Talk:Wrangler (University of Cambridge)

Obviously the topics now treated on this page should be treated in separate articles. Should we (1) make this a disambiguation page, or (2) treat one of those topics on this page, with terse links at the top directing the reader to the other pages, and if the latter, which one should be treated here? Michael Hardy 01:15, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

I remember 2:1 and 2:2 in 1977
I remember 2:1 and 2:2 Mathematics degrees being awarded at Cambridge University in 1977, so I'm not sure where the original article gets its 1995 date from. User:Al1g

The class-lists from 1911 to 1994 inclusive, as published in the Cambridge University Reporter and reprinted in the Historical Register Supplements, show an undivided second class in Parts IA/IB/I/II (Part I being divided into IA and IB part way through this period) of the Mathematical Tripos, Part II being the part that used the titles Wrangler / Senior Optime / Junior Optime during this period. (Part III used the Distinction / Pass classification from when it started in 1935 until 1999, with Merit being added in 2000.) From 1995 the second class was divided in Parts IA/IB/II. See, for example, the 1977 class-lists, Reporter, 1976-77, pp 871-875. (Note that it is always the examinations, not the degrees, that are classified at Cambridge, although the final year's classification is generally quoted as if it were a degree classification.) In the pre-1911 Tripos, the titles of Wrangler / Senior Optime / Junior Optime were used in Part I (with the published order of merit rather than numbered divisions, and the women's names published below the men's with details of where they went in the men's order of merit), while Part II had each of classes I, II and III divided into divisions 1, 2 and 3, for a total of nine divisions. (For a few years immediately before 1911 there was a transitional period with lists under both the Old and New Regulations.) Joseph Myers 20:35, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I believe that degrees were split into 2:1 and 2:2 from 1985. Oxford followed suit the following year. However, Oxford and Cambridge had for a number of years been required to provide information as to whether a second class degree would have been an upper or a lower second - this was necessary as a 2:1 was a common entrance requirement for PhDs and to receive postgraduate grants. Thus there was an unofficial split in the second class degree. I was at Oxford in the mid 1980s, and one could be provided with more detailed information and after the examination (e.g. the grades obtained), and in some subjects students would be ranked in order. However, this information was not published. Thus someone gaining a second who heard they were in the upper division may well describe their degree as a "2:1" on their CV (presumably many who came toward the bottom also made this claim). I am not sure what the situation was at Cambridge, but may have been similar.207.47.69.34 (talk) 19:45, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with the early dates for division of degree classes offered by some contributors. I graduated in Mathematics at Cambridge in 1988 and remember that the official Part II exam results (posted outside the Senate House) only showed division into 1st, 2nd, 3rd and the rather rare Ordinary (i.e. no Honours). I've put a citation needed tag against the date currently quoted in the article (1985). Unless anyone can challenge the evidence offered by Joseph Myers above, then I suggest changing this date to 1995. FrankP (talk) 23:11, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Category
Is there merit in a Senior Wrangler category? Mpntod 23:31, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)

Fellowship
Hardy, in "A Mathematician's Apology", alludes to the fact that a second wrangler would at one time have automatically gained a Fellowship of Trinity. Can anyone provide more detail on this? RMoloney 12:35, 1 Apr, 2005

Doffing Caps
I've removed the following text: "The tradition of distinguishing the senior wrangler does, however, continue unofficially, with the Examiners doffing their hats to him/her during the reading out of the Part II results in Senate House. The position of highest scoring student remains fiercely fought over throughout each part of the tripos, with the holders usually receiving not some little prestige." This tradition no longer takes place. Bluap 08:16, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Whether it takes place in a particular year is up to the particular Chairman of Examiners; sometimes it does (as in 2004), sometimes it doesn't (as with 2005; presuming the Chairman of Examiners did choose not to doff his cap rather than forgetting to do so, as he forgot to read out the second column of Wranglers until after the Senior Optimes Division 1). Joseph Myers 17:14, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Minor edits
I've just made a number of minor cleanup edits. I would have liked to clean up the "Discussion" (now more accuratly called "Sources"), as it seems somewhat untidy to me, however I'm not sure of the best way to do this without reducing it to just listing the two books. --me_and 5 July 2005 22:35 (UTC)

Comparison with Oxford
I have removed the following ludicrous sentence: "The culture of fierce competition at mathematics exams was typical of Cambridge for a long time, and for this reason Cambridge, rather than Oxford, is associated with most of England's best mathematical and scientific minds". The Cavendish has had more Nobel Prizes but the competiveness of the internal exams is unlikely to be the reason. However if there is any evidence for the assertion, I will happily reinstate the sentence. Point-scoring against Oxford is best done in sport. JMcC 14:25, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Why are they called wranglers?
Any idea as to the etymology? The OED lists its first use in 1750 but does not explain why. --Grouse 15:08, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Why abolished?
The article states that the custom was abolished, but doesn't say why.--75.83.140.254 02:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Milk wrangler
I added this: because I've seen articles about car searches, & they're called wranglers, & I saw a video credit a milk wrangler, once. (Believe it, or not...) Trekphiler 08:53, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Wrangler (profession), in North America, is one who professionally searches for and/or handles particular products on film and television programs, and music videos such as custom cars, or animals, or milk

Tenth Wrangler
What would be the significance of "tenth wrangler" which is mentioned in the biography of Beilby Porteus? He graduated from Christ's College in 1752. This sounds rather lowly compared with the main definition of the word in the article, yet is mentioned as if it were a significant achievement. Beilby graduated as B.A. in 1752 as tenth wrangler, and being elected fellow later the same year, shortly afterwards was appointed esquire bedel. – Agendum (talk) 20:42, 1 March 2009 (UTC)


 * It means he got the tenth-highest first-class degree in mathematics that year. This would still have been a pretty good achievement - how good depends on how many other people there were in his year, but given that he got elected to a college fellowship on the back of it, probably quite good. -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 22:19, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Bridge Throwing
Is it just me, or do they not throw the highest-scoring Mathmo off the Queens' College bridge? Maybe I'm misremembering it. Still would be worth adding if anyone else can confirm its veracity. Spuddddddd 27Sep12 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.102.132.144 (talk) 11:07, 27 September 2012 (UTC)