Talk:Worlds End State Park

World's End
Not sure how is best, but perhaps a place to link World's End in the article. A top hat, see also or inline.-- Stbalbach 05:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I added it as a See also. Ruhrfisch 05:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Apostrophes
I added a missing apostrophe to the opening statement about "Worlds [sic] End State Park", but later realised that the missing apostrophes were consistent throughout the whole article. Are they meant to be missing, or has someone just got really bad grammar? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dan m90 (talk • contribs) 19:44, 18 December 2006 (UTC).


 * The name, as it appears on the Pennsylvania Department of Conservation and Natural Resources web site, is apostrophe free. A search on iwon.com supports the spelling as originally spelled in the article. Dincher 19:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Notes on the article
This article incorporates essentially all of the information we could find on Worlds End State Park, so if there are missing topics or details, we are not sure they can be found. The semi-automated peer review script has been run on the article and it finds several apparent errors which are not actually there (as noted).

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question. You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Dincher 00:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.[?]
 * If there is not a free use image in the top right corner of the article, please try to find and include one. [?]
 * An image is provided in the info box and another image appears in the article. Both are free Dincher 00:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Per What is a featured article?, Images should have concise captions.[?] They seem to be concise to me. Dincher 00:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
 * While additive terms like “also”, “in addition”, “additionally”, “moreover”, and “furthermore” may sometimes be useful, overusing them when they aren't necessary can instead detract from the brilliancy of the article. This article has 28 additive terms, a bit too much.
 * The 28 additive terms includes the letters "also" in Loyalsock (Creek and State Forest), not the actual word "also".
 * Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.[?]

Good article
This article read very well and meets all of the GA criteria... My only suggestion is that the Natural history section should come before the History section. Wish you all the best with your editing... Johnfos 03:38, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Map
Here is the base map, comments? Ivory is the park, green is Loyalsock State Forest, and brown is private land. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 19:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks good for now. Will the townships be labled? Dincher (talk) 00:21, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Yes, the top is Forks Twp, the bottom is Shrewsbury Twp. I will try labels on the dam etc. too, but may find it easier to add numbers and a key. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * What do you think now? May have to WP:BYC? Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 23:06, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I like it alot. Maybe have the text for the creeks in blue. It looks good. Dincher (talk) 23:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I changed the water labels to blue - good suggestion. I also switched the distance scale to match the font of the labels. I will add it to the article infobox next. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 00:06, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The map looks great! Good work. Dincher (talk) 21:08, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I know originally there was talk of including the trails, but there are a lot of them and I would have had to draw the hiking trails in by hand, so I left them out (otherwise too crowded / busy). Since the roads and some other features are now shown in the map, I might try tweaking some of the trail descriptions so the map at least gives an idea of their general location. Also I am not sure the organized tent camping area is mentioned in the article. On to Black Mo! Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 22:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The tent section is mentioned in one sentence in the accomodations section. As for trail maybe include Loyalsock Trail since it passes through the park. The other trails could have better descriptions relating to the map. I'll leave that for you since you made the map and know more about the trails than do I. Dincher (talk) 22:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, the Loyalsock Trail is the major trail too, so it makes sense to have that one if nothing else. I think I can add it in dark green as a line. Of course it goes through some of the text already there. It may take me a few days - busy IRL and the LT is winds all around. See here (big PDF). Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:39, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. No hurry either. We'll probably want to include the Allegheny Front Trail on the Black Mo map. Dincher (talk) 01:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think one or two trails per map is doable. For example, Colton Point and Leonard Harrison would have the Turkey Path between them and the Pine Creek Rail Trail along the creek. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, the trail is on the map - what do you think? Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 16:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The addition of the trail is the final piece. Very good. I can see now that anymore trails and the map would be too crowded. Dincher (talk) 20:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Glad you like it - I will do Black Mo and then look at the Presque Isle map to see if we can get a consistent style for the PA state park maps, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 21:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Possible wildlife ref
I have been looking for more sources on wildlife and came across this on Sullivan County. It mentions the park in several places and mentions some species other sources place in the park, and it mentions some other species, but not explicitly in connection with the park. So I am not sure about including these species in the article - what do you think? Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 23:40, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I say go for it. Especially any specifics from the park. I will have to print it and look at it tomorrow. Dincher (talk) 01:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It is over 120 pages - I did the search in Adobe for Worlds End (in there 4 times, once as a ref). The species are listed in Appendix VI on p. 109 ff. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:23, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Of the animals listed, I think Great Blue Heron is easy to add, and Northern Harrier is probably fine to add too can hunt in the park, if likely to breed elsewhere). I am not as sure about Virginia Rail as it seems to be a marsh bird chiefly. I can imagine Water Shrew as the park has several small cold streams. There are also several insects and many plants listed, but I am uncertain as to which might be in the park. I imagine the darners (dragonflies) are there. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:27, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I also noticed that we don't have the Eastern Gray Squirrel in the article. I will work on adding the animals and other critters now. I read the whole thing and found what you found. Dincher (talk) 19:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Didn't add any bugs. Perhaps they could go with the fishes. Dincher (talk) 19:53, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for catching the grey squirrel and adding those. I think adding insects after fish is fine - they are all types of dragonfly I think, but some do not have articles. Also need to add the new ref. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 21:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Done and done. Dincher (talk) 22:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - how about putting all the refs at the end of the first Wildlife paragraph? So

...and Gray Squirrels are seen fairly regularly.[37][38] Less common creatures include Bobcats, Coyote, Fishers, River Otters, and Timber Rattlesnake.[36][37][38] Loyalsock Creek is home to native Brook Trout and Black Bass which feed on a variety of insects including mosquitos, dragonflys, and gnats.[36][38][39] would become

''...and Gray Squirrels are seen fairly regularly. Less common creatures include Bobcats, Coyote, Fishers, River Otters, and Timber Rattlesnake. Loyalsock Creek is home to native Brook Trout and Black Bass which feed on a variety of insects including mosquitos, dragonflys, and gnats.[36][37][38][39]'' What do you think? Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:07, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Go idea. I shall do it now. Dincher (talk) 19:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks - I added it after the harrier and heron too. I am not sure about including all 7 authors of the Inventory - using et al. is OK by most style guides when it is this many authors, but I usually list the full title (Meginness) or all authors. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 19:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Either way is fine with me. Maybe we should wait until PR or FAC? Or you could change it if you want. Dincher (talk) 21:08, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I am fine waiting until PR - will work on Geology and Climate later today. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 21:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Last push
I finished the Geology and climate section (for now at least). The Recreation section has several fairly short subsections and I was wondering of we wanted to make it look more like Black Moshannon State Park? That just has three subsections: "Cabins, camping, swimming, and picnics", "Boating, fishing, and hunting" and "Trails".

I made the fishing info shorter by moving the annual precipitation and acid rain information up to Geology and climate. I need to add that Double Run is also approved trout waters in the park. The camping section needs a sentence or two on the organized group tenting (3 sites for 30 people each). I also found some good quotes to perhaps add in - from this DCNR press release when the new park manager was appointed: ''“Camping really is king here at Worlds End, and the rustic cabins are especially popular,” said Kocher, who noted all units already were reserved for the upcoming Memorial Day weekend. “We also have plenty of picnics and reunions, many of them drawing generation after generation, year after year.” (probably edit it down to just Camping really is king here at Worlds End, and the rustic cabins are especially popular ... We also have plenty of picnics and reunions, many of them drawing generation after generation, year after year.'') Not sure if this would be good as an overall intro quote or perhaps use it as an intro to a new "Cabins, camping, swimming, and picnics" section. I also have two quotes from my Hike Pennsylvania book, one on how if you want to hike at Worlds End, hiking here means climbing as an intro to the trails section. The other is a quote that as soon as you arrive in the park you hear the rush of Loyalsock Creek which might be a good intro to a "Whitewater, fishing, and hunting" section. When all this is done, will need to take a look at the lead an probably expand it a bit too. What do you think? Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 20:06, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. I gotta run to "work". I'll expand on my thoughts soon. Dincher (talk) 20:10, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I added the hiking quote, the info on Double Run and organized group tenting, and did some copyedits. I note there are seven trails - Black Mo has six. Worlds End trail could be moved up to the name section if needed (as it goes to the Pioneer Road and Worlds End vista). I also note we make no mention of winter sports - smowmobiling and cross country skiing. Nor do we mention Interpretive programs - here. Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 20:32, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think I added the missing bits. Now we need to reorder it. Will work on that in a bit. Dincher (talk) 21:51, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It's down to 3 sections now. Dincher (talk) 21:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I moved the winter sports to trails as that is where it is in Black Mo, plus it referes to trails. Do you want to add the quote about camping and picnics at the beginning of "Cabins, camping, swimming, and picnics" or not? What about adding According to John Young, "As soon as you enter Worlds End State Park, you hear it: the never-ending rush of the waters of Loyalsock Creek." from Young's "Hike Pennsylvania" as the first sentence of the fishing paragraph? Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 00:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for fixing the mistakes. You can go ahead with the quotes. You have a good idea of where you want them and that is fine with me. Dincher (talk) 00:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * OK thanks, I added both quotes and a sentence on interpretive and educational programs in Ecology. Please let me know what think of these - I am not offended if either quote is removed or if the programs sentence is tweaked or moved elsewhere. When do you want to take it to PR? Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Minor spelling variation
The article uses both the spaced clear cut and the unspaced clearcut spelling variations (but fortunately not the third, hyphenated, version). I see that clear cut might read a bit better where it is used, but since neither usage is in a quote or reference, I think a single spelling is best. Use of the unspaced clearcutting within the article and the wikilinked article could influence the authors' decision. -- Michael Devore (talk) 00:22, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for catching this. Do you think it should be clear cut or clearcut? It doesn't matter to me. The wiki article goes with clearcut. Dincher (talk) 00:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks Michael! I think this may be my fault - sorry. Since the article is clearcut, let's go with the one word version. Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 00:31, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Did I get the only example? I am surprised it made it this far. It was a redirect and a possible misspelling. Dincher (talk) 00:35, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Looks good to me now. -- Michael Devore (talk) 00:45, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Dincher (talk) 00:59, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Since I'm in nitpick mode, I have found another spelling variation which is a lot like the first one. Throughout the article, the spelling whitewater is used. In the last lead paragraph, though, it is spelled "white water rafting". Google find all three variants of spaced, unspaced, and hyphenated for whitewater rafting, even when limited to .edu and Google Books usage. I think unspaced is perhaps best here, because the article already has "whitewater boating" and "whitewater slalom" in it, but I'll leave it up to you guys since I try to leave style decisions to the authors and there may be good reason to use the space in the rafting reference. -- Michael Devore (talk) 01:19, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Fixed it too. Dincher (talk) 01:24, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks to both of you Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 02:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Updates before TFA

 * Mar. 2008 streambank stabilization
 * July 2009 Green Camping demo in park
 * Jan. 2010 flooding in park
 * Mar. 2010 funds to repair Canin Road in park
 * Aug. 2010 adelgid treatment of hemlocks
 * Sept. 2010 Fence replacement to stop erosion by cabins
 * Sept. 2011 damage to park from flooding, state forest roads closed
 * Sept. 2011 Lee and Irene damage - DCNR
 * Oct. 2011 Lee caused $3+ million in damage to DCNR parks forests
 * Sept. 2012 sludge in creek from Marcellus Shale gas pipeline

Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 23:33, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Really Wikipedia?
I know this may seem trivial, but did Wikipedia not have any other articles about the Apocalypse than about a park whose name sounds apocalyptic but otherwise has nothing to do with the Apocalypse to feature on December 21, 2012? Unless they are going for the irony that the Mayans made absolutely no prediction of the end of the world, it seems like they could have come up with something better. Just needed to get this off my chest. Sorry if it offends anyone, which I don't think it will. I am not attempting to be disruptive. 98.179.165.213 (talk) 01:43, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comment. To be on the Main Page as Today's Featured Article (TFA) an article has to be a WP:FA and cannot have already been featured on the Main Page. Yesterday's TFA was 2012 phenomenon, which made it pretty clear the apocalypse is not likley to happen today. Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:11, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comment. We were surprised when we found out it was going to be featured. I am retired from wiki and stumbled across the fact that this article was going to be TFA. It took me even longer to realize the reason. Gerry D (talk) 06:08, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Personally, I applaud the rather clever choice of having this article on the main page. It is informative and injects a little dry wit in the process.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk.  cntrb. 05:05, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed, it's a really well executed subtle joke. Since Wikipedia can't ( and really shouldn't ) go "Hurr-durr, the world is gonna end today" all over the main page, this is a great nod to the supposed event that was scheduled on 21st. Ezhuks (talk) 10:39, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree completely with Ezhuks! There was a long discussion on WP:TFAR, in case you are interested. You can influence what will be scheduled, did you know? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:07, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The long discussion about the 2012 article was a very thoughtful one; for one thing, one reason the decision was made to run it yesterday instead of today was that running it a little ahead of time might help calm down people who were sincerely worried about the end of the world. And given that we are all still here, this article was particularly well-chosen for today, IMHO.   Montanabw (talk) 21:41, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, I concede that if it was meant as a joke, then it was quite clever. However, if it was chosen because Wikipedia couldn't find anything else, then it was ridiculous. 98.179.165.213 (talk) 17:10, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

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