryū at that time (this is disputed however by some. I have not been able to find any evidence of this claim, but I have not been able to find any counter evidence either). The oldest dojo still in existence in the world today (Japan) was opened by Mr. Tosa in 1959 a total of three years prior to the exit from karate by the founder of Genseiryū, Mr. Shukumine. Even the founder wrote a preface in the book on Genseiryū published by Mr. Tosa in 1984, thus proofing that a relationship existed between the two long time after Shukumine abandoned Genseiryū by the end of 1961 or early 1962 in pursuit of Taido. This is further backed up by official publications of pictures with the founder Mr. Shukumine and Mr. Tosa side by side at the annual New Years celebration held by the Genseiryū Karate-do International Federation in the 1980's and 1990's. The pictures are scarce after that, because Mr. Shukumine fell seriously ill, and was very ill for a few years leading up to his death in 2001. The claims that the book published by Mr. Shukumine in 1964 as genuine Genseiryū is also an insult to everything in regard to Genseiryū and the legacy of the masters. The book clearly states with bold print, that the katas depicted in that book are Ko-ryu kata NOT Genseiryū. Even when Taido practitioners perform these kata as an exhibition as nostalgia as evidence to where Taido originates, they announce these kata as KO-RYU kata NOT Genseiryū kata. Please notice that severeal videos that proof this are posted across Youtube in abundance by Taido practitioners and/or WGKF members who do not understand the Japanese talk and announcements in the videos. Please note that what I have mentioned many times before, what is shown in official documents by third parties as above etc. are manipulated, contradicted and/or simply erased without any regard to facts by the director general of the WGKF, Nobuaki Konno, and/or members and supporters from Holland and Denmark, in this case very much indeed by Mario Roering. Noone else, especially not from Japan, do any such degrading thing. Nobuaki Konno did some very unforgivable things in the 1980's and 1990's, which directly caused his chances of ever being part of Genseiryū to vanish in thin air. Everything what happened in those years and the years since then is a direct cause of the situation we have today (though Nobuaki Konno is not the only one to blame. In this regard I can mention Jari Hiltunen from Sweden. But that is another story). It is a pity, that Nobuaki Konno obviously still do these things, and at the same time seem to encourage his students and followers to continue this way of life and way of what they (WGKF) consider to be Genseiryū. This behavior is very well contrary to the facts, as none of the involved parties such as Nobuaki Konno and Mario Roering have any knowledge, education, practice, training, license or othwerwise relationship with Genseiryū. Claiming any of the sort is a lie and a consious attempt to manipulate the facts and at the same time abuse the name of Genseiryū for personal gain in bad faith at the expense of everyone else and the legacy of Genseiryū and the master who have worked hard and still are working hard to preserve Genseiryū for future generations.


 * Peter please do not start this again. This is not helpful at all. We are researching all of the references and trying to improve the article. It does not help when you come in and start making the same accusation again. It is very obvious that you do not like Mario now I am asking you one last time to stop being abusive and stop making accusations. Please give us time to improve the article. We would appreciate your help but this has to stop. OK? - 4twenty42o (talk) 05:32, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not "starting" anything "again". Honestly I don't agree with your concerns and I don't understand your worries here. I am not being either abusive or putting forward any accusations. I am simply describing a list of events, which has happened as I have noted above. They are not accusations or even abuse. They are as they are, facts and a description of events that ACTUALLY happened as I have told it above. If people don't like it, then that is their own problem. If we cannot write or mention the truth, then Wikipedia has no place in the world. Now please read the text as it was meant to be read. As information, though painful for some. This is also part of the past of the Genseiryū Karate-do International Federation of which I am the representative. And even though I don't like that past, I cannot erase it or even change it. It is as described above, and it is my believe that everyone should have a chance to know all the information as well as having a chance to make up their own mind about things. But please stop calling me abusive or saying that this has anything to do with me liking Mario Roering or not. That is not the issue here. The truth and the facts as they happened is the issue here. Peter Lee (talk) 11:43, 24 November 2009 (UTC)


 * tl;dr. If you want changes made, post the specific changes (i.e., the exact text) here along with the sources. Leave personal observations and insults out of it. -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  13:11, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Dear 4twenty42o and NeilN, I have just been reading Civil once more and there I find the following:

The following behaviors can all contribute to an uncivil environment:

1. Direct rudeness
 * (a) Rudeness, insults, name-calling, gross profanity or indecent suggestions;
 * (b) personal attacks, including racial, ethnic, sexual and religious slurs, and derogatory references to groups such as social classes or nationalities;
 * (c) ill-considered accusations of impropriety;
 * (d) belittling a fellow editor, including the use of judgmental edit summaries or talk-page posts (e.g. "snipped rambling crap", "that is the stupidest thing I have ever seen");

2. Other uncivil behaviors
 * (a) Taunting or baiting: deliberately pushing others to the point of breaching civility even if not seeming to commit such a breach themselves;
 * (b) harassment;
 * (c) lying to mislead, including deliberately asserting false information;
 * (d) quoting another editor out of context to give the impression they hold views they do not hold, or to malign them.

In addition, lack of care when applying other policies can lead to conflict and stress. For instance, referring to a user's good-faith edits as vandalism may lead to their feeling unfairly attacked. Use your best judgement, and be ready to apologize if you turn out to be wrong.

It is very obvious that Mr. Lee is breaking the civility rules of Wikipedia again and again, mainly breaking rules 1(c) (ill-considered accusations) and 2(c) (lying to mislead, including deliberately asserting false information. The information he writes is wrong, no trustworthy evidence underwrites his accusations. Also he is breaking rules 1(a) (because of his rudeness and insults, since his rude accusations are insulting not only me personally, but the entire Genseiryu community) and 2(a) (baiting, but this time I won't allow him to push me to the point of breaching civility. I will not even go into a discussion with him anymore, since in the past 5 years I have discovered that it is simply impossible to discuss anything with him, even when showing him evidence, he still won't stop denying the facts. This can all be seen clearly here, on his old talk page!)

On the same page it is written that: In the event of rudeness or incivility on the part of another editor, it is usually appropriate to discuss the offending words with that editor, and to request that editor to change that specific wording. Some care is necessary, however, so as not to further inflame the situation. It is not normally appropriate to edit or remove another editor's comment.

Now, this is a problem, I would like to discuss the offending words and accusations with the editor, but like I stated above, there is no way that anybody with a different view can discuss anything with Mr. Lee. Even showing clear evidence and explanations won't change his mind or his attitude. That makes it very, very, very hard to discuss anything with him. For example, if I would now state that his comparison between Genseiryū and Koryū is like comparing apples to fruit, he will surely come up with all kinds of nonsens stating the opposite. Even if I explain what I mean, because Genseiryū is a certain, particular karate style and Koryū (古流, こりゅう) is a Japanese word meaning "old school" or "old style" (as can be read also here on Wikipedia!). And that is just what Seiken Shukumine, the founder of Genseiryū did, he combined the "old school" with modern techniques... Lee's so-called "research" is not a very good one, 'coz this is one of the first things he would have learned about Genseiryū, if his "research" would have been a proper one...

Furthermore I found on No_personal_attacks the following (I removed the less important stuff and kept the part that is of concern in this case):

There is no rule that is objective and not open to interpretation on what constitutes a personal attack as opposed to constructive discussion, but some types of comments are absolutely never acceptable:


 * Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence.

Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done.

It clearly says on that Wikipedia page some types of comments are absolutely never acceptable. Now, I hope that somebody will do something about the bad behaviour of Mr. Lee. These are very serious accusations he is making here on Wikipedia. If nobody calls Mr. Lee's name slandering to a stop, it could be harmful to the persons in question. Unfortunately he wouldn't stop after trying going into a serious discussion with him and asking for evidence over and over again in the past 5-6 years (see here: !). Hopefully some administrator can talk some sense into him, since I have failed to do so and have given up all hope that I'll ever succeed in that... -- Mario R 12:48, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

First to Mario Roering: STOP insulting me. If a person uses polite language and put forward valid arguments, such as everyone else is doing a fine job at here at Wikipedia EXCEPT you, then no problem will occur in talking to me. AS YOU VERY WELL KNOW. I don't promise to agree if someone oppose me, but if the arguments are very well founded, I may agree. But so far you have not been able to do any of that, not at all in any way whatsoever. All opinions are to be heard, but you will not hear mine, despite of the facts I put forward. Despite the facts I have very well documented. And the fact is, that I have NOT called you any names or the sort, I have merely EXPRESSED my personal view and opinion of things and commented on your actions, which have only one purpose, namely to hurt not just me personally but also the legacy of the masters and Genseiryu in general. I have NOT violated any rules on Wikipedia. Even though it should be common knowledge by now, that you cannot win on arguments, evidence and/or history, when you fight me. It seems that the admins still have somewhat a favorable liking towards you. THAT is a misplaced favoritism. The only means you have left to fight me, is to keep me blocked from Wikipedia. Hence your dedicated interest in finding any and all mistakes on my part, even if those mistakes are only human. THAT is a disgraceful behavior in my opinion. We are here to write articles, not pick on each other. My concern is to include all relevant information, your aim is to keep it out. That is why we do not agree. So we have to agree to disagree but please stop your unbecoming crusade and STOP insulting me and stop deciding what is possible and whatnot. Also, your ever lasting referral to what happened 4-5 years ago by posting links, is also a disgrace on your part. First of all, what happened at that time on your part, is exactly the same you are doing now. Only difference between then and now is the fact, that I no longer WANT to leave Wikipedia. 4-5 years ago I decided that you are hopeless and impossible to reason with. And it took up too much of my time with all this squabbling. That was also one of the reasons for me to make Genseipedia, where you can be kept out easily. So at that time 4-5 years ago I simply let you have your way. This is not the case anymore. So now I will continue putting things right, and learn the rules and ways of Wikipedia as I go along. And I can assure you, if anyone can find any mistakes on my part, and if they can put forward VALID argumentation, then I will be happy to correct my ways. So far, that has never been your concern and it has never been your aim. Your only aim is to keep me blocked out of Wikipedia so you can have YOUR way. It should be common knowledge by now.

Second, response to NeilN: That is exactly what I believe I did. I posted links, and I have included the facts written in documents presented at these links. I have referred to letters written and sent to myself and others and those posted on the Internet. The claims posted by Mario Roering ARE NOT cited or even posted after a profound presentation of evidence. I have indeed also earlier included a link (posted here again: and  and ) to present evidence of the falsified certificates manufactured and sold/handed out by Nobuaki Konno to his students and followers (instructors) in Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Holland etc. But still this fact is ignored. How many times do I have to present hard solid evidence to get my point taken seriously? The fact is that Mario Roering is putting speculation, manipulative and incorrect information in the articles concerning Genseiryū be it the WGKF or GKIF or the main article. When will you start confronting him with these things? It has NOTHING to do with me liking or disliking Mario Roering. I cannot accept his ways and his bad faith editing for personal gain at the expensive of others and myself (Genseiryū Karate-do International Federation and Genseiryū in general). What he is doing is an insult to Genseiryū and the legacy of the masters. Peter Lee (talk) 14:27, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No, you have not proposed any specific wording changes to the article. The only way we're going to work through this is by slowly addressing article content. Let's take the first sentence. Are you ok with it? If not, what is your preferred wording? -- Neil N    talk to me  14:39, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for clearing that up. So far I have not seen that proposal anywhere before. So if that is what we are doing. Fine, let's get it on. But please answer this question then: WHY has Mario Roering been deleting and changing the articles on his own, WITHOUT using the method you have just proposed? Some communication flaws I guess. Is Mario Roering aware, that we are supposed to do exactly that, so we can prevent and edit war? Peter Lee (talk) 14:56, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I removed some unsourced coatracking text and Mario added some sources (I'm not passing judgement on the validity of the sources). I made the proposal after you expressed concerns about the changes. We have to start somewhere, right? -- Neil N   talk to me  15:05, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree, that we have to start somewhere. But what exactly have you removed? The article remains the same as edited by Mario Roering. Peter Lee (talk) 15:19, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I was referring to this. Let me be clear - I am not endorsing Mario's version but the article as it stands now is short and relatively neutrally worded. I expect there will be major changes as the process outlined below is followed. -- Neil N   talk to me  15:27, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, I see. Well, that section - which you removed regarding pictures - was put there by Mario Roering. I just changed the wording to include facts, instead of his "bad faith" text. We we do not disagree that some people who are now part of the WGKF visited Seiken Shukumine and even may have received some short lived training from him. Where we disagree is the fact that they were not taught in Genseiryu (but Taido) nor endorsed by Seiken Shukumine to establishing the WGKF. On the contrary, Mr. Shukumine disapproved of it. The exact same propaganda (in lack of a better word) can still be seen on Mario Roering's own external homepage. Anyway, let's start anew and see what the future brings this time. Peter Lee (talk) 15:41, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the References in this article
It was once told to me by an admin here on Wikipedia, that citation and or articles written by third parties are VALID citation and documentation. In this article are included citation ONLY by those who belong to the WGKF. Thus these citations and/or references are NOT valid. They express only one person or one organization's view. If any justice and fairness is to be considered, these references has no place here, and should be deleted. As an example: If I put forward the exact same citations and references of the Genseiryū Karate-do International Federation the problem would be obviously contradicting on not all but most of the information referenced here. A fair way which MIGHT be accepted if done properly, would be to include the contradictory information with correct citing and referencing to the information of the article. The GKIF was founded in 1959 and is the oldest organization of Genseiryū in the world and thus a solid backbone past of any practitioner who claims to have even the slightest relation to Genseiryū in any way, even if these peoples' claims are not true and no relation exist. It is also a very solid fact, that the first ever Genseiryū organization established by the founder of Genseiryū, Seiken Shukumine, was dissolved in late 1961 or early 1962 as a result of Mr. Shukumine's exit from karate in pursuit of Taido. Noone from the WGKF have any lineage back to that organization or any lineage, which can be traced back to the GKIF for that matter. The WGKF is founded by people who have no and never had any relations to that of Genseiryū. Noone should be allowed to rewrite the history in order to adjust the past to fit one's personal view or protect the existence of a new organization such as the WGKF (founded 2003). The history is exactly that: History. Any attempt to change it, would be keeping the facts and truth away from future generations. This is not only valid in regard to Genseiryū related articles but to all articles in Wikipedia. Peter Lee (talk) 14:56, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, primary sources should not be used if the material is in any way contentious. This is why we need to do a sentence by sentence breakdown of the article. -- Neil N   talk to me  15:08, 24 November 2009 (UTC)