Talk:World tour of Ulysses S. Grant

The name
Let's keep it simple. I moved this here to conform to similar articles like King Kalākaua's world tour. --Coemgenus (talk) 12:45, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I removed the hyphenated name and placed it at the end. Sounded a bit tacky. A number of Grant articles place the name last. Still a simple title. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:53, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
 * OK by me. --Coemgenus (talk) 12:50, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Pope and Vatican City
The Pope today is a head of state of Vatican City, that was created on 11 February 1929 by the Lateran Treaty. During Grant's time and visit Vatican City was part of the Kingdom of Italy. This would be good for clarification. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:32, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Queen Victoria
Since Queen Victoria was a monarch she was head of state of Great Briton and its colonies or territories. She was not just a prominant person. More clarification is needed. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:38, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Lede image
Appreciate the image for the lede, but it should be in the lower section, perhaps as a double image along with the horses, which I love, btw. We should have a picture of Grant as the first/only picture in the lede. If you would, see if you can find an image of Grant that's best suited for this article. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 04:34, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Gwillhickers. There really is no lone image of Grant on his world tour. The closest is the one with the Chinese General. I am for only one image in the lede. Remember this article is about the places Grant went to on his tour, not just on Grant. I think the horses photo is best left in the lower section. I think that the lede needs it's own photo. A compromise might be to move the photo of Grant and the Chinese general into the lede section. Cmguy777 (talk) 04:43, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The article is about Grant, foremost, in this case, as it involves people and places around the world. The present image you added is good, as it, most importantly, shows Grant, and one of the people he visited on his tour. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:22, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Unsourced(?) information
-- regarding information you added, and then deleted when placed in a foot note:


 * "Grant turned to speculation on Wall Street but lost $150,000 after a stock panic in 1884, caused in part by the thievery and deception of his business associate Ferdinand Ward".

If this is unsourced, where did you find this information when you originally added it to the section? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 03:47, 1 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Cmguy777 (talk) 04:43, 1 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I originally put in the Hindley source. Ward is sourced in other biographies but not Hindley. No need to mention Ward anyway. Cmguy777 (talk) 04:43, 1 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Direct Quote:"He tried his hand at business, only to lose his life savings and be left $150,000 in debt after a stock panic in 1884." Hindley (2014) Cmguy777 (talk) 04:47, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Hindley does not mention that Ward stole the money and bankrupted Grant. Cmguy777 (talk) 04:48, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Then why did you use Hindley when you added this information to the section? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 16:53, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

New section
The theme of the new section, Historical appraisals, is redundant, as the entire article is a chronological account as well as an appraisal, of the tour, with accounts form Grant biographers and other historians. Any information that may be put here should instead be incorporated into the section to which it is most appropriate. There are already several instances where Grant's opinion is covered in the text. We shouldn't stick them all under one section as stand alone statements out of context. Let's not confuse Grant's opinions, which are biographical, with any historical evaluation of the tour.

I have no objection with adding historical evaluations about what Grant did or didn't accomplish on the tour from Grant biographers and other noted historians. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:28, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Section removed. Cmguy777 (talk) 05:07, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Reorganization of article
I reorganized the article dividing it up by years. I think this makes it easier for the readers to navigate through the article. Cmguy777 (talk) 04:14, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Looks good Cm'. I don't see any issues or anything we can't handle. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 04:23, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks Gwillhickers. I tried to give the article a framework. What amazes me is that Grant traveled to so many different countries, it is hard to organize in the article. Adding the years helps. Cmguy777 (talk) 05:08, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, many countries, indeed. Re: two sections : Scandinavia, Russia, Poland, Austria, and Paris and the Spain, Portugal, Gilbralter, and Paris sections. Unless there's more than a couple of things to say about a given country there really shouldn't be a specific mention of that country in a section title. Here we have two sections with nine specific countries mentioned in the titles. France and Paris should get its own section, while Spain, Portugal and Gilbralter might be named and covered under a single section. I'm not sure Poland should be named specifically at all, unless there's much to say there in comparison to other countries and the events involved. Coverage of Poland may merit its own couple of sentences, even a brief paragraph, but that doesn't necessarily mean it should be part of a section title, which should be somewhat general in its representation of the topics involved. Chernow, Brands or Smith, apparently, don't mention Poland, at least it's not listed in any of their indexes. White mentions "Warsaw" (Poland) in passing with Vienna and the Swiss Alps with nothing more. Young said Poland was uninteresting. We should give some second thoughts to some of the section names and perhaps consolidate. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 05:58, 2 November 2017 (UTC)


 * White (2016) page 589 lists the countries Grant visited. I suggest we use that map as a guide for titles in this article. Cmguy777 (talk) 15:45, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I made some title tweaks and moved information. Hope that helps. Thanks. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:20, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Looks okay. Will have to look into visits of all the various minor countries. i.e.Scandinavia, like Poland, may have not involved much either. These things will make themselves known as we go along. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:31, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't recall any sources mentioning Scandinavia and Poland as "minor countries". We just need to go by White (2016) on page 589. There is no distinction between minor and major countries. All we need to do is put that he traveled through them. We can't leave those countries out of the article. Most people in Grant's time did not travel 50 miles from their homes. Grant, the former president, is seemingly going everywhere. He was popular in almost every country, except Japan, i.e. the assissination plot. It is not neccessarily the countries Grant is going to it is that Grant is going to the countries meeting dignitaries, diplomacy, and traveling around the world. Unprecedented. Grant is acting like a 20th-21st Century President. I don't really have any issues with the current title set up. If Grant went to the country, it should be listed in the article. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:14, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Grant was fabulously greeted in Japan, and from what I've read, in a more sincere capacity than he received in England. Grant said his favorite visit was Japan, where he was received graciously and with cheering crowds. The intention was not to refer to any given country as a minor country, or to leave any of its coverage out of the narrative. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 03:04, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Chernow (2017) wrote on Grant's visit to Denmark. All I am saying is that the all the countries Grant visited should be listed in the article. As for Japan, why was there an assasination plot against him ? Cmguy777 (talk) 19:03, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Hardliners. The sources don't spell out their motives, but no doubt the would be assassins were xenophobic, racist, Japanese supremacists who resented the West and Grant's million dollar smile. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 03:51, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Map
How is there not a map detailing the course of his travels? We have maps for the stupidest, often fictional things on Wikipedia but not for this? Map nerds - get on it! --The Vital One (talk) 01:27, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Grant's tour at times had him hopping all over the map in apparent random order. He visited England twice, Paris three times, Egypt twice, etc. We could put a world map into the article, somewhere, but that would be a little impractical. There are links to every country and person visited, where a given map can be found. Thanks for your interest. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:33, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Why not a map with the locations he visited highlighted? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 21:30, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The map issue has to do with copyrighting. I have found no map on Wikimedia Commons. White (2016) has a map but it is copyrighted. Cmguy777 (talk) 17:30, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
 * A tour map could be made, using a public domain map, there are several good ones, with various routes of the tour outlined, and dated, superimposed over the PD map, but that would be quite an effort. Maybe a timeline would be handy. White, 2016, has one, but it's very general. If you want to take the time and mull through Young's account his TOC is a virtual time line. But there too, that's not an easy undertaking if you want to add more than just dates of arrival, visits, and departures. There's are many notable events, like Grant's reunion of veterans in Chicago, and then Philadelphia. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 03:38, 13 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I added the map by J.S. Kemp found in Around the World with General Grant Russell (1879) Volume II. It has it's own section. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:53, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Capitalization
Should the letter "T" in tour in the title be capitalized? The lead has it capitalized. MX ( ✉  •  ✎  ) 12:48, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
 * No. :-) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 21:30, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Lead image
Are there any reliable sources to back up the provenance of the lead image? The only copy I can find on the internet is from an unreliable Flickr account. Best, Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 21:29, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Lede image edit removed. Cmguy777 (talk) 17:27, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

The Napoleon quote...
... isn't from Chernow. Did you mean to cite this? If so, it should be properly contextualized as Young's recollection of what Grant said, rather than an exact transcription. :-) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 21:41, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

"Ugliness, slovenliness, filth and indolence" quote
I've just done a spot-check of this quote and can't find it in Chernow, though it is in White. It could be a Google Books issue? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 21:43, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
 * White reference kept. Chernow reference removed. Thanks. Cmguy777 (talk) 17:26, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Moved talk
Cut-paste from main Grant talk page: ...
 * We may be having photo issues here and best to talk about in the original article. As for Young, that photo was taken between 1897 and 1899, or between 18-20 years after the event. The photo I put in was at most 1888 or 9 years after the event. I think the 1897-1899 photo throws the article off. First, the article is on Grant's world tour, not Youngs. Second, it is 18-20 years after the fact and does not accurately depict how Young looked during the actual tour when he was 18-20 years younger. Cmguy777 (talk) 21:36, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Both images were created years after the tour. Photos are always better if there is more than one choice. Also, the drawing of Young has entirely different eyes than the real image of Young in the photo. Best to give the readers the actual image of Young. After the Civil War photos have always been used to best represent the subject. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:16, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes. Both were. The 1888 image is closer to the tour dates 1877-1879. The other photo is the lede photo of Grant and the Chinese general. It is from Flickr. It is of questionable sourcing and copyright. I don't think we should run it in the article. The reliability of the photo is in question. Cmguy777 (talk) 00:33, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The lede photo with Grant is available at The Library of Congress. The photo of Young is also from the Library of Congress. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:49, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * We need to add that URL to the lede photo. Flickr is too unreliable. Thanks. Cmguy777 (talk) 22:20, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks Gwillhickers. That has already been done. I am guessing when the page got over 12,000 hits someone was bound to find defects in the article. Cmguy777 (talk) 22:24, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for replacing it. I did do a Google Images search before posting here but came up with nothing. :-) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 21:14, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Lede photo loading issue
I am having a lede photo loading issue. The photo is not appearing in the article. Is anybody else having this issue ? Cmguy777 (talk) 22:36, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Not on my end. What browser are you using? A latest version? -- not that it should matter. Software for the last several years shouldn't cause any problems. Curious. Why are you thanking me if you haven't seen the image in question? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 05:27, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I was able to see the image before. I get other images on other article lede sections. My image problem only occurs for this article and happened after the article got over 12,000 hits when the article was on the Wikipedia front page. Can you Gwillhickers give me the link to the photo of the current image in the lede section ? Cmguy777 (talk) 18:05, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Loads fine for me. I think the problem is on your end. --Coemgenus (talk) 18:41, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
 * It could be. I am using Google browser. I found the link: . I just wanted to see if it was a Wikipedia problem or if other users could not load the photo. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:21, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The photo is loading on my Explorer browser, but not my Google. 172.77.28.134 (talk) 19:25, 12 November 2017 (UTC) Cmguy777 (talk) 21:49, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't seem to have anymore issues with the photo in Google Chrome. Cmguy777 (talk) 21:58, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

State of the article ?
I think the article is looking good. Are there any areas that need more context ? What has not been covered in the Grant Biographies, I have used Lowell (1879) in their places. Is the chronology correct? Grant's visit to the Scandinavian countries might need more context. Any suggestions or comments ? Cmguy777 (talk) 07:04, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Many important details still need to be added. Coverage of many of the stops along the tour lack specific dates, not even month dates in some cases.

World tour map 1879
The newly added World tour map, while giving us a general and graphic outline of Grant's tour, is rather second rate, at least the image of it is. When you zoom in on the map, which is already sort of fuzzy, it only gets worse. The only names that can be read are for oceans and continents. Virtually none of the city names can be read. Imo, the map serves no useful purpose. A reader can get the general idea of Grant's itinerary around the world just by perusing the TOC. If there is a markedly better image of this map to be had I'd welcome it. As it is, the map is little more than window dressing. No rush to delete, but let's look for a better map. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:18, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

✅ -- Gwillhickers (talk) 01:38, 19 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I appreciate the update on the map photo Gwillhickers. The 1879 map is the best we got so far. No copyright restrictions. It is a good map. Also the countries are accurately portrayed for the time period. Cmguy777 (talk) 03:08, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, very nice and definitely useful. --Coemgenus (talk) 14:28, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The map artist was J.S. Kemp. I could not find any information on J.S. Kemp. I think any information on J.S. Kemp would be useful for the article. Cmguy777 (talk) 07:09, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Unless there is something notable to say about Kemp, in relation to Grant, adding info for this artist, one among many employed by Young, would be out of place. There isn't anything remarkable about the map itself. In fact, Kemp may have just taken an existing generic world map, and simply added the routes of the tour to it. We can always add any info on Kemp to the image summary of the map. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:58, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I would not be opposed to maybe a footnote that mentions the numerous artists who contributed to Young's work. In all fairness to Kemp, given his association with The American News Company, the copyrighted map is likely something he constructed himself. But, if we're to speak an artist involved we should speak of them collectively. Seems like there were dozens. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:50, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Young does list the artists and engravers involved. Mentioning them in a section would be good. The map by Kemp looks original to me. Rand McNally made a world map in 1879. Had not Grant taken this world tour, much of this 19th Century world that no longer exists would be forgotten. Cmguy777 (talk) 23:37, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

New book
-- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:26, 26 September 2019 (UTC)