Talk:World of A Song of Ice and Fire

proposing merge of all ASOIAF location articles
There are five location articles that still exist for ASOIAF on en.wiki: Westeros, Across the narrow sea, Cities in A Song of Ice and Fire, Strongholds of A Song of Ice and Fire. The_North (A Song of Ice and Fire) is prodded as having no meaningful content and I don't expect it to survive, so only four will remain (Ghis and Free Cities (A Song of Ice and Fire) are already merged).

All four articles are nice examples of fancruft: unsourced, full of original research and with excessive detail. All have been transwikied to the Song of Ice and fire wiki long ago and have seen no improvement for a long time.

I therefore propose to merge all four articles into a single Locations in A Song of Ice and Fire article and remove most of the cruft while I am at it. I will do so in 7 days if no response is received in the mean time. Yoenit (talk) 12:25, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


 * This is great and sensible idea; please just be sure to implement redirects for links which are in wide use or are likely to be sought out/searched by readers.&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 00:21, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how much trimming you intend to do, but I do worry somewhat that a combined article may be too long ... what about just leaving Westeros and Across the narrow sea with everything else somehow merged in? If you do plan to turn at least one of these articles into Locations in A Song of Ice and Fire, it is suggested that you use the Move tool to move an article to Locations in A Song of Ice and Fire to preserve the edit history rather than do a complete cut-and-paste (see WP:Cut-and-paste moves).&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 00:28, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I try to include redirects whenever possible, but I am still breaking wikilinks left and right. Plan on scanning all articles and fixing the links when I get the merging stuff over with (not only this, but also character articles). With regards to the length, I am not really sure. I personally use around 75 k as an upper limit for article length and all four articles combined are around 120 k now. There is a significant amount of duplicate and cruft material though (Biology and anthropology?), so we will see what happens. Yoenit (talk) 11:33, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I disagree. I actually found the articles quite a useful and interesting read. - Reanimated X (talk) 03:19, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think the issue is that we don't like the articles or their content, but the size, trivial detail, and complete lack of sources make the "articles" violate a few WP policies. We are unlikely to find reliable sources asserting the notability of much of the intricate location/character info here, but at least if we make an effort to make it concise, the material can avoid deletion.&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 04:57, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I recall seeing one of the references on a Harry Potter article being a chapter of one of the books. Couldn't we do that instead? - Reanimated X (talk) 05:13, 18 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Citing a page, chapter, or the novel itself is what we call using a primary source, which is great for direct quotes from the text or to back up plot details that might be questioned. But this doesn't establish the notability of specific details in a manner necessary to meet content guidelines. Unfortunately the notability of the novels themselves doesn't necessarily extend to every character, location, and plotline within them. In the strictest sense, usually all WP considers notable for fictional topics are the details discussed in reliable, verifiable secondary sources, like book reviews. And most reviews and articles I've seen discussing the series may mention Westeros, dragons, the Starks, and the Lannisters, but do not get into detail about various cities, the customs of Dorne, and stuff like that. But there is definitely value in much of what I'll call (for lack of a better term) the "extraneous" info collected here about the series, so if we can keep it in the form of concise lists of locations and people, it fits better into WP (lists have somewhat different guidelines).&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 05:31, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the clarification. - Reanimated X (talk) 05:58, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I have done some work on the merge (you can see it here), but I have run into a problem with the sections "Biology and anthropology" and "Faith". Neither belong in this article (they are not specific to Westeros) and definitely not in a hypothetical Locations in A Song of Ice and Fire article. There is not enough material to warrant separate articles and merging to A Song of Ice and Fire doesn't seem like a good idea either. Does anybody have a brilliant idea what to do with them, as I don't want to get rid of them altogether. Yoenit (talk) 11:51, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I support the merge of the location articles. For the "Biology and anthropology" and "Faith" sections that could possibly be a separate article like Themes in A Song of Ice and Fire or Ideas in A Song of Ice and Fire. Spidey  104 contribs 13:56, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I decided to merge everything to World of A Song of Ice and Fire for now, which should be general enough to incorporate everything. I am not against the creation of a "themes" article, but I think more (OR-free) material would be needed if we want it to survive an AFD. Yoenit (talk) 14:21, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * This seems like a great name for a merged article, thanks again for spearheading this. I'm also happy to see that it's not too long! It looks like I may have some more time to edit coming up, so I'll try to scour other ASOIAF articles for references that could be of use here.&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 16:26, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I think you mean "restrain himself" where you have "refrain himself." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.153.86.195 (talk) 23:21, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Reorg
What do we think about moving each of the "Specific locations" sections (King's Landing, Casterly Rock, etc) under the appropriate Region heading? I feel like when I'm reading about the North it makes sense to have Winterfell and the Wall there as well.&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 18:38, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems like an excellent idea. Yoenit (talk) 18:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Planet
Is the any information about the physical world (that is the planet) that these novels are set in? What kind of planetary system could result in such seemingly random seasonal changes with summers and winters lasting different periods. If such information exists it would be good to include it. I'm unsure whether the author has ever provided such information as the inhabitants may have no knowledge themselves.Puttanesca kol (talk) 10:55, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
 * If I remember correctly the author has stated that the length of the seasons has nothing to do with magic and will be explained in a future novel. With regards to the physical world and planetary system, there is very little information and absolutely nothing that could explain the seasons. Yoenit (talk) 21:19, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I actually think it's the other way around, that Martin has said the seasons have nothing to do with the specifics of the physical world and everything to do with magic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.70.24.185 (talk) 14:16, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Westeros in Game of Thrones = Britain?
The Westeros in the intro of Game of Thrones resembles the geography of the British mainland a lot, with The Wall situated roughly at the same location where Hadrian's Wall was located in history and King's Landing roughly at the spot where London is located in real life. Was this intended by the makers or just a coincidence? SpeakFree (talk) 20:57, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The TV series map should be identical to the map from the novels. The shape of the continent between the Neck and Dorne does indeed resemble the coastline of England somewhat, but I see little resemble beyond that. If Kings landing is London then Hadrians wall would located where the Neck is, not the Wall. I don't recall the author giving any information about the inspiration for the map, though he has said the War of the Roses was an inspiration for the storyline. Yoenit (talk) 23:45, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Stark and Lannister are takes on York and Lancaster, the two major warring houses in the War of the Roses]]. British history is a major influence but not the only one obviously so it is not as simple as Westeros=Britain.Gaius Octavius Princeps (talk) 22:10, 12 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Southern Westeros has the general shape of England but east and west are reversed. The peninsulae  corresponding to Wales and Cornwall, for example, are on the east side, south of King's Landing.  "Dorne" is a mirror image of Cornwall.  2001:558:6011:1:10B0:5FF8:FC2A:415C (talk) 04:54, 1 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Did Martin get the name Westeros from Wester Ross? Or is it just a massive coincidence? 86.134.91.155 (talk) 12:19, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Also bear in mind that Westeros is a continent roughly the size of South America - the extreme north is arctic tundra, whereas the extreme south contains deserts. Saint91 (talk) 21:35, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Ib
The Ibbenese and Ibbenese whalers are often referred to, but In doesn't appear on any maps. Illyrios tells Tyrion that the first Andals looked like Ibbenese, which might place it in that area of Essos. Anything more specific? --ESP (talk) 11:53, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
 * According to the ASOIAF wiki it is north of the free cities, in the shivering sea. Anything beyond that is speculation, such as this fanmade map . Yoenit (talk)

Citing the books directly, page number differences between UK and US versions
I was planning on sourcing some information on Harrenhal to the books using the handy Concordance on the citadel. However, there there appears to be a difference between page numbers in the US and the UK versions of the books. (see this for more information), leading to possible ambiguity when sourcing a specific page. What would be the best way to resolve this? Should we restrict ourselves to sourcing only from the US version? Should we allow both and specify which version is being used in the reference? Should we drop references to specific pages and use entire chapters instead (like the ASOIAF wiki does)? Yoenit (talk) 14:15, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * HRMPF, westeros.org is down again ATM, so I can't check your links; I use their wiki to find chapter page numbers quickly. As for your questions, I guess readers+editors can locate challenged material from the chapter names alone, but having a page number at hand makes it so much easier. Obviously, we can't give a page number for all global editions, so I guess it's best to either use (1) what most English-based readers around the world have -- and that's the US versions --, or (2) what the editors interested in editing this article have. I (from Germany) only have the US paperback editions of books 1–4, and the US hardcover edition of book 5, so that's what I'll be using for sourcing. This is also what the book Game of Thrones and Philosophy uses (which I'll use more for the Themes article than here). For a start, I've also thought about just adding the chapter names from my searchable PDF files for now since I don't always have my books with me for page numbers. When everything is said and done, though, the page numbers should be consistent, not US-UK-mixed. By the way, I've found rp this morning to help keep the amount of citations at bay in the future. – sgeureka t•c 17:28, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * (westeros.org is online again) Wow, your Concordance link will make things so much easier so that I'll probably have the enthusiasm and nerve to source this World article pretty quickly (not much before the weekend though). Their wiki's chapter page seems more completed than their static website. I intend to work from the bottom up for now, since the far-away stuff interests me more to me than Westeros. – sgeureka t•c 17:49, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

The Others
Darkfrog just made this change, which is a partial revert. I disagree with the change for the following reasons:


 * The sentence can now be interpreted as "The Others are the only monsters in this story", which is obviously incorrect (giants and kraken for example).
 * The original sentence already explained "The Others" are supernatural beings, which is at least as as much of an explanation as "monsters". The term "monster" is not a good description anyway, as the others are a race of intelligent creatures who are described as tall and graceful, with colorshifting armor (in the book). I would say for example dragons are more monstrous than "the others". Yoenit (talk) 08:12, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

No, the original sentence, "people do not believe in supernatural beings such as dragons or 'The Others,'" did not explain what the term "the Others" meant. Someone who has not read the books will have no idea whether the term refers to tall, graceful people with colorshifting armor, a tribe of ordinary humans, a group of trolls, or something out-of-universe, like another book or another set of characters. Using the term "the Others" by itself with no explanation is in-universe; it assumes that the reader will know what it means, and that is what we must not do. (Also, if we're being very strict, most of the people in the books do believe in dragons; they just think they're all dead. Tyrion specifically says that he believes in dragons because he's seen their bones.) If you don't believe that "monster" does the trick, then how about some of these:


 * "people no longer believe in supernatural beings such as the zombie-like 'Others' from their ancient legends."
 * "people no longer believe in magic or in supernatural beings, such as the 'Others' from their ancient legends."
 * "people believe that stories about magic and about the supernatural 'Others' who once terrorized the people of northern Westeros are only legends that have been exaggerated over time."
 * "people no longer believe in magic or in supernatural beings, such as the 'Others,' a race of ice creatures that once terrorized the humans of northern Westeros." Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:17, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Okay, forty-eight hours and no objections. She's goin' in! Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:26, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

National variety of English
Is there a reason why this thing is full of British spelling? It's set in a fantasy world and it was written by an American author. Can anyone make the case for British English? 21:48, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

seasons
Does GRRM explicitly talk of the cycle of the seasons being several times longer than earth anywhere? As this seems to be the case in the books but is not really discussed. It'd be good to add in an initial overview if it can be sourced. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:06, 2 June 2012 (UTC)


 * What I've only ever come across as right out of his mouth (in italic) was the following. It is currently summarized in the third paragraph of the Westeros section.
 * GRRM: The most conspicuous aspect of the world of Westeros in The Song of Ice and Fire is the nature of the seasons, the long and random nature of the seasons. I have gotten a number of fan letters over the years from readers who are trying to figure out the reason for why the seasons are the way they are. They develop lengthy theories: perhaps it’s a multiple-star system, and what the axial tilt is, but I have to say, “Nice try, guys, but you’re thinking in the wrong direction.” This is a fantasy series. I am going to explain it all eventually, but it’s going to be a fantasy explanation. It’s not going to be a science-fiction explanation. -- WT: In a fantasy you have to have a supernatural or mythic core to the story, rather than a scientific one. -- GRRM: Right. Yes. Exactly.
 * EW: This may be a silly question, but: When you think of the world you’ve created, where seasons last for years, where is it? It is another planet? -- GRMM: It’s what Tolkien wrote was “the secondary world.” It’s not another planet. It’s Earth. But it’s not our Earth. If you wanted to do a science fiction approach, you could call it an alternate world, but that sounds too science fictional. Tolkien really pioneered that with Middle Earth. He put in some vague things about tying it to our past, but that doesn’t really hold up. I have people constantly writing me with science fiction theories about the seasons — “It’s a double star system with a black dwarf and that would explain–” It’s fantasy, man, it’s magic.
 * JM: But world building. Like Frank Herbert [author of Dune] was inspired by political unrest and ecology and things. So I was wondering about the seasons. Was that based on something that interested you or did it just seem like a cool thing? -- GRMM: I think I liked the symbolism of it. Winter and summer and what they mean. We all have winters in our lives and it doesn't just mean the cold seasons. Summer is a time of growth and plenty and joy. And winter is a dark time where you have to struggle for survival.
 * And a bunch of reviewers note the seasons, e.g.: "A prominent feature of life in the Kingdoms is the protracted nature of the seasons, which can last for years at a time. As the narrative begins, a long, deceptively peaceful summer is coming to an end. And, as the characters repeatedly remind us, “Winter is coming.”"
 * – sgeureka t•c 14:25, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Aah ok, missed that. Yeah, and how it starts snowing in Kings Landing at the end of the latest book....Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:45, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Erratic Seasons - Westeros only?
As it stands you get the impression (from WP's articles and from the TV series) that it is Westeros - and Westeros only - that suffers from erratic seasons. Does this concur with a full reading of the text and/or anything the author has said? 31.53.186.67 (talk) 12:41, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

What a section on a location should mention
So that each location description has nearly the same kind of information down the road, here's a list of what this list should mention for each location, if applicable (this is also as a personal reminder). – sgeureka t•c 07:37, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * When the location is introduced (first "seen" through the eyes of a POV character, first mentioned in the narrative, or first named on a map)
 * Where the location is, erm, located plus borders (preferably according to the book maps, or according to the HBO viewer guide map, the upcoming map book, the narrative or per GRRM)
 * Martin's inspiration or aims for the location
 * Special geographic properties (climate, flora, fauna) or buildings (but not in WP:UNDUE minutiae)
 * People and culture (physical appearance, language, religion, clothing, customs)
 * Main house (but leave details to Characters in A Song of Ice and Fire), groups or organizations acting or originating from the location, fictional past
 * Relevance to the plot, i.e. interactivitiy with the main plots of Westeros and Daenerys' travels
 * Set design and filming of the TV adaptation

Uploading map from The Lands of Ice and Fire
Now that the map collection is out, would it be allowed to post a scan of the Known Map world to accompany the article? Or would it consist of copyright infringement? --Appledoze (talk) 06:56, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Article issues
Jon Snow's wiki underline link doesn't direct to the correct page. Instead it goes to Jon Snow, some TV presenter. not sure how to fix this, figured i'd let you all know — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.92.78.121 (talk) 16:49, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed, thanks for notifying us! Yoenit (talk) 18:03, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Lands Beyond the Wall size confirmed
in this | HBO featurete at 1:15 he clearly states the lands beyond the wall are the size of Canada. DJokerNr1 (talk) 03:11, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

a further observation. George RR never specified he meant area (as in sq miles) or just length of the continent, when it came to Westeror's comparison to South America. So the addition of square miles is an editors opinion, not sourced content. DJokerNr1 (talk) 21:19, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

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Change Title?
This article should be called "The Known World". Similiar to Lord of the Rings, "Middle-earth". - AffeL (talk) 14:23, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * That would be too generic. --ExperiencedArticleFixer (talk) 19:28, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

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Dragonstone hatnote
Having a hatnote on "Dragonstone" saying "for Dragonstone in Essos, see..." is not necessary. "Dragonstone" in Essos is an ad-hoc nickname given to an undistinguished location for one chapter; it is not noteworthy either in-universe or in the real world. Nobody looking for information on "Dragonstone" is going to be looking for that hill Daenerys camped out on one time. For the same reason, Winterfell doesn't have a hatnote saying "for the snow sculpture in the Eyrie, see...". AJD (talk) 16:52, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Metric
Can we add metric systems so non Americans can understand the lengths and distances mentioned in the article? Like the height and length of the Wall. Enjoyer of World (talk) 22:51, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Seven kingdoms
I presume that the seven kingdoms were inspired by the seven Anglo-Saxon kingdoms that later became England, and there might be a source for that here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/05/29/the-main-continent-in-game-of-thrones-is-modeled-on-the-british-isles/%3foutputType=amp But you have to be a subscriber to see it, and I'm not. Can somebody who is check please? And then add it to the article if it pans out. Richard75 (talk) 17:36, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:55, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
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